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ZFR: (I'm still willing to vote AmbitionZ, if only to remove a distraction).
That sounds like a you problem, not a me problem.

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my name is catte: It's safe to say there are a lot of "X vs Cadaver" incidents. ;)
New phone, who dis?

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my name is catte: I generally find myself agreeing with ZFR in the conflict between them
We all make terrible decisions at some point in life, but I still support you!

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JoeSapphire: I'd vote catte except HypersomniacLive is trying to pressure me off his wagon simply because I have no particular reason to be on it and That Is Not Good Enough reason for me to shift. Not moving.
You lost me here. Sir, what? Preposterous. But do explain.

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RWarehall: 1) AmbitiOn
Who dis? Never met 'em.

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RWarehall: To me, it's a better reason to finish them off.
Weak. In a non-role madness game you run a higher risk of engaging in a whole lot of mislynches out of this dogma. Of course, we first have to figure out the game setup as a collective.

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bucktoothgamer: Why would'nt Town!AZ at least want to let PR Frostburn live into N1 and give them a chance to use their role. If theyre scum?
I made no such case. This was entirely painted onto me bringing up viable possibilities in the real of reasonable probability of happening in our setups.

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RWarehall: Please do not use any roles on Ambiti0n, there are a lot of other targets. Not that most powers would be worthwhile to use on a self-proclaimed vanilla town, but even so, please don't for this night only. I have my reasons. Yes cryptic. Maybe you will find this suspicious, I don't know. Invoking the spirit of Yogsloth, sometimes its worth flipping some tables.
I have so many questions...
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RWarehall: the job of Vanilla Town is often to die protecting more valuable PRs.
Acceptable explanation.

Unvote ZFR
Vote bucktoothgamer

I guess you escape my vote for now, RWarhol

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RWarehall: And for the record, calling for a rushed lynch with no discussion, Joe, is the scummiest thing I've seen in all of Day 1...
Eh, I've seen more audacious propositions. I don't know what to make of it yet.

FWIW, I think RWare's argument about a VT lynch today given time constraints is deece. So if it's me, c'est la vie. But do scrutinize everyone on the wagon, including him. After all, a good argument is a better cover for scummy intentions than a bad one. But he is proposing something that would hinder intel gathering for scum. Drawbacks and benefits, I suppose. Still, if you really think I'm town and don't wanna run the risk of mislynching (which means you have a 30% chance of hitting scum based on your reading of me, knowing yourself to be town, and accepting that there are probably 3 malefactors at play against town), I won't really mind it cause I'm pretty ambivalent to buck or RWare as the lynch. RWare has just made too many good points in the last couple of posts.

Anyway: Frost is sus. buck is sus. RWare is sus. baba is kinda sus. Dunno what to make of JoeTopaz. ZFR is questionable, but slight towny read, barely. For dedo and Cthulhu I got no reading. Razzazel is likewise an enigma still. And I just realized that I don't quite know what to make of Catte yet. Maybe scummy? Hmmmm. I'll have to dwell on it.

For D1 I am unwilling to vote for HSL or any of the true new players cause of the D1 protection (including Frost).
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HypersomniacLive: That's an interesting way of phrasing it. Could you expand a bit?
I'm not sure what you find unclear or interesting about it. You asked people to look at two specific posts and how they look to us. I responded that I don't find anything particularly concerning in them (my assumption was that you saw something that you don't like and you wanted to see if others would also read them in the same way). How would you have liked it worded?


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LordCephy: I think he means newbie as in has not played here before, which I can see the advantage in doing. If you lynch someone new to your game on day one, they remain a complete unknown in the next game. The unofficial rule gives more opportunity to get to know people before you start killing them off.
That's the thing. He has played here before. And the newbie protection is not in place so we can have better meta reads on them for next game. It's so they can experience at least one full Day and more importantly their first Night as that's when they can make use of whatever special power they may have.

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LordCephy: My reply to your post and the next post are pretty much the same, so I'll cover them together.
Thanks. I understand better now. I don't really subscribe to the logic of them being more prepared than they let know means they are likely scum but I get your point.


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my name is catte: It's safe to say there are a lot of "X vs Cadaver" incidents. ;)
Sure but I was mostly thinking of the TvT stuff :P


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detective_razza: however i will removed my vote on HSL to prove that i’m not forcing arguments out of nowhere.
pfft-

unvote HSL
How does that prove it?


I have to stop at #355 as I have work but I'll come back in a bit later (before the Day ends).
Attachments:
I am not sure what "shoot RWarehall" means. Is it some sort of flavour thing (did Zak ever have a gun?) or some sort of role thing?

Also, dedo seems awfully protective of HSL, and has stated twice that his behaviour is normal from even the last game, and implies I should change it. Could someone please corroborate this for me? Otherwise it's a bit suspicious (also "thanks" for removing your vote from me and placing it on the probably never getting it Catte).

It's almost 12PM MEST right now, "late afternoon" could be like...4PM? I will be awake and probably active, so for now I'll keep my vote on HSL, but if dedo starts getting votes, I'd be happy to switch too.
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babark: I am not sure what "shoot RWarehall" means. Is it some sort of flavour thing (did Zak ever have a gun?) or some sort of role thing?
I decided to count it as vote, since the intent to kill was apparent, the target was unambiguous and it was bolded.


Official Vote Count
bucktooth 2 - Hyper 360, Ambition 377
Catte 1 - dedo 340
AmbitionZ 2 - RWare 254, frostburn 257
RWare 3 - ZFR 313, bucktooth 336, Joe 373
Hyper 1 - babark 300

RWarehall is in the lead at L-4, it takes 7 votes to lynch
not voting: Catte, Cephy, detective

Please check whether your vote is where you want it to be. We're nearing the deadline (some hours left) and errors on my part would be very regrettable. So please double check my count and give a shout if I counted wrong. ;-)
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Lifthrasil: @detective_razza: DON'T edit any posts again! It's against the rules. Be aware that you have to wait for more than 10 minutes between consecutive posts - or request a bump in the admin thread - because otherwise GOG will merge your posts and they will look like they were merged.[/]
my apologies, i posted twice in a row so it made it appear edited. it won't happen again.
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babark: I am not sure what "shoot RWarehall" means. Is it some sort of flavour thing (did Zak ever have a gun?) or some sort of role thing?
I did something similar in a previous game where I had a day kill power. Or maybe I'm fabricating all of this in my mind, but I could've sworn I shot Krps and nailed him as mafia. I don't know, man. It's been years. It was a low key inside joke to that time when I had that power. God, I had a bunch of fun roles over the years.
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Ambiti0nZ: I shall refrain from making such comments then and I apologize. I don't mean them as harmful as much as how I view the interaction. Your continued attempts at squaring this are appreciated.

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ZFR: It's the "chill" part I don't like. Telling someone to chill when having an argument is not cool. Please don't do it.
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Ambiti0nZ: I see your point. Agreed, I'll avoid that.
Thank you. I appreciate that.

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Ambiti0nZ: I do agree that there has been miscommunication between us and things didn't necessarily translate well.

(SNIP)

I hope you see my point. The number of possibilities here doesn't make for a solid case of why they would have to deal with him only during the night.
I do see your point, and I agree.

Also, from my side apologies if I was a jerk during the exchange. I get carried away.
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RWarehall: Another thing that bugs me are the people that walk away because someone claims "vanilla town". Um, you do know that the best (and practically only safe) claim a scum can make is "vanilla town". Anything else runs the risk of duplicating roles and getting called on the unlikely chance of two cops (for example). That is a bad reason to clear someone. I don't get it. To me, it's a better reason to finish them off. If you had a good enough reason to get someone to the stage they made a claim, and it's "vanilla town", finish them. If you aren't voting them for other reasons, fine. But for those using that as a reason to change their vote? Makes me wonder if they jumped on their buddy's wagon and found a contrived excuse to jump off to save their buddy.
I see your point, but in my experience the usual D1 claim for Mafia who are about to get lynched is a PR. They got nothing to lose anyway, so if they're going down they might as well get something: force a counterclaim reveal, or get a one Day reprieve. Off the top of my head (and these are just anecdotal examples) the few times we managed to nail a scum on D1 and get them close to lynch (scene in Arstotzkan Boot Camp, Carradice in Pooka's Egyptian game, trent in Lift's Fallout), they all claimed PR (trent had a safe claim provided) and lived another Day because of it.

(Though of course there is also always the WIFOM bit: I'll claim Vanilla because D1 Mafiosi will want to claim PR).

Vanilla is the best and safest claim later in the game. As you said, there is no counterclaim and you are not forced to provide any actions or investigative results from previous Days that could be disproven.

So Ambitionz's VT claim struck me as Townie.
(PS, thinking over it now, maybe the reason I got a teeny Town lean on Joe is because he read it the same way I did).

(off to continue reading... If anyone is here you can bump in case I need it).
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Lifthrasil: not voting: Catte, Cephy, detective
Please vote. Few hours left. What on earth are you waiting for??
Are we really considering that, just because we do not have the evidence and it may not provide us with anything, we would not kill someone?

This is not an afternoon at nana's house, my friends. This is a game of mafia. We must have blood.
For my own convenience, I"m rearranging the VC from highest to lowest:

RWare 3 - ZFR 313, bucktooth 336, Joe 373
bucktooth 2 - Hyper 360, Ambition 377
AmbitionZ 2 - RWare 254, frostburn 257
Catte 1 - dedo 340
Hyper 1 - babark 300

This doesn't look good, and scum's happy letting it go to NL. @all my fellow townies - can we work on making this Lunch happening?.

I will reiterate that bucktoothgamer's having done and still doing nothing to consolidate the votes is suspect - look at his latest posts, are these the posts of a townie that wants a Lunch to happen?

From a quick skim of posts:
- The fact that right now I'm the only one on is depressing.
- detective_razza showed online when I came on; the fact they left without placing a vote is a bad look.
- Catte just unvoting bucktoothgamer, and only musing who he should vote but doing nothing is a bad look.
- JoeSapphire's reluctance with which he switched his vote smells funny; I really don't get why he'd want me dead this badly when he's providing zero reasons for it. Would he go for bucktoothgamer?
- babark wanting more confirmation about my SOP to perhaps change his mind without having a plan for where to go if/when he gets it, and only considering dedoporno as an alternative if he doesn't, isn't a good look.
- RWarehall's posts sound reasonable, problem is that he's pretty good at sounding reasonable as both alignments, and revealing his method isn't really AI. The only thing giving me a bit of pause is bucktoothgamer voting him with a reason that, even after his clarification, I don't get how it translates into scum!RWarehall for him.
- LordCephy leaving without a vote after spending a number of posts last night on things that don't have any bearing on toDay's Lunch is curious.
- Ambiti0nZ not letting go of an argument, and butting heads used to be very much town!him. I've not seen this mellowing at the end attitude before, and hope it's just due to him having grown/matured.

I don't want to think this is going to end in NL.
I'll bite. I'm beginning to think bucktoothgamer is our best hope. Still find it unlikely we'll get the numbers given the situation, but...
Finding out who Ambiti0nZ was took a lot of wind out of those sails anyway. Makes he play for more NAI.

Unvote Ambiti0nZ
Vote bucktoothgamer
I mean, I could switch to bucktooth, but it won't drive the wagons forward.
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bucktoothgamer: Let me give it a shot:

The base level assumption for posting frequency is that Mafia like to lurk and Town tend to post more frequently.

With this being the case, people tend to assume that at least one or more scum will post a lot of white noise to come off as trying to figure out the game and look town.

In my opinion the problem with that scum REALLY DO want to limit the amount they post. Even the highest tier of scum player will eventually get caught in a lie if they one of if not the most active poster in a game.

In the first day of the game where you are at a full player roster, the odds of you pulling a scum out of the highest posting players who's content just doesnt look towards solving the game are slim to none.
A lot of theory and nothing solid as to why and how all this translates into scum!RWarehall for you.


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bucktoothgamer: Since these list of questions being unanswered concerns you, let me respond: [...]
This is such a different tone than what you had last game. On top of that, I'd expect you to be more concerned about the split votes, and the very much real danger of ending the Day in NL.


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bucktoothgamer: [...]

1. If I compared the two complete opposites of who I found to be on the Town/Scum spectrum, me saying "I find [Townie McTownerson] more town than you, [Evil Scummonster]" would still be valid. As we all know at the time the ZFR-Frostburn debacle was really the only adversity we had to analayze at the time. So yes looking at ZFR and Fronstburn in a Vaccuum and picking between the two of them and placing a vote would be an action that I could have found very little fault in anyone doing. [...]
What sort of round-about argument is this? We're not playing in a vacuum, and when you find someone to be scummy, you usually say they're scummy, not someone you town-read is more town than them.
This feels like the "more credit" argument from game #46 I had with scum!trentonl about his scum-buddy.


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bucktoothgamer: [...] 2. Even if AmbitionZ was just presenting another side to the argument of "what do we do with someone who hints at a PR", its a take I wasnt a fan of. Their argument is basically "They're not going to do anything productive D1, so we should consider voting them out so Scum can't railroad them D2/3/4/etc." Why would'nt Town!AZ at least want to let PR Frostburn live into N1 and give them a chance to use their role. If theyre scum? we pull apart their lies as we question them on what actions they took during the night.[...]
Why do you insist on this? Even after you allegedly changed your mind about Ambiti0nZ?


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bucktoothgamer: [...] 3. So I lied a bit here. I was referring to the previous game #75, where we mislynched Carradice(Town Watcher) and Pooka(Town Vanilla) back to back. So it was not two PRs in a row but my argument still stands with Carradice: we lost a PR the very first day without him even mentioning it, many players lamenting that they would have pulled their votes back if he claimed.

With having this previous knowledge, I would be doing Town a disservice by not mentioning it to try and avoid a similar fate. Wouldn't you agree? [...].
Sure, I just doubt you had Town's best interest at heart, and think that you exaggerated intentionally in order to paint Ambiti0nZ in a bad as possible light.



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JoeSapphire: Are we really considering that, just because we do not have the evidence and it may not provide us with anything, we would not kill someone?

This is not an afternoon at nana's house, my friends. This is a game of mafia. We must have blood.
Sure, lets lynch JoeSapphire.