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General discussion@GOG: No Offline Installers anymore?(222 posts)(222 posts)
(222 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted February 17, 2021
low rated
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Mori_Yuki: First of all thank you for explaining this to me! Since achievements are integrated in the code, I still don't understand why the same can't be done without Galaxy. Transmitting that data to this website, that is. I'm not talking about displaying popups in-game or any of that stuff. An immersion breaking distraction which I can very well do without.

My point is this: With only one set of files, both containing **achievements, both being able to access GOG's servers to transmit and receive data from it, there is no need for a separate set of patches or adapted DLC either. Which usually take longer to be dispatched to the website versus the client. Both parties get to enjoy what the other one's got access to and both should be happy. What's important is that GOG would profit most from this. Consider how several hundreds of terrabytes of server space could be saved! I would also assume that it takes lots of work off the shoulders of developers having to adapt their patches and updates for both.
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Panaias: If I understood your idea correctly, the big difference is one: internet connection :)

What's happening currently is that when the game decides a goal was achieved, it internally routes a call to the specific client which you launched your game through, so that the client can pop up the achievement banner with info provided from the game. In this scenario, internet connection is not required. The logic for the achievement (e.g. player resurrected 100 times) is within the game code. The way to display the achievement (e.g. "You are a level-100 zombie!") is within the client code. Both game and client are running locally so no internet is required for the achievement to happen and appear.

Your idea, while interesting in theory, would require an always online connection to the internet while playing. When the achievement logic would be triggered, it would have to be transmitted over network e.g. to GOG's servers so that it becomes available (to display on the web, to get permanently registered in your profile, to brag to your friends, whatever else). And then your game's code should get a reply from GOG's server over network to get the achievement confirmation back and display it in-game.

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Mori_Yuki: So it should be possible is what you are saying. Correct?
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Panaias: It's not impossible (please read above), but also it's not desirable. Besides "locking" your game to require an online connection (which is a form of DRM), there are other issues such as your own connection quality, speed, bandwidth limits, etc. So imagine playing and defeating a super challenging secret boss. After you defeat it, you leave and walk 10 minutes to get to the next area. And then boom an achievement appears "You are a secret-boss slayer!". OK, I might have gone a bit far there, but you get my point :)
More realistically the achievement would fail after 3 retries that take a max of 1 minute, and you end up not even getting the achievement.
Posted February 17, 2021
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kohlrak: More realistically the achievement would fail after 3 retries that take a max of 1 minute, and you end up not even getting the achievement.
Exactly, which is kind of the opposite of what "achievements" are there for.
Posted February 17, 2021
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Slick_JMista: let's give them the benefit of a doubt and hope they bounce back from their cybersecurity fiasco.
I'll start giving them the benefit, the instant they announce broad telepresence programmes and international hires, tax credits be dammed and thrown into the fire.

Because right now, nobody in a sane mindset is going to join as a Junior C++ dev and move to Poland as is. Wages, conduct, benefits, living in a democratically compromised country currently undergoing international investigation, being in massive demand, association by guilt/guilt by association, and a whole lotta other things would make most reconsider.

The way I'd see it, you'd have to have absolutely nothing better to do with your time and nothing to lose to move the 1-10,000km to Warsaw, and be okay with a potential stain on your CV. Especially with travel restrictions as is as of this writing.
Posted February 17, 2021
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Panaias: If I understood your idea correctly, the big difference is one: internet connection :)
Exactly! Internet connection, without client, if I may add. :-)

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Panaias: Your idea, while interesting in theory, would require an always online connection to the internet while playing. When the achievement logic would be triggered, it would have to be transmitted over network e.g. to GOG's servers so that it becomes available (to display on the web, to get permanently registered in your profile, to brag to your friends, whatever else). And then your game's code should get a reply from GOG's server over network to get the achievement confirmation back and display it in-game.

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Mori_Yuki: So it should be possible is what you are saying. Correct?
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Panaias: It's not impossible (please read above), but also it's not desirable. Besides "locking" your game to require an online connection (which is a form of DRM), there are other issues such as your own connection quality, speed, bandwidth limits, etc. So imagine playing and defeating a super challenging secret boss. After you defeat it, you leave and walk 10 minutes to get to the next area. And then boom an achievement appears "You are a secret-boss slayer!". OK, I might have gone a bit far there, but you get my point :)
I do get your point. :-) I also agree that always online requirement as well as mandatory outgoing connection to even play a game is DRM. Or could be considered being a DRM measure and used as such. Though most times its use is to collect data or reports ... We got a number of games here crashing shortly after startup when disallowing outgoing connection(s). I work around this by sending the request into an endless loop between local network and network zone or router and network zone. That being the case, and for whatever other reason a connection has to be established, it is difficult to see not to make achievements etc. work without client.

This is where my idea falls apart. While not strictly necessary, even Steamworks and Galaxy must store data on a local drive when there's no access to the internet available or one can't be established, being online would be the only option in order to enjoy real-time tracking and unlocking and all that other stuff going on behind the curtains. If there is none there is no display in-game, because it may or may not require an active connection, achievements don't have to exist in the first place.

Taking into consideration all you and others had to say about this, my personal summary is that while it might seem like a good idea, actually it is not. It would be difficult to argue against an always online requirement if this idea had any merits or indeed any practical use. By that I mean connecting to a MP session, which is also locked in some games, as long as Galaxy isn't presently installed and running. For that there is no real argument why not at least this shouldn't be possible without Galaxy in games also sold here, granting access to MP, without that client. GOG should at least give us non-client users that much.

Thanks to all of you for taking your time to reply answering my questions and clarifying things for me!
Posted February 17, 2021
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Slick_JMista: let's give them the benefit of a doubt and hope they bounce back from their cybersecurity fiasco.
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Darvond: I'll start giving them the benefit, the instant they announce broad telepresence programmes and international hires, tax credits be dammed and thrown into the fire.

Because right now, nobody in a sane mindset is going to join as a Junior C++ dev and move to Poland as is. Wages, conduct, benefits, living in a democratically compromised country currently undergoing international investigation, being in massive demand, association by guilt/guilt by association, and a whole lotta other things would make most reconsider.

The way I'd see it, you'd have to have absolutely nothing better to do with your time and nothing to lose to move the 1-10,000km to Warsaw, and be okay with a potential stain on your CV. Especially with travel restrictions as is as of this writing.
I saw a job advertisment thismorning for 10 bucks an hour. IIRC, they were asking for 3 years of experience. Gotta love rural areas. Oh, and have we forgot about the FastAPI guy?
Posted February 18, 2021
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anzial: You assume they'll keep their promise. However, if no one reacts to increased delays to updates in offline installers, eventually GOG will decide that they are indeed redundant and will remove them. The time to protest is now otherwise if no one does (or very few), GOG will inevitably eradicate the extra hassle of maintaining offline installers because no one (or very few) care about them.
I don't assume anything, I said it would be a big deal if they went back on that promise. Kind of the opposite of assuming they never will, no?

Protest all you like, let GOG know how you feel. I doubt I'd oppose anything you say about making sure offline installers are patched, that's important to me too. I'm just saying I wouldn't assume this means much as far as long-term policy. People on here tend to be extremely cynical about GOG's actions, and I don't think it's always justified, but hey you never know. Companies have done crappier things before, that's for sure.
Posted February 18, 2021
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StingingVelvet: I'm just saying I wouldn't assume this means much as far as long-term policy. People on here tend to be extremely cynical about GOG's actions, and I don't think it's always justified, but hey you never know. Companies have done crappier things before, that's for sure.
OK, let me put it another way. The more people show they care about this issue, the less likely the shitty outcome. If GOG judges that there won't much of a backlash if they do away with offline installers, they will remove them. Haven't you said it yourself - it's a difficult, taxing task, costing extra to maintain? Business is always about the bottom line, cutting cost and offline installers are absolutely on the table, no doubt about it.
Post edited February 18, 2021 by anzial
Posted February 18, 2021
Oh well, I may as well chip in with a sad face here and add a worried face after :-( :-S
Posted February 18, 2021
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anzial: OK, let me put it another way. The more people show they care about this issue, the less likely the shitty outcome. If GOG judges that there won't much of a backlash if they do away with offline installers, they will remove them. Haven't you said it yourself - it's a difficult, taxing task, costing extra to maintain? Business is always about the bottom line, cutting cost and offline installers are absolutely on the table, no doubt about it.
While I agree that GOG customers should show they care a lot about offline installers, I don't agree that it is a given that GOG would remove them, unless they become truly desperate, and it is a survival cost cutting measure ... at which point, we would be faced with tolerating Galaxy installer downloads or GOG dying. I'd rather they not die. DRM-Free is still DRM-Free even if its a Galaxy based download ... it's not perfect, but still better than DRM.

So for many of us, until we see reason to believe otherwise, not just a bunch of assumptions and very few facts, we will give GOG the benefit of the doubt about offline installers.

You can bet, that any permanent or significant stoppage of offline installers, will result in a huge protest here, making the complaints about the loss of the old GOG Downloader, very small by comparison ... many tolerated that because they have been happy enough with browser downloads or happy enough getting offline installers through Galaxy ... Galaxy currently serves up both types.

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LET GOG KNOW HOW YOU FEEL BY VOTING
https://www.gog.com/wishlist/site/keep_the_gog_downloader_and_keep_it_up_to_date

The wishlist is up to 1938 votes now. A small number of votes compared to some other votes here, but not an insignificant number of customers to make unhappy.
Post edited February 18, 2021 by Timboli
Posted February 18, 2021
... again with the doomsday scenarios. Fine, I'll bite.

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Timboli: at which point, we would be faced with tolerating Galaxy installer downloads or GOG dying. I'd rather they not die. DRM-Free is still DRM-Free even if its a Galaxy based download ... it's not perfect, but still better than DRM.
To each his own, but I've never used a client in my life and I don't ever plan to. I don't think I'm the only one that's here on GOG because of that aspect as well. While I would not call a client DRM, assuming you only have to use it to download DRM-free installers, I would simply not use it anyway.

Besides, I think countless others have mentioned it before, but, since Galaxy is not available for Linux, not all of us would have much of a choice anyway.
Posted February 18, 2021
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Timboli: I don't agree that it is a given that GOG would remove them, unless they become truly desperate, and it is a survival cost cutting measure ..
Cost cutting is pretty much never about survival, it's always about profits. I'm 100% confident that someone at GOG is advocating getting rid of offline installers, and has been doing so for a while, and use precisely same arguments you've provided.
Posted February 18, 2021
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WinterSnowfall: To each his own, but I've never used a client in my life and I don't ever plan to. I don't think I'm the only one that's here on GOG because of that aspect as well. While I would not call a client DRM, assuming you only have to use it to download DRM-free installers, I would simply not use it anyway.

Besides, I think countless others have mentioned it before, but, since Galaxy is not available for Linux, not all of us would have much of a choice anyway.
As you probably know, I have no love for Galaxy and don't use it, certainly not in its bloated state.

And yes it would be devastating for Linux customers if all offline installers were removed, and that may very well be the saving grace for the rest of us ... though I guess they could just provide offline installers for the Linux customers ... which might be enough to make me switch to Linux for many of my games.

So I suspect we are safe ... at least until they make a Linux Galaxy client ... don't hold your breath.
Posted February 18, 2021
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anzial: Cost cutting is pretty much never about survival, it's always about profits. I'm 100% confident that someone at GOG is advocating getting rid of offline installers, and has been doing so for a while, and use precisely same arguments you've provided.
Well, if GOG ditches offline installers, I'm officially gone. Along with lots (most?) of other members who are strong supporters of GOG from early on.

I'm no business expert, but I believe GOG could never handle missing all of us. And if they go the client-only way thinking that they have a sufficient userbase for it, they're wrong. There are better clients elsewhere, with a ton more games at usually better prices.

I'm staying with GOG all these years, knowing that I've probably paid a lot more for the DRM-free tax. So, I would like to give GOG the benefit of the doubt. Also, multiple staff members in the past have clearly stated that GOG will never give up on DRM-free backup installers, so doing otherwise would be a huge official lie.
Posted February 18, 2021
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Timboli: While I agree that GOG customers should show they care a lot about offline installers, I don't agree that it is a given that GOG would remove them, unless they become truly desperate, and it is a survival cost cutting measure ... at which point, we would be faced with tolerating Galaxy installer downloads or GOG dying. I'd rather they not die. DRM-Free is still DRM-Free even if its a Galaxy based download ... it's not perfect, but still better than DRM.
Taking it to it's logical extension "DRM-Free is still DRM-Free even if its a Steam based download. And you get a Linux version, working achievements and 10x the catalogue to choose from." Not much of a sales pitch... The biggest cost sink for GOG by far has been Galaxy software development, hence why the endless stream of job openings like this. The cost of automating a simple script that zips up files that are already installed is literally nothing compared to the total sum that GOG must have spent from Galaxy 1.0 Beta over the past 6 years, adding new servers just to handle achievements & cloud saves, writing all the galaxy API's plus developer documentation, having to create then update galaxy.dll files to handle client-less gameplay, UI development, beta testing, matchmaking for multiplayer, etc. It ain't the offline installers that are expensive. See itch.io.
Post edited February 18, 2021 by BrianSim
Posted February 18, 2021
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anzial: Cost cutting is pretty much never about survival, it's always about profits. I'm 100% confident that someone at GOG is advocating getting rid of offline installers, and has been doing so for a while, and use precisely same arguments you've provided.
Being 100% confident says it all really.
You should never count your chickens until they hatch. You can be reasonably confident of something based on logistics, but to go the whole 100% hog, just puts you amongst the Flat Earthers and other conspiracy believers etc.

And even if 100% true, they wouldn't be using precisely the same arguments as I provided, because mine were couched quite significantly. They would have to declare themselves as being in dire straits, to get any sympathy from me ... I'm not going to accept that kind of change just because they decided to make it.

As for any cutting never being about survival, once again you are dipping into the conspiracy basket. That may be fairly true when a company has been taken over by another or merged, but is usually less true of a company without such changes.

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BrianSim: Taking it to it's logical extension [i]"DRM-Free is still DRM-Free even if its a Steam based download.
That really isn't a logical extension. What download do Steam provide you with? None, they install on-the-fly, and you need to go to a bunch of trouble to make your own installer out of what was installed, including the time taken to do so ... then there is the issue with any future updates, etc. And many of those potential DRM-Free games from Steam, have special requirements to make them DRM-Free. So it ain't logical at all, because they are just not the same thing ... one is not an extension of the other. They are very different concepts.

Further to that, the only difference between a GOG Galaxy installer and an Offline installer, is the Galaxy one has support for Galaxy features. Other than that, they are not significantly different downloads.
Post edited February 18, 2021 by Timboli
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion@GOG: No Offline Installers anymore?(222 posts)(222 posts)
(222 posts)