Welcome! Once you're all caught up, maybe you'd like to explain why you were role fishing on Day 1. ;)

(Kidding. (But it's true.))

Just a reminder that time is running out, everyone. And no one is even at L-3 if my count is correct. We need to wrap it up lest we get a no-lynch.

Maybe a quick roll call on whose wagon you're willing to jump? Myself:
SirPrimalform and bler.

Dang, so sorry the results weren't on the good side, but glad the prognosis is very encouraging. My thoughts remain with you and your family; wishes for no more obstacles from here on.

(I somehow managed to edit this out of one of my posts from earlier today; sorry)



Not really; due to the power issues in my area, I've been playing catch up all of D1, and it sure has been a pretty busy D1 (busiest one since my first game, I think).

Remember what I told you on Saturday when you asked me what was up with the blerrfocus? This was part of my parse of the early thread posts that I intended to post on Sunday, but unfortunately the electricity company wasn't in agreement. Now, you could argue that since the moment has long passed I could have just let it be, but my brain still wanted to know if it was indeed a serious argument (like I was reading it), and based on what.



This is actually something that's been bothering me about cristigale. But there's something different about her overall approach to the game that's throwing me off somewhat, so not sure how to read her.



[emphasis added]

That's exactly my point though. Was here wagon more viable during the time Vitek had a vote on her, hence yours would be the second on it, or after he moved his vote elsewhere and yours was the first one?

trentonlf, bler144, and Vitek made it quite clear that JoeSapphire wasn't on the table quite earlier in the game before Vitek moved his vote. The labelling you mention is also from around the same time (I have to go back and check for specifics).


I've gone over the content I wanted to reread, need to sleep over my initial impressions and thoughts. Electricity company willing, I should have more than enough time tomorrow before EoD, and be around for EoD too.

Last thing for tonight - welcome Lifthrasil, looks like spot #3 was meant to be yours after all, though it doesn't look all that good.

3) Fair enough.
1) I'd say "Glad to help" but apparently you'd find that scummy. So...piss off? ;)
2) Low hanging fruit. Newbie things would be one type, sure.

The fact that I have to explain this further means you are...legitimately confused? Look, it's simple. What you described me doing was talking about your wagon as being low information if you flip town. A few other people have made that point either explicitly or implicitly, e.g. Ele's post immediately before this one. Forget how you're reading me and look at what she's saying (paraphrasing for emphasis):

"I'm OK with it but not that excited about the ZFR wagon." I agree with her that you are POE - which means you kinda have to be sorted if this is the zone your play is going to hover in, but that's not a strong argument, ergo, not making a later vote easier.

Say she votes you, you're lynched and you flip town. She will draw some attention for being on a soft wagon, esp. having been explicitly aware in advance that it was soft. Say she votes you and you flip non-town/mafia. She doesn't get much credit either, because her position was non-committal - which, when shit hits the fan, is a tactic a buddy might use if they really don't want to bus you, but realize it might come to that. Bus if the writing is absolutely on the wall, but have an excuse for staying off if it looks like it might slip to no lynch, or to vote elsewhere if an alternative wagon pops.

You're welcome to your suspicions of me, certainly, and I'm not trying to be a smurfhole here, but your read of that dynamic is just wrong. As noted, if I (or ele, likewise) is scummy for this position/tack, it's that it's non-committal and hedge-y. Neither of us made it "easier" to justify a later vote by making a substantial case, which is what you argued.

I'm not even arguing that's scummy on your part, it's just plain weird. In that vein, I don't know how I feel about the ambiguity/semantics point. Maybe I'm just also not understanding you...

You're definitely staying squarely in the POE though.

Will catch up.

Because he is my preferred vote. I am stating where I am (most) willing to vote to secure a lynch. I'll move it either tonight or tomorrow depending on how the discussion goes.

https://www.colourbox.com/preview/8443952-man-drinking-tea-and-looking-at-a-woman.jpg]Could be...
[/url]

EBWOP correction - the prior post was cristi, not ele. Scrollfart? I have no idea what happened there.

The thing I can't figure out is why, though.

...
Lava Hands Fireball....or Low Hanging Fruit. One of those. I forget.

Are you asking about my vote specifically, or my thinking generally? I confess I seem to have overlooked the rabbit post entirely since last night was a bit of a mess from start to finish for me. But it's basically like this:

SPF - started scummiest, has never really cleared but has become fairly entertaining. And if the chaos of their posts is any indication, I would actually buy it as town, even if nothing is specifically clearing, either. Would vote. I think the ZFR votes by SPF are...curious. The explanation is meh at best, but not provably false. Maybe he really is just weird. Would have liked to see that SPF wagon get some thrust earlier in the day at least to see how SPF played with some actual pressure.

ZFR - Haven't played together but I'm just not comfortable with him. Maybe it is just newbie townie nerves in a first closed game, but he's not new to games of this type and one of the more logical people I interact with here, and some of the arguments just feel completely false. Now he's Flailing town, perhaps. I did a very brief skim, though am not really caught up and recall some mention somewhere wyrm/zfr dialogued heavily pre-game. Was that from last night?

I'm really curious what Wyrm knows and thinks about what ZFR should/shouldn't understand about the game, though without knowing wyrm's alignment that's a bit moot for now anyway. If town!zfr that might explain Wyrmrage2018 regardless of alignment, but digressing...It's definitely not a great wagon. Even if scum!zfr the only person I'd probably really give town cred to is trent, and that mostly on meta, but like, multiple layers of trentmeta I would bet large sums of money on...if such were allowed in game.

My vote switch specifically was two-fold:
1) I was assuming I probably (and now pretty much definitely) wouldn't be around at deadline tomorrow, so if there was going to be conversation I was hoping it would be today. And SPF wagon, was stuck at Bill Withers.
2) Based on everything ZFR is saying, unless he's Innocent Child or Stump or something, I just don't see that slot clearing itself. He's the leading wagon and he's voting me (with him as the only vote) on a premise that is a complete misunderstanding of the basic dynamics - I'm not even talking about interpreting x as town/scum. If he's neutral or town vig he'll probably shoot me, but that's probably not going to work out well for him.

SPF has been more standout scummy in a few moments, but at least miiiight clear POE through play. Lots of madness, but...maybe some method?

Well, that was fail...for anyone still interested:

Could be


Hey, bler. Curious what you thought about this post from ZFR. (If you've already replied to it, I'll catch it).

You were at L-3 I think. I've switched my vote to Bookwyrm but yes a roll call is a good plan.

Willing to vote: ZFR, Bookwyrm, ele

Constant interruptions.

1) okay
2) ...
3) HSL has a similar style as scum or town, though my guess is town here. On meta, sure.

He has greater attention to detail than the average bear, so he will invariably ask you about some minor detail you barely remember from 18 days earlier that you said off the cuff and barely remember even saying and he will demand you explain every facet of what you were thinking. But the style by itself isn't scummy - it is a bit unfair in the sense that most people (including myself) don't measure up anywhere close to his attention to detail and so can't actually answer every last detail or just missed what he saw and can't explain why we didn't also see it. But almost everyone gets a turn under the gaze.

At least as town, he's generally pretty reasonable about it. He's generally not trying to hard-prove a case, as much as pull details on the table for other players to analyze the quality and judge and to pressure and see what happens. As case in point, his nickname forever was ...The Reluctant Voter...even when he made a good case it wasn't a given that he'd vote it.


Setups like this exist - google "Follow the cop" They rarely show up now, though, because if the game was as easy as full-claim D1 and then skip hop jump to town victory it would be dull. Now, full D1 claim is ...arguably...still to town's advantage not because it allows town PRs to dominate (they usually have some limit or counter), but because if scum have to claim first they usually just are stuck making bad claims.

But it completely changes the nature of the game, thus trent's fury that it not be done. Go back and look at yogs blowing up RW's island game D1 for an example of a genius and kinda funny but ultimately not very satisfying town victory. I think trent was already on record as hating it then, but the move ruined the pretty cool neutral role RW had made that trent drew.

Yeah. The risk of smurfholery is strong. His whole thing at this point is AtE in terms of saying he's misunderstood and asking for clarifications, which is...not much for clearing, and arguably what an inexperienced toaster should do in his shoes with no real alternative wagons to push in this particular D1.

I have definitely seen town get stuck in this rut, I'm just...surprised.

Lol - nice.
Maybe not an essay, but at least a sonnet.

Flub gets away with that writing style because...well, there's really no rational explanation for it. He just does. Krypsyn and vitek get away with it at times because they know when to bring the noise, and people expect they will.

The problem here is that as town you can't just be answering questions but observing, sharing reads, asking questions of others that press them as you are being pressed and show you have <some> angle on the game that others can evaluate what your motion and perhaps your motives might be.

I didn't watch your other game, and only skimmed your posts when I looked at it the other day, but it has been true in the past a lot of games here have been high-lurk, and so one player lurking wasn't really that notable by comparison. Maybe that's the difference, IDK.


1. Yeah, I wasn't particularly worried about that early in D1 though. For one, in these games I end up being wrong even when I think I have a heavily researched, thoroughly considered argument. For two, if I can't clear/defend myself as town based on that out of the gate D1 and most of the day still to play, I probably deserve to get lynched, and at least I feel confident I'd leave a good wagon behind.

2. I considered begging off, but probably easier to just explain - The core of it is that wyrm/you (plus yogs who is apparently not playing) are the players I always want to read as early as possible to have a sense of what you're likely to do and how aggressive/conservative I want to play if you don't look town to me. You would presumably agree the two of us have a history of being fairly transparent to the other. Your power outage kinda messed with the timing, but I think it worked out anyway.

Cristi is a player I can't read well but want to get talking as much as possible early (see: Oakwood).

Why ZFR/Vitek and not, say, Trent or any of the new players is a fair question with a meh answer, thus the literally true joke - I looked at the list when you posted it umpteen days later and asked what I was thinking and my first thought was "Why the hell did I bother asking vitek?" So that's what I posted. ;) It wasn't really a dodge, just a partial answer.

And of course you did.

I deleted the flub question accidentally, but will answer. I suspect if you went back and looked, I've often supported lynching flub D1 on the assumption he's just going to do what he does.

adalia might (and will) do something scummy, but adalia is ultimately going to be where the action is all game long, and if it comes to it he's going to make the world's worst possible claim and we'll know for sure he's a good lynch. scum!wyrm will lie and we may or may not catch him, but there's going to be something on the table to react to. 9 times out of 10 - me being a smurfhole again - flub is content to just linger in the POE because it almost never bites him because we didn't lynch him those other 8 times, so why should we lynch him the 9th time? And we didn't lynch the 9th time, so...etc.

See the response to cristi in this game. And his three votes on Vitek/Damnation/Rabbit, of which only the last appears to be serious, and all were on players with no other votes, thus meaningless regardless of what those slots flip later.

But the consensus is flub is flub, so...whatever.


They watched the landscape, sitting side by side
—An Odeon went past, a cooling tower,
And someone running up to bowl—and none
Thought of the others they would never meet
Or how their lives would all contain this hour.

I do so wonder what bler is hiding. This is probably the key to breaking the game wide open!


1. I had one tonight - I felt special til I discovered you forgot to pay for it. If I were offering a $1 million prize I suspect both yogs and HSL know enough about me they could probably figure it out.

Unfortunately for the both of them, I am completely lacking in millions of dollarses.

2. I think that was mostly me. It's weird playing at a time of day when no one else is on. Easier if I were just playing defense, I suppose. But that's not exactly my defining feature.

3. Why did it seem weak? I thought it was pretty sharp, as apparently so did flub himself. I don't get how it's weak if it's correct according to the only person who could say with certainty.

I tend to believe her that she was pursuing alignment given the structure of her argument, and she didn't hound the person who said they thought they knew what the claim was for details, she just kept insisting there was a strong possibility it was alignment-indicative, no?

She's given me a few minor eye-raises, like I'm surprised she's keeping her EOD cards quite this close to the chest, which I don't see how that helps anyone but her personally, but I disagree with your interpretation there.

Please, the patented bler144-dodge is to address the question with an answer that is true yet completely dissatisfying to the asker. The bler144-answer contains 8 pages of details and detritus you would rather not have bothered with.

Based on your embedded quotes, she just didn't answer.

@wyrm - see, trent's on it.

huh.

Huh.

The by-laws of this game specify that 'frak/frakking' is one of only two swear words allowed, but you should use it as liberally as needed. The other of course, is 'smurfin'. Frakkin' smurfy if you really need to dial it up.

Wait, you unvoted ZFR, and now you're justifying a vote on Wyrm on the basis that ZFR/Wyrm are conjointly voting you? I will be the first to admit I don't have a vote tracker going, but...why not stay on ZFR? Or go back to ZFR? What am I missing?

This feels like a partial explanation slathered in a coat of OMGUS to distract from whatever is missing. Pretend I'm an idiot - in this scenario you propose both are toastering it up and you just accused ZFR in the very prior post of being "super scummy." So...wyrm over the super scummy?

I... am not following your logic and/or tactic here.

Sigh. This is like WIFOM 101.

I'm really not trying to be a smurfhole, but think about it. If no scum would do it, it's town. If it's inherently town scum are always going to do it to look town. Etc. So no.

And if you are town, unless you have a gambit you're working, you probably stepped in it for more than one reason because you've suggested you have information that you are concealing in a game where town generally lacks information.

Now, it may be frakking weak information, or maybe it's just flavor and you are thinking you maybe have information that you really don't, but remember that, in most setups, scum know you are town, and ergo at least probably not lying.


...Can't we just lynch both SPF and ZFR? Please. I don't want to have to choose here. I'd like both, now more than ever.


Whatever alignment Rabbit was, Lift alas, is guaranteed to be mafia.

brig Lift

Welcome aboard!

unbrig Lift


I'm sorry, maybe it's me, but I don't see that as at all what you said. You said, verbatim:

"No semi-intelligent scum would vote someone without justification. Nor say "I have a reason but I won't tell" and expect to get away with it. Any scum worth his salt would have a justification, whether good or bad, for his vote."

Your second statement is "scum might do it; town might do it." Your first statement was "scum would never do that."

bllllaaaaaahhhh

Sorry, just caught up to your post. Medical appt meant a late start, on top of nighttime ritual interruptions. I don't think I tackled that one specifically, but it's more of the same muddle to me.

What specifically differentiates wyrm "genuinely trying to answer a newb question" and bler "pocketing the newbie" by answering questions? if anything it seems backwards, since the person talking about voting you is rarely pocketing you. /shrug Either way, ZFR doesn't enlighten.

The "reason I can't share" is meh. "meta and gut" is weak, but whatever. It's not the most glaring issue with him. He dug the bigger hole on that one in responding in defense of his original answer.

Could this be coming from town? Sure. It's possible. Is any of it "townie" or even "solvey"? No.

I have no idea what the current vote count is, no one's online anyway to discuss it with, and I probably will be at work until after day's end so...

I was waffling when I started reading, but I'm staying on ZFR, period. This isn't a matter of new player misunderstanding game mechanics. Read these two sentences back to back:

"No semi-intelligent scum would vote someone without justification. Nor say "I have a reason but I won't tell" and expect to get away with it. Any scum worth his salt would have a justification, whether good or bad, for his vote."

and then his follow-up

"By my logic they needn't be scum. "Needn't be scum" is not equivalent to "must be town". Not-scummy is not equal to towny. It could be NAI."

They mean exactly the opposite, and when pressed on these discrepancies he says people misunderstand him or that maybe he was ambiguous but he's literally saying the opposite of what he said unless I am literally losing my mind. His early wagon was weak, but this is just anti-town. I have no qualms about defending this vote now.

Looking around the table everything looks fractured - some good exchanges and information, but...

Good luck. And please don't fire drill this.

...and this is why I stopped playing. I stayed on too late, and am now angry at myself for being angry at a person I like outside the game over a stupid game and probably won't sleep.

So your preferred vote is still based solely on profile picture?
That's your best read for scum and lynch that would be most beneficial for town?

Thinking of it, what are your reads?


Hello, Lifthrasil. Would you still like to know who town cop is?