So we should give everyone a pass who does something that is blatantly LAMIST? I mean if you do it for one then you would have to do it for almost everyone (if this was his first game of Mafia and he had never watched any happen before I could see giving a pass and explaining to him what he did, but that is not the case). Plus, I have decided to stop second guessing myself when I get a gut feeling on someone as I get it wrong more times than right when I second guess myself. Unless something more damning happens I'll probably leave my vote parked where it is.

Interesting.

1) As your post notes, not EVERY case is the same. I think I would take a much broader view than even your hinted *newbie exception.* I do think it's fair to press someone on it and see how they respond.

But I don't think I'd be upset if I pushed on something like that and literally no one else cared. Sometimes LAMIST moves are accidental/derpy, sometimes it's working an angle. It's not actual wolfing, is it?

2) Okay, but say ZFR sits at two votes til day's end. You stay parked where you are in that scenario even if nothing more damning has come along?

What do you think of the fact that ZFR/JoeS are voting each other, and you and JoeS are voting together but seeming in disagreement over specifics?

I am not going to vote someone that I don't think is scummy just to vote someone, so if by the end of the day the person with the majority of votes is someone I don't see as possible scum I will not vote them. If there is someone else at the end of the day that has the majority of the votes that I could see as possible scum then I will vote them, but either way I will be firm in my decision and not second guess myself.

I don't think anything of the fact that ZFR and JoeS are voting each other, what does that matter? The fact that me and JoeS are arguing over specifics doesn't bother me in the slightest, should it? I mean I am right and he is wrong IMO and he is right and I am wrong in his opinion, and it doesn't seem that will change.

Fair enough. Though I confess I'm surprised that you particularly would let it fall to no lynch. Was Oakwood really a philosophical break point, then? (glossing over all the details of that end of day ****show) Nevermind - don't answer that.

So...

What do you think about SPF so far? Had you seen him play before or played with him?
What do you think of Vitek's read on Cristi?

I voted for you because I wanted to see the reaction. It was an interesting reaction, thank you.

I need to go to sleep now, as I'm posting I'm not actually caught up on the thread.

Hey, you can always count on me for an interesting reaction. It may or may not end up being right, but interesting I can usually deliver. Just don't ask me about the orc bodyguard to the demon SK.

For the record, I thought the play town!you might be making was trying to start a speculative wagon to see if ele hopped off. Still don't love the vote, but whatevs.

sleep well!

When you're back in tomorrowland...
You're town-ish-reading cristi - got any more clarity on the why? What do you think of Vitek scum-reading her?
You've seen a bit more of trent with today's posts - any clarity there?
ZFR?

I re-read a few players. Damnation actually has 5 decent posts.
Rabbit has 2 posts, one of which is noting s/he has to work (gardens are in full season, and a rabbit does have to eat!). But s/he has a very cute avatar so...
_____________
I'm still not seeing what trent is seeing on re-read with the LAMIST bit, but I gave in and looked back at an old ZFR game since he invited us to do so.

I ISOed your posts in this game, then looked through the QT you linked, and it made me curious so I looked at the actual game a bit. Don't tell HSL I did that though, ok?

You didn't ask this question in your previous game that I can see. Not sure how to ask the question without risking role fishing, so I won't ask you to respond, but will comment it seems an odd question to ask this in one's second game (I'm not counting Secret Hitler or Resistance - despite overlaps they're distinct in important ways imo).

The first game seems odd in certain respects, so I'd cut you some slack in a number of areas moving to what at least appears to be a more standard closed setup, but your game had roles - [url=https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Category:Roles_Main_Page]mason is exactly a role[/url] in much the same way that vanilla is a role.

Need to think about how/whether to proceed with this prior game/this game thing. But I can mostly see what you were trying to do in that game (admittedly, I know your alignment while reading)...


So...lay out how you think this if-then method works iyo. And how do you know which facts are facts, and which are merely gambits/feints/mistakes that others have made because they don't know what your experiment is? How do you know your hypothesis aren't built on pre-conceptions or understanding of setup that turns out not to be true? Again, don't ask about the orc bodyguard story which involved an experiment AND tunneling! Yay!

At some point, even if trying to be methodical, isn't this game more like poker where you have to choose to play the odds, and all your gambits and experiments are simply an attempt to shift the needle on said odds?


So...a flurry of about 100 posts with some interesting shifts. Once you get caught up, I'd be curious to hear what you're thinking now.

Still here! Just catching up D;

A whole hour spent reading posts and catching up (it's my own fault)

Thoughts on the Brig mechanic:
Agree

I was thinking of the brig mechanic as very much like this as well, but I also think it would be a huge pity to get to the end of the game and not have used it (even just for Poppyappletree's sake!).

Some very good points here!
1) unlikely to get a town sweep on D1, but I am pro soft-lynch.
2) Good retort from (Joe?) about Mafia getting a free roleblock as well
3) Yes, stopping scum nightchat is a good thing, but even if it means we could accidentaly block a town power-role?
4) excpet if the brigged player is a power, but agree with 8) that they would be lynch-vulnerable at that point anyway


Pro-town reads: Bookwyrm
Mafia read: ZRF - doesn't seem fair or relevent to critisise Joe's spelling & punctuation seems like a fairly ineffective Mafia tac-tic?
& How can sharing suspicions NOT be helpful to town? (I don't care if it was in another game). At the 13 votes stage, we have to point the gun somewhere.

Response to Joe: Scum team: Elebutterfly, ZFR, SPF

Nope, I have not played any online Mafia since then, strictly parlour-style.

It wouldn't..? It would be ZFR so far...
*puts money where mouth is*
vote ZFR

I am in the other country, hooray! Filler post to say have read and will post more properly shortly.

But instantly off the top of my head about the brig:
- if a brig creates a new lynch scenario (9 to lynch becomes 8 to lynch for example), we're going to have to be really, really careful about this... it would be horribly easy to lynch someone via brigging, which has the potential to really muddy the waters in the analysis,
- agree with Joe? and rabbit? that town does not control the brig, that's like saying town control the lynch. must look up who said that.
- setup speculation at this point also feels slightly scummy, since a town roleblocker with the brig mechanic might be a thing, it depends what else is in play. No point speculating right now.

Ultimately, reading all of that quickly, my feeling was we were going around in circles. We need a lynch with a paper trail. So far there's a heck of a lot of paper but everyone is being very guarded about whose arguments they agree with presumably for fear of starting a wagon, I feel not many are putting their vote where their words indicate (though I'll check that when I re-read, it's just an impression at the moment).

Also, for the record, I dislike referencing behaviour in completed games as "proof" someone is town in this one.. what's to prevent a scum player from deliberately copying their own behaviour in a game where they flipped town? It's "hard proof" that this is town behaviour, right? When, of course, anyone can read literally anyone as scummy on D1 because there's been no wagon to analyse and no lynch.... I find it suspect to try to prove one's self like that this early. Now if I could just remember who it was..!

Someone asked some of us how long it's been since I played? (... (honestly curious) Why do you want to know that?) I modded game 14 here on GOG which finished in 2013, and played in game 15 which finished May 2013. Other than that a little bit of werewolf IRL and I ran some real-world mafia for my English language debate classes. I've not played online anywhere else.

Right. Back to read the SEVENTEEN PAGES you guys generated while I was in the Chunnel. Reads List to follow.

My initial reaction was it wasn't worth the effort….but I did it and it was a pain in a@@. Now I'm glad I did. The games I've include are games I've played with flub or spectated with a decent amount of attention. It wasn't always possible to make out the avatar or the details. In some cases, his avatar changed early in the game, I went with the one that appeared to be used the majority of the game.

Game #26 – S.T.A.L.K.E.R.
Flub – Monolith (Mafia) Goon
Avatar – Wedding photo
When asked about the avatar, Flub commented that his wedding day was the same day as Chernobyl, so there's some insider correlation to the game.

Game #27 – Gameshow Showdown
Flub – Mafia Goon
Avatar – Shady looking silhouette of man in front of a computer screen
Looks like a hacker or someone up to no good.

Game #28 – Grand Oak Gallows
Flub – Arsonist
Avatar – Confederate Flag
Burning this flag is symbolic is some parts of America

Game #29 – Smelly Dungeon
Flub – Town Role Blocker
Avatar – Cartoon of a boy? In uniform? holding something? (this one is hard to make out)

Game #30 – Murder They Wrote
Flub – Town Jail Keeper
Avatar – Barney Fife (The Andy Griffeth Show)
Obvious link for anyone familiar with the show (although might also suggest a cop)

Game #32 – Booze, Blood, and Bullet
Flub – Mafia Godfather
Avatar – Willy Wonka
Flubb apparently didn't choose a game related avatar, I recognize this as one of his everyday avatars

Game #35 – The Ordinariest Ordinary Game
Flub – Mafia Goon
Avatar – Vanilla Bean
This is the one time I see flub use an avatar that is the opposite of his alignment

Game #36 – A Family Fortune
Flub – Town (Constance Williams)
Avatar – Humorous family photo
This one played directly to the theme

Game #37 – Murder at the Women's Institute
Flub – Town Cop
Avatar – Bikini clad woman
This one also played directly (in a flubb way) to the theme

Game #38 – Murder on the Wing
Flub – Town Miller
Avatar – Woman hugging (someone/something?) while giving the finger
I took it as a nod to his role.

Game #40 – Wildberry Hollow
Flub – Evil (Mafia) goon
Avatar – Endora from Bewitched
Directly played to his role (while Endora is technically not evil, she is definitely the antagonist and looks the part)

Game #41 – Shodan Awakens (Cult game)
Flub – Cult Leader
Avatar – Jim Jones (real life cult leader)

Game #47 – It Tastes Like Chicken
Flub – Mafia
Avatar – Bottle of liquor, the label is too fuzzy to read
The label may have hinted to flub's alignment but it is not possible to tell.

Game #49 – Retirement Isn't so Peaceful
Flub – Mafia
Avatar – A sign that says "Welcome…." (I can't read the rest)

Game #51 – The Greater Good
Flub – Cult (recruited N1?)
Avatar – Joyce Cooper packing heat (Joyce was his character in the game)

Game #52 – SHODAN'S Children
Flub – Town (vanilla?)
Avatar – the Willy Wonka one
Apparently didn't use a game related avatar


Summary:
-Flub appears to use a game related avatar in 14 of 16 games.

-One game used an avatar that was opposite of his alignment: #35 (Vanilla bean avatar as scum)

-Flubb used avatars that directly pointed to his alignment or role 6 times.
1. Twice as town: #30 and #38
2. Three times as scum (mafia/cult/evil): #27, #40, #41
3. Once as third party: #28

-Flubbed used 4 game related avatars that were not alignment indicative: #26, #36, #37, #51

-Three avatars were too blurry to classify: #29, #47, #49 Anyone is welcome to take a shot at them.

-There are no apparent instances where flubb is town and uses a scum related avatar, which some are arguing in this game. I think it's more likely he is scum.


Hyper – to directly answer your questions, games #40 and #41 must have been the games that struck a nerve. I remember noticing the Jim Jones avatar early in the cult game. I brushed it off, not going to do it again. And to your second question, the Vanilla Bean was the only example of flub using the opposite avatar. It appears to be the exception and not the norm.

Obviously, there are other games I did not examine. Anyone is welcome to pull in examples that support or refute what is here.

Attached are the avatars in the order they are mentioned.

Hmmm...I thought I attached both files. Here is the first one:

I can confirm that posting from a smartphone is a pain in the proverbial.

I agree with ele that reading into people's behaviour from their posts in previous games doesn't really feel like legit gameplay. But I contrast this with RL games where you know people well enough to use this info to judge scumness of behaviour.

I am a bit uncomfortable with it as a tac-tic, but I think that we need to use all info available, and this is available info. so therefore Ele's reluctance to use it seems a bit scummy to me..

Grr....One more try. If this one doesn't take I'm calling it quits for the night.