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JoeSapphire: RW confirms I didn't act last Night - with one mafia goon dead does that make sense if I am mafia?
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my name is racynge catte: I guess the odds are against it, unless RW is your buddy?
ah yeah I hadn't considered that you're right then it makes sens- HAY WAYTAMINNIT

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detective_razza: can i ask y’all? some of you mentioned the possibility of it not being a scum NK? (RW and dedo, posts #744 and #745)
who else/ what role could have killed dess in the night period?
There's a town role that can kill players called vigilante.
There's also a few roles that can change a kill's target : bus driver, redirector

But I think if either of those had happened probably whoever did it would have told us now, and I can believe now it was a mafia kill.
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JoeSapphire: they just don't claim to have done a power on someone they didn't do a power on. that way whatever the roleblocker did it can't be contradicted. If you hadn't thought of doing that yet mafia then there you are, you're welcome. [...]
Hey JoeSapphire, thanks for the lesson! My point was that if they know exactly what the Rolestopper did, they might claim to have done a power on someone they didn't because they know that said PR can't contradict them, which in turn muddles the waters and could even lead to incriminating a townie for the mislynch


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JoeSapphire: [...] pretty sure the story we were told is that babark got told his action Night 1 was successful, and yet frostburn is dead. So not phishing, just working with the info we have. [...]
I was referring to what Lifthrasil told babark last Night, not what babark told us yesterDay.


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JoeSapphire: [...] And don't call me Keane. [...]
What about Jack, can I call you Jack?


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JoeSapphire: [...] I'll understand better when babark tells me why was he asking.

Is it babark that's just gone away for three days? bah.

They just don't look to me like the questions of "I should have saved that guy why is he dead?" it looks more like questioning why the mafia chose to target frostburn. [...]
That's fair, and yes, it's babark who won't be back until Sunday evening.

As for the last part - I have thoughts, but I'll wait for babark to reply first.


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JoeSapphire: [...] Because he town read me when it would have been easy for him not to, and because when he turned up at the end of day to vote bucktooth he didn't seem interested in trying to have any control of the situation.[...]
[emphasis added]

Could you point to where this town-read took place? Also go into what you mean with the part I highlighted?


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JoeSapphire: [...] We've worked together for a year. I can't confirm whether she's faking naivety or not because I don't know if she's mafia or not. [...]
We seem to have a misunderstanding here, and it's on me. Let me try this again:
-- What I meant in my post #765 about her naivete is that it strikes me as a characteristic of her as a person in RL that leaks into her game, and read your comment in post #777 as you saying "yeah, I think it is... actually, I'm not sure".
-- I read her comment in post #779 as her confirming my assessment - correct me if I read this incorrectly, @detective_razza.
-- This made me go back to your comment, and ask you to clarify if I read her comment and yours correctly, but your reply here tells me that I misunderstood you, and that we weren't talking about the same thing.

So, now that I've hopefully explained myself better, would you say that, based on your experience with her through work, the characterisation she gave herself as a person is fair?
Note: if the answer is yes, whether she's using that as mafia isn't part of the question.


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JoeSapphire: [...] why does it matter how serious I'm being? I'm wading through this list of your questions and you can't give me three names? [...]
I can, just wanted to know what went through your head when you made the post; thanks for indulging me.

1. dedoporno
2. babark
2. RWarehall


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JoeSapphire: [...] Another challenge: Who will to speak passionately in defense of zfr? [...]
Funny, just today I was thinking how ZFR has slid into the background after being in the centre of D1; no more inquiries, more reactionary interactions and fewer in number, as we all seem to have left him alone to happily sit on the town-read he got D1. ZFR's not for toDay, but I've made a note to look into him. Same for Ambiti0nZ.


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JoeSapphire: [...] IF BABARK's telling the truth we don't want him to act toNight, because he can't prevent the kill and there's a greater risk he'll interfere with town's abilities. [...]
[emphasis added]

We don't know that for certain, do we? There's always the case the mafia have a Strongman.


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JoeSapphire: [...] - any thoughts on how we should play this?

I just thought we could try co-ordinating RW and Babark, to see if RWarehall gets blocked, but I think that's just a recipe for a dead RWarehall.[...]
I'm against telling PRs what to do, because that's giving mafia a blueprint to refine their own actions.


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JoeSapphire: [...] Me and dedo were once a scumteam together that got brutally slaughtered by town no matter HOW many memes I offered to spare his life.

I'll let dedo finish this story and explain why it's relevant - @dedo?
Colour me intrigued. Which game was that?
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JoeSapphire: Now that I remember this happening I would like to know the answer still, so Babark: why'd you ask

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babark: As for my question, what I mean is that both mafia, as well as town (including PR town) expected Frost to be targetted. So I was actually expecting no NK, or someone else to end up being NK. The fact that it actually did end up being Frost troubles me a bit.
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JoeSapphire: ^ those questions?
I'm not sure what you mean? To find out the answers. I'm not as experienced with the game as everyone else, so considering my role and powers, I was trying to understand how things are supposed to work and what happens. I wasn't asking why mafia targetted frostburn, that much was obvious.

Like how right now everyone is talking about how it might be that Dessimu might not be a mafia kill, but don't want to go into further details, as it might be for the benefit of town? I thought Lift said in the first post that there are no cults in this game?

Wait...typing as reading, and catte has explained now about some of the town roles, but that seems very implausible. It would mean that town killed another town randomly, and mafia didn't kill anyone.

Oh, and Joe gave some more role explanations now which open even more possibilities. What a potentially messy game

Going by what we can reasonably assume, Joe was not the one who did anything, I'm guessing RW is not the one who did anything either. As for...whoever did the challenge...I don't know who I'd one-shot kill, might have said Joe before, but things seem to have changed. But HSL and RW are safe town in my eyes, lets tentatively say Joe is as well (although I guess as someone else mentioned, he could've just done nothing and let other mafia handle it for the night).
That leaves ZFR, Catte, Dedoporno, Razza and AmbitionZ. Someone was asking for a read on ZFR, but I haven't really got one one way or another. Going back to the votes the last two nights, and filtering it down, it still comes back to Catte, Dedoporno and Razza (no Joe for now). So... for the time being

vote catte
bump if you'd like to try and correct the mess above.
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dedoporno: [...] I am convinced only in the things I've been told by the mod. For the rest I can only put varying levels of trust based on different factors. [...]
Oh ok, I only used the term "convinced" because of your posts #656 and #667, but looks like I read them as more affirmative than what you meant.



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my name is racynge catte: [...] I'm not sure I understand the last question, there seems to be an implication that there's a "known way" that you, I and probably a number of others would play the role, but I have no idea how you would play it or if that is the same as the way I would play it. I think if I was a town rolestopper I would target people I would expect to be drawing attention from the mafia, e.g. people who have hinted at PRs but not claimed. [...]
You've taken my question like three steps further down than what I was referring to with it, but that's probably my fault. The implied "known way" wasn't about a common pattern of how we'd play it, but simply this - you, me, and others we both know, would use it each and every Night, full stop. Do you disagree with this? babark doesn't strike me as someone that'd do the same; what's your impression?


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my name is racynge catte: Still getting bad feelings off Joe toDay. [...]
Is that why you refused to do his 3 names Challenge?



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ZFR: Actually, HSL can be 1. too.

I'm not a pussy.
Perhaps not, but you're a cheater.



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RWarehall: [...] I sent Sophia to check on Joe and interesting result, there was no motion whatsoever. Thus, no one investigated him and he did not go anywhere else. Doesn't rule out being scum as he could be the one staying home, but also would mean the scum are out of juice or only have a Strongman left. [...]
[emphasis added]

I don't follow what you mean with the part I highlighted, could you elaborate?



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detective_razza: [...] @HSL, could you tell me your insights? i’m trying to decipher my vote based on who (at the end of D2) you were really cracking down on. it was RW but then you said their behaviour didn’t align with past mafia!RW so i just want to get some insight into, if you had to choose- who do you think would try to kill you and quieten town alongside that action at the end of D2? or i guess the whole game?
I wasn't cracking down on anyone after RWarehall. babark was PoE, so an acceptable lynch at the time. He's not in my PoE toDay.

One thing you should know about me is that I play quite close to the vest, asking questions and interacting to get a feel/read on others, then re-evaluating things in private to check where I am; rinse and repeat.

As to who would want me silenced and try to kill me N2, depends on who's on the mafia team. People that we know each other quite well from past games would be good candidates, as they know that I'm persistent and will do my best to nail them. In this context, that would be ZFR, dedoporno, RWarehall, maybe JoeSapphire, Catte and Ambiti0nZ.

Surprisingly for me this game, I have varying degrees of town leans/reads on most and no concrete scum read** (I thought I had one in RWarehall, but that's mostly gone poof), and that's keeping me on my toes. So I keep re-evaluating as the game progresses to avoid/prevent a nasty surprise somewhere down the road, if I can help it. JoeSapphire and dedoporno are in my PoE because I don't believe that none of the mafia bussed bucktoothgamer, I'm going to revisit ZFR and Ambiti0nZ for reasons I gave earlier, and Catte because typing this out made me think of something worrisome.

Not sure if any of this helps in your decision making.

** in past games it was the other way around
Not sure how to unmess it. I don't think I missed any close-quotes, I blame the forum software. But to try again :D...

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JoeSapphire: Now that I remember this happening I would like to know the answer still, so Babark: why'd you ask
...

^ those questions?
I'm not sure what you mean? To find out the answers. I'm not as experienced with the game as everyone else, so considering my role and powers, I was trying to understand how things are supposed to work and what happens. I wasn't asking why mafia targetted frostburn, that much was obvious.

Thanks to catte and Joe for the explanations for my stream-of-thought questions

I hope it is no issue for me to repeat what people have said here already for today, for my own summary:

- ZFR voted Razza
- Razza and AmbitionZ (say they) were not around near the end of NK, so they did not have any actions relating to that around that time (changing a vote, etc.)
- Dedo has something up his sleeve that will happen later
- RW (says he) used his role on Joe and that Joe did nothing
- RW voted for Razza as well
- Razza says he has some info based on his role as well, more info coming later
- Joe voted for dedo
- Catte voted Joe



Going by what we can reasonably assume, Joe was not the one who did anything, I'm guessing RW is not the one who did anything either. As for...whoever challenged the challenge...I don't know who I'd one-shot kill, might have said Joe before, but things seem to have changed. But HSL and RW are safe town in my eyes, lets tentatively say Joe is as well (although I guess as someone else mentioned, he could've just done nothing and let other mafia handle it for the night).
That leaves ZFR, Catte, Dedoporno, Razza and AmbitionZ. Someone was asking for a read on ZFR, but I haven't really got one one way or another. Going back to the votes the last two nights, and filtering it down, it still comes back to Catte, Dedoporno and Razza (no Joe for now). So... for the time being I continue with my vote as above.

Going to sleep now, but I usually am up during the dead time in about 8 hours from now, and will see and reply further to anything (as well as look back to all the cryptic hints people were talking about relating to the end of D2).
*sigh* no one is going to ask why I, if the game depended on it, would Vig HSL, whom I'm Town-reading, and not for example Razza whom I'm voting?

I hate it when I have the answer but no one asks the question...

PS I'm visiting family during the past week and a half. And also the argument with Ambitionz has taken its toll on me. Hence I'm quieter. Someone else dig that hole from the meme.
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HypersomniacLive: As to who would want me silenced and try to kill me N2, depends on who's on the mafia team. People that we know each other quite well from past games would be good candidates, as they know that I'm persistent and will do my best to nail them. In this context, that would be ZFR, dedoporno, RWarehall, maybe JoeSapphire, Catte and Ambiti0nZ.

Surprisingly for me this game, I have varying degrees of town leans/reads on most and no concrete scum read** (I thought I had one in RWarehall, but that's mostly gone poof), and that's keeping me on my toes. So I keep re-evaluating as the game progresses to avoid/prevent a nasty surprise somewhere down the road, if I can help it. JoeSapphire and dedoporno are in my PoE because I don't believe that none of the mafia bussed bucktoothgamer, I'm going to revisit ZFR and Ambiti0nZ for reasons I gave earlier, and Catte because typing this out made me think of something worrisome.

Not sure if any of this helps in your decision making.
ah- thank you, it at least gives me a start of who to look into. is the list (emphasis added) in order or just a general list? i’m going to guess not from the “maybe” but i just wanted to clarify?
Celebrations are more or less over for the day. I'm catching up now.
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JoeSapphire: I'll be reminding you of this later. :P
I hope that won't be necessary.


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ZFR: 1. RW
You understood this is someone who gets killed off, right?

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ZFR: Actually, HSL can be 1. too.

I'm not a pussy.
You did. Is this serious or are you just mocking Joe?


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RWarehall: Outside of their third being something far more powerful like an actual Role Cop, this doesn't make sense to me.
What baffles me is game balance based on claimed roles and actions.

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RWarehall: 1) Babark - I don't think it can be fake
OK, I'm pretty sure you didn't understand how this works :D


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JoeSapphire: I'll let dedo finish this story and explain why it's relevant - @dedo?
I think I understand what you're getting at. Assuming I do I'll say this - from a technical perspective this is better than trying to force it in the other way as on top of the obvious benefit there is possibly another one you're not aware of. This is just looking at things from mechanical standpoint. The problem is that, firstly, you'll be making a mistake, and secondly, there is a trade-off which I'm not sure it's worth it as it doesn't really make things that much easier for me personally. Maybe it'll be more worth it to others in which case fine. If I have understood you correctly I'd say go with whatever you think best. I'm pretty sure it's not the worst option there is even if there are better ones. If this isn't what you meant then huh?


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detective_razza: can i ask y’all? some of you mentioned the possibility of it not being a scum NK? (RW and dedo, posts #744 and #745)
If I have followed your last few posts correctly I'd say there is a decent chance I was mistaken and this was in fact a scum kill.


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HypersomniacLive: Oh ok, I only used the term "convinced" because of your posts #656 and #667, but looks like I read them as more affirmative than what you meant.
I have a reason to believe RW's claim which is still valid. Yesterday that was good enough to take his claim at face value. Today he's still alive and Dessimu isn't which was somewhat worrysome. That being said given some potential recent findings are making reconsider things once again.


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ZFR: I hate it when I have the answer but no one asks the question...
ikr?
I'll wait for JoeSapphire's reply/reaction to babark's posts before sharing thoughts (I mentioned earlier).


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ZFR: *sigh* no one is going to ask why I, if the game depended on it, would Vig HSL, whom I'm Town-reading, and not for example Razza whom I'm voting?

I hate it when I have the answer but no one asks the question... [...]
*sees that dedporno didn't ask this time*

Fine - why would you vig me on your path to losing the game?

And now that this came up again - @JoeSapphire, what are you making of the results you got?


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ZFR: [...] Someone else dig that hole from the meme.
@Cadaaaaveer747, threads calling you!



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detective_razza: ah- thank you, it at least gives me a start of who to look into. is the list (emphasis added) in order or just a general list? i’m going to guess not from the “maybe” but i just wanted to clarify?
Not sure what "order" you're asking for, but here's a bit of clarification.
The first three are the ones I've played the most with (ZFR the least), so we know each other's game better.
From the second three, I've played less games with JoeSapphire and Catte than with the above, and Ambiti0nZ was a very long time ago, hence the maybe.



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dedoporno: [...] What baffles me is game balance based on claimed roles and actions. [...]
Could you go into this a bit?


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dedoporno: [...] I think I understand what you're getting at. Assuming I do I'll say this - from a technical perspective this is better than trying to force it in the other way as on top of the obvious benefit there is possibly another one you're not aware of. This is just looking at things from mechanical standpoint. The problem is that, firstly, you'll be making a mistake, and secondly, there is a trade-off which I'm not sure it's worth it as it doesn't really make things that much easier for me personally. Maybe it'll be more worth it to others in which case fine. If I have understood you correctly I'd say go with whatever you think best. I'm pretty sure it's not the worst option there is even if there are better ones. If this isn't what you meant then huh? [...]
I said I'm intrigued when JoeSapphire started this, now I'm utterly confused... Is either of you going to share with the rest of the class what this is all about?


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dedoporno: [...] I have a reason to believe RW's claim which is still valid. [...]
This reads like you don't want to share said reason? May I ask, why that may be?


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dedoporno: [...] That being said given some potential recent findings are making reconsider things once again. [...]
Would you like to give this another try and rephrase? Because I can't understand what you're saying here.


And that's it for me, see you all tomorrow.
I thought you'd never ask...

In the scenario Joe described, it all depends on my Vig. Now, the probability of RW being scum is smallish, and in case of HSL is outright tiny. But imagine if he actually is scum. Everyone is reading them as Town, we're on the verge of losing and then I BAM! Vig him to snatch a win. Why, I'd be the hero talked about for years. And if I'm wrong then ooops gg.

By contrast there is little glory in Vigging scum!razza.

I'm not a pussy. I go for the hard win.
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HypersomniacLive: Could you go into this a bit?
Not without going deeper into claims, most importantly babark's.

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HypersomniacLive: I said I'm intrigued when JoeSapphire started this, now I'm utterly confused... Is either of you going to share with the rest of the class what this is all about?
If Joe confirms I understand him correctly I'll explain.

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HypersomniacLive: This reads like you don't want to share said reason?
Correct.

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HypersomniacLive: May I ask, why that may be?
If I responded to that it would defeat the purpose of not going into details about RW.

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HypersomniacLive: Would you like to give this another try and rephrase? Because I can't understand what you're saying here.
It's supposed to read "That being said some potential recent findings are making me reconsider things once again". RW and babark outlasting Dessimu didn't make a whole lot of sense to me which threw a bit of a shadow on their claims. Then I realized Dessimu being NKed by scum actually may not be that non-sensical after all in which case my concerns may not be holding as much water as I thought. More so for RW than babark, though.
Official vote count

Joe 1 - catte 808
Dedo 1 - Joe 806
Razza 2 - zfr 738, rware 776

Not voting: babark, dedo, ambition, razza, hsl
Razza leads at L-3
only zfr was brave enough to accept the challenge eh?

do I think only town zfr plays the first challenge this way? probably scum!zfr could, but it gives me good vibes.

---

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babark: I'm not sure what you mean? To find out the answers. I'm not as experienced with the game as everyone else, so considering my role and powers, I was trying to understand how things are supposed to work and what happens. I wasn't asking why mafia targetted frostburn, that much was obvious.
so the questions were:

avatarbabark: Also, since we seem to be talking about roles right now, I'm curious why Frost was NK, when he was such an obvious NK. Or was that only my perspective? Did other people have other suspicions?

^ this one I really struggle to see coming from the I-thought-I'd-saved-him perspective. When you say "when he was such an obvious Night Kill" I thought you were saying you'd expect mafia to try elsewhere, as he'd likely be protected, is that not what you meant.

avatarbabark: As for my question, what I mean is that both mafia, as well as town (including PR town) expected Frost to be targetted. So I was actually expecting no NK, or someone else to end up being NK. The fact that it actually did end up being Frost troubles me a bit.

^ this one i can understand if it is a deliberate hint at your rolestopper ability. I don't see how it is trying to understand how things are supposed to work.

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dedoporno: I think I understand what you're getting at. Assuming I do I'll say this - from a technical perspective this is better than trying to force it in the other way as on top of the obvious benefit there is possibly another one you're not aware of. This is just looking at things from mechanical standpoint. The problem is that, firstly, you'll be making a mistake, and secondly, there is a trade-off which I'm not sure it's worth it as it doesn't really make things that much easier for me personally. Maybe it'll be more worth it to others in which case fine. If I have understood you correctly I'd say go with whatever you think best. I'm pretty sure it's not the worst option there is even if there are better ones. If this isn't what you meant then huh?
hum. I didn't mean that at all, XD

What I was getting as was we, as mafia, were totally exposed by town power roles confirming themselves and one another. From that I learned a lesson - as scum, get to end game with as many town vanillas as possible.
You need places to hide, and even low-power roles can prove deadly just by confirming their power.

I was hoping the trauma would have etched this lesson into dedo's memory too, and allow me to trust that dedo would never have accepted a dessimu kill.

This response is interesting for totally different reasons. Gah. I think I love it? I wish I could say with certainty that I knew what he was getting at.