Wait, are you saying that you just then went through the thread? So, when I said that you're not paying attention to the game (post #173), I was right?


Do you intend to partake in any of the discussions?

*checks further down*

Apparently not.


[emphasis added, after correcting the initial bold tags]

I need you to provide evidence on the part I highlighted. With specifics and posts.

I'd also say this feels quite OMGUS-y (for the uninitiated: Oh My God You Suck), and the addition of that last sentence reads like you have no conviction in both your read and vote, and proceeded to case and vote me because your level of participation was questioned multiple times by a number of people, myself included, and felt pressured to provide something. The question is, from which side did you do it?

I'm noting it down for toMorrow; my check reveals you haven't played since game #42, so I'm leaning towards extending the courtesy that was given to me in game #75, and shelve you for toDay.



I'm having a hard time parsing what you're saying here; could you rephrase this, please?


I had to ISO myself, because I don't remember questioning FrostburnPhoenix prior to post #325, and hey, look at that - I hadn't! So now I wonder - did you just piggy-back on babark's arguments adding your own flavour on the case here? I mean, there are no original thoughts, and the one argument you made in an attempt to paint me as scum-buddies with FrostburnPhoenix is fabricated. Now, why would you do that?

You're very lucky you have newbie protection toDay.


The questioning is to try and understand the mind set behind the expressed suspicions, and see if the reactions of all involved parties can tell me anything about their alignment.

Since you claim you don't understand why I question people, how do you go about game-solving?



It does. I have a thought about that, but don't want to influence their reply to my post #325, whenever that comes.


[emphasis added]

That's an interesting way of phrasing it. Could you expand a bit?

And I like the point in post #328.


No it doesn't, and you didn't TIL. From the MafiaUniverse Wiki.


I was the one who said it, and since then I checked - he's played in games #40 - #42, so I'm willing to give him the courtesy I received last game, but just for toDay.


No, I too find it pretty alarming, does it count? And am inclined to think there's a scum among my very eager voters.



Does this mean you're now town leaning/reading Ambiti0nZ? What changed your mind?

Also, on a different note - do you remember in your first game the discussion about helpful players towards newbies? Do you still subscribe to that, and if yes, do you have any related observations this game?



@LordCephy, sorry for your kitten, hope things turn around, and sooner than later.



Let me see if I understand this correctly - you're voting me because you think the votes to get my wagon over are there? Is that it? Or do you have an actual reason to want me lunched?


Why, getting ready to make another jump back?

I'd like a couple of replies to this post before I lay out a case on whom I prefer to take to lunch. I'll be around or at least check the thread for a while, and see if they come in. Else I'm going to lay it out with a vote, adding everyone else I'm willing to vote for.



I don't quite follow what exactly your reasoning is. Could you elaborate?

If you post twice in a row within 10 minutes they will merge and appear as edited.

Like Joe, I think the vanilla claim, and the way it was done, gave a slight Town lean.

(I'm still willing to vote AmbitionZ, if only to remove a distraction).


Man, you remembered that...

No, while it was an observation I made during my face to face games, I don't think I ever saw it particularly hold on these online forums.

Sorry for the lateness. Laundry is done, but I was dealing with cat issues and an OCD household member. I'll be away again for a bit, but it's only about 3pm here... so I'll be back (hopefully soon.) I'm caught up to approximately page 17.



I think he means newbie as in has not played here before, which I can see the advantage in doing. If you lynch someone new to your game on day one, they remain a complete unknown in the next game. The unofficial rule gives more opportunity to get to know people before you start killing them off.


Okay! I cannot always tell.

I'm totally pro-cat and love all cats. I have 322 hours on Divine Divinity and since this game takes about 70 hours to finish at most, that's at least 252 hours of game time just dinking around with the game's cats. I currently live with four special needs cats. Not everyone can make time for cats with issues, but I can. When people said that Catte cannot be mafia because he was mafia last game, I just wanted to be true for no reason other than cat. I just don't want to lynch beloved Sanspoof.

I really did at one time live with as many cats as are in this picture. -> https://i.imgur.com/mdyzdKj.png

Yep. I"m totally guilty of being a crazy cat person.


My reply to your post and the next post are pretty much the same, so I'll cover them together.

Now on to Frost -

First let's consider a bit further that he's lying about his prior experience...

If you go to https://wiki.mafiascum.net, you'll only find role madness and role claim if you scroll to the bottom of the page and read the glossary with it's 219 entries. I could find no other way to just browse this and encounter these terms. Why would a completely new player with no past experience beyond playing one game spend time reading the glossary to learn jargon they might not need and not even read the first post of this thread? I ask this question because on the very first post, Lifthrasil gives out a "Sample Vanilla PM" and a "Sample PR PM."

If you are a very new player that never played before and are a townie with a special role, why would you look at "Sample Vanilla PM" then think that you're in a role madness game? You only know your own role. Even if your role is something like daytime investigator, you'll know your role plus the role of the one person you have investigated. Even if that second person has a special role, why would you think you're in a role madness game? There's that "Sample Vanilla PM" on the first page that says that there can be vanilla roles, and you only know two role identities out of twelve at this point.

However if you are an experienced player on the mafia side, you may have skipped the first post because let's face it. The rules of mafia are pretty much the same everywhere and even after ten years on another website, the rules here look pretty much as I remembered them except for there being a much longer day/night cycle here (even though I've been getting thrown off at times by acronyms.) The player on the mafia side is going to know all the identities and role functions of their co-conspirators even though you can only have secret meetings during the night phase. If there are three to four mafia members, each with a special role, they might jump to the conclusion that it's a role madness game. (Although saying that, four mafia with special roles in a 12-person game does seem excessive.)

Now, I'm sure that someone is going to point out that the "Sample Vanilla PM" will show up in the first post even in role madness games, but why would a legit new player who never played before and is on the town side have any reason to believe that they are in a role madness game after seeing that? Once again if you're lying about your experience, what else are you lying about?


One point that I think that I never actually got around to yesterday is that I will not under any circumstances accept on face value a situation where someone should be granted total lynch immunity, and that's what it really gets down to with Frost.

If someone is a townie and has a special role function, all other townies then have an obligation to keep that person alive no matter what the function is. You don't want to lynch the Doctor that can protect people from being killed by the mafia or the Investigator that can confirm people's roles. It doesn't matter if you are a vanilla townie and therefore have no means of finding out what that person's special role function actually does. You are obligated to keep your special townies alive once you become aware of who they are. No matter how many bodies pile up, you're supposed to say Frost is our very special ally and friend. We can never lynch him. Nobody should be handed out total lynch immunity on day one unless Lifthrasil's message about their role function is that they cannot be lynched no matter what.

As I said previously, a mafia member will never honestly self-reveal their role function because then everyone would just vote to lynch them. Nobody is obligated to be truthful when they self-reveal a role function, which means that just offering to self-reveal a special role implies town even if they don't actually reveal it.


Now you're probably wondering why I don't have the same feelings about Ambiti0nZ, who role claimed vanilla town (see post 282.) I think this was more of a reaction to the fact that there were four votes to have him lynched, and some of those votes were likely in response to the spat with ZFR.

Even before Ambiti0nZ made this post, everything going on between these two really did come off as two townies looking at a wall and arguing with each other as to if the color is white, pearl, alabaster, snow, cotton, chiffon, daisy, powder, or porcelain. I'm color-blind and just named off all the shades that look 100% identical to each other.
https://www.color-meanings.com/wp-content/uploads/shades-of-white-color-names-1.png


I think that you noticed for yourself that there's a lot of inconsistencies with FrostburnPhoenix's posts that just make him look untrustworthy. He's quick to accuse people with reasons that make no sense, such as when he tried saying that I was mafia for voting for babark on the basis that I don't think this guy is participating and might be laying low. Oh and there's his most recent post where he's acting like I'm conspiring with Ambiti0nZ (post #339) on the basis that all of our conversations are superficial.

You'd think that Frost would want to accuse me of being mafia after making three long posts that essentially say that I don't trust Frost and think he's mafia. More so after that one where I express my opinion of everyone and only call him mafia. That's not his reasoning at all. All of his focus on me has been on the level of putting on makeup to go poison Gotham's water supply.


I think he was voting for you. Saying that, my opinion of you is unchanged. To me, you seem like someone who has very busy in real life and posts as much as they are able to, which isn't often but you try to get a lot done in a very short amount of time.

It's just the natural response I had. I typed what went through my mind when I read it, there was no real agenda. I don't know what else to tell you man. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's safe to say there are a lot of "X vs Cadaver" incidents. ;)

i keep deleting the wrong quote number- help xD
i need to pay more attention :’))

it's the shrug of scum!!! The last two games I played in somebody shrugged off an accusation and they were both scum!

I'd vote catte except HypersomniacLive is trying to pressure me off his wagon simply because I have no particular reason to be on it and That Is Not Good Enough reason for me to shift. Not moving.

(Context added in brackets. Also I’m on phone so I had to hand type out quote 251, hopefully it worked)
Anyways. you just said you didn’t question Frost (see below) before post #325, when you questioned both Frost and ZFR in post #250, so my argument was not fabricated, you asked them to elaborate for you, which I perceive as questioning.

Of course, I believe that questioning is a valid way of game solving, it’s how the game works- however my point is that you questioned ZFR, Cephy, bucktooth and dedo about Frost being scum and why they thought that on page 13. But in the 11 questions you asked about the ZFR and Frost conflict, only one was directed at Frost- the rest was at everyone else, listed above. So I thought I’d try and put something together from your different response in behaviour towards Frost in comparison to everyone, and why you were so set on figuring out why everyone was suspicious of them.

^^ it would appear through the arguing of ZFR and Frost and ZFR and AZ, i’ve gotten them confused and so yes, some of the evidence for my argument is invalid xD

ig the point still stands that HSL didn’t question Frost at all during that, but questioned others about it- however i will removed my vote on HSL to prove that i’m not forcing arguments out of nowhere.
pfft-

unvote HSL

OCD, which I mentioned in my other post for part of the reason for the delay, is Obsessive compulsive disorder. There's someone else in the house that went into a cleaning rampage on the level of "I saw one speck of dust and must drown the entire bathroom in bleach!" I'm feeling a bit off from it so if I make anything that doesn't make sense, please do let me know.

On the bright side, you get my undivided attention for the next hour. I'm not a super fast typer, by the way, but I'll try to be quick.


I covered this in the three big posts! But, I went into my logic/thinking way more in post #349, so you probably only need that one post there.

If you have any specific questions, let me know. I will answer them. :)


I think you noticed why when I threw in a serious vote, I tossed it at babark due to not realizing he was considered new to this game. I may convinced that Frost is mafia, but I really dislike this sort of hit-and-run participation where it feels like the person is deliberately trying to not contribute anything.


I'm entirely okay with people questioning me. I'm fairly new here, having only joined the site itself in March 2021 and this is my first mafia game on GOG. It's not like I've really interacted with anyone in this thread before now, so it's completely understandable that they might have no clue as to how I think. JoeSapphire and HypersomniacLive, for example, give me the impression that they gain more out of interviewing people and asking questions than they ever would by just observing things. It's also okay if they ask me more questions than someone else.

Some random things about me:
Likes: cats, cephalopods, crustaceans, classic movies, baking, The Great British Bake-Off, other baking shows, some cooking shows
Dislikes: spiders, cockroaches, over using cleaning products
Doesn't Understand: people that make posts on GOG about how they're boycotting GOG because it's like going to any physical store then walking through all the aisles, grabbing other customers and telling them that they're not buying stuff at that store
Note: easily distracted, would like to bake a Queen of Puddings but cannot get a good meringue yet

Let me give it a shot:

The base level assumption for posting frequency is that Mafia like to lurk and Town tend to post more frequently.

With this being the case, people tend to assume that at least one or more scum will post a lot of white noise to come off as trying to figure out the game and look town.

In my opinion the problem with that scum REALLY DO want to limit the amount they post. Even the highest tier of scum player will eventually get caught in a lie if they one of if not the most active poster in a game.

In the first day of the game where you are at a full player roster, the odds of you pulling a scum out of the highest posting players who's content just doesnt look towards solving the game are slim to none.

i’m sorry to hear that, cephy.. i know how hard that is, from both angles, i hope both you and your family member are alright.

Good thing I don't have that.

highest posting players who *is* content. Indeed.

Remind me toMorrow to share a thought here, after Ambiti0nZ answers my questions - if we're all still here, that is.


I remember it because I'm suspicious by nature towards too much niceness, and I've seen more than one scum use this sort of thing to buddy up to town.


@LordCephy, a few things:

- It's pretty disorienting when you mention page numbers as we're on different forum settings, so I'd appreciate it if you either changed yours to 50 posts/page or refer to post ranges/numbers so it's easier to understand where you're at without having to make calculations.
- When you get caught up, you'll see that babark isn't new to GOG forum mafia, he's played 3 games here but it was a very long time ago.
- I appreciate the follow up on FrostburnPhoenix, however it's quite lengthy and it's pretty late for me and I'm tired, and since they are off the table toDay, I'm going to leave the thorough reading of it for toMorrow.
- As for the last bit of your post #349 - I only asked because it seemed odd that you expressed uncertainty in post #285 (rather late into the Day) as to if HSL = me. It had nothing to do with your opinion of me, and I don't quite get why you thought necessary to reinforce it there.



*cracks Indy's whip on JoeSapphire's knuckles*

Suit yourself.



I really need you to go and quote the post where you claim that I directed a question to FrostburnPhoenix - hint: post #250 definitely isn't it, and #251 isn't it either - because I've already ISO'd myself and there's no questioning of them, like at all, before post #325.


Note: Not reading/replying to any posts after this as it's very late, and I need to go to bed a.s.a.p., so on to my voting preferences.

With so many people off the table, I'm willing to vote bucktoothgamer, JoeSapphire, Catte, and RWarehall - bucktoothgamer is my preference, regarding the rest I'll join any wagon to reach majority. If it weren't for D1-protection I'd also be willing to vote detective_razza and babark.

So, I

Vote bucktoothgamer

for the following reasons:

1. He's completely ignored my questioning of him in post #251, in spite posting 4 times after it - post #295 to correct LordCephy's VC, post #307 to educate FrostburnPhoenix on GOG forum mafia culture about voting lurkers, post #312 to comment on my SOP, and post #336 to vote RWarehall.

2. What I find interesting is that the guy that made it his mission to consolidate wagons in order to achieve Lunch in the last game, especially on D1, seems indifferent this time, not bothered by the fact that the votes are split over several wagons:

2.1 Post #197 - jokingly threatens Catte with another RVS (had already an RVS vote there which he removed by the end of this post); lists a potential voting pool as everyone but the newbies; states intent to vote Ambiti0nZ but withholds his vote because {and I quote] Note that the VC at the time was 2.2 At the time of his post #218, the VC was: yet no opinion on anyone, no attempt to consolidate the wagons, even if without actually voting.

2.3 By the time of his post #307, Lifthrasil had already stated how he'd handle the exact time of EoD (post #299), and the VC was yet bucktoothgamer is still happy to ignore a potential No-Lunch.

2.4 When he voted RWarehall (post #336), the VC turned into: So he created another 2-votes wagon, with reasoning that's not clear to me if and how it says "RWarehall scum above others" or if it's just "I don't want to vote any of the others".

Thoughts?

I'm off to bed. From what Lifthrasil said in post #331, I'll make an extra effort and make it for EoD. I'll try to keep an eye on the thread during the hours before, but note that, unlike all the cool kids today, I don't phone post.

Night all.