Presumably it's more of a meta thing, to compare scum!gogtrial and town!gogtrial to ????!gogtrial.

You're right. I didn't even imply such correlation yet you went out of your way to make a thing out of it and explain statistics and fallacies.

I have a reason to ask and my question stands. If you can answer [correctly] on gogtrial's behalf, that's welcome. Otherwise my question is directed to him.

1. Not going to dignify this with a response. Well, yes, I seem to be. That's not what I meant--I only know about myself.
2. Have you decided?
3. :O Sweet.

++++++++++

it might be something you have done (you say, but I don't recall), but has gogtrial done so? I remember not at all.

+++++++++++

Well, i stated afterwards that i didn't bother to do a vote count and didn't think mine was the 3rd vote but (at most) the 2nd.
I'm more interested in gogtrial who placed a 3rd and 4th vote on Catte and Joe, respectively. I won't vote Phaolo toDay unless they royally mess up out of D1 courtesy to 1st-timers (Don't worry though, this courtesy, which exists to let you play your night actions @Phaolo, goes away when Day 2 dawns.)

++++++++

i didn't read last game hardly at all, so i have no clue. Also, i thought it wasn't so much ZFR who made it happen so much as Yogsloth? But I digress. I still don't see it as a thing this game, whereas it might have been with a 13 or 14 player game. Most of my early games did not have Day chat, so i still tend to be of the mindset that it isn't there.

++++++++

I am willing to vote Joe (serious vote) or gogtrial based on both a general feeling of scumminess (for each of them), Joe's asking questions, talking a lot of fluff, but not giving opinions, and gogtrials manufacturing accusations.
i couldn't tell you who is sucmmier, however.
I do like Joe's 141, as his random thinking patterns are both entertaining to read and informative of his mindset. They could also be carefully contrived to mislead the unsuspecting, so by itself it does not clear him.

GH needs to give some opinions. ANYTHING that we can sink our teeth into and hold against him later ;P
Similarly, Phaolo needs to say more so we can get a read on him.
Catte needs to post something substantial, as his last substantial post was some time back.
Same for Vitek and nmillar.
Y'know what...i could say this for basically everyone. Except Lift, Dedo, and Joe, who have put time recently into making posts filled with on-topic convo that can be analyzed. Maybe someone else has while i've been tying this. I hope so.
Someone, please mess up royally so we can identify you and tape you to the wall with ducttape and then take pictures of you for the scrapbook of villeins.

Actually, doing an ISO, NMillar has said nothing game-relevant post-rvs, and almost nothing before that. 11 of 150 posts, voted in RVS for "tradition" Unvoted, and voted GH in a tit-for-tat vote. Since then, nothing relevant.

FOS NMillar

Just so it's clear, this is a vote.
Anything that can be parsed as
(spell name) (user)
on a new line is a valid vote. If you want to make sure something is not counted as a vote, don't bold it or don't put it on a new line or, and I shudder to say it, add something like "this is not a vote" after the name.

Vote Count

nmillar 2 - trent, Micro
Joe 1 - gogtrial
catte 1 - GH
Micro 1 - Joe
gogtrial 1 - phaolo
phaolo 1 - Vitek
GH 1 - nmillar
Vitek 1 - Lift

Not voting - dedo, blotunga, catte,

nmillar is closest at L-5

12 players in game. Takes 7 to lynch.

Whenever you see a vote count from me, please make sure your name is against the correct person. Let me know if there are any mistakes.

The roulette game is the only game in which I've ever been straight up mafia.
I was true neutral in #55 (Stanley Hotel) (live or die in the same way as my sister, who drew heat, so we jestered out).
I was tragic lover (rolled town, but had an anti-town win condition) together with Joe in #55 (Arstotzkan boot camp).
Every other game I've been town. (For the peanut gallery: Yes, including this one.)

Please show me on the doll where I manufactured "accusations"?

I started an argument. I pushed Catte on something which didn't deserve pushing, observed how he reacted, and pushed some more.
I never accused Catte of anything.

EBWOP:
I was true neutral in #65 (Stanley Hotel) (live or die in the same way as my sister, who drew heat, so we jestered out).

Thanks. I didn't think it was a vote when i wrote it
Unvote NMillar
vote Joe
as I expected it to be when I Finger-of-suspicion (not a vote) NMillar

you are right, i did and ISO of you and realzied I had misremembered except a backhanded one in the post where you vote Joe (77) and where you claim there is a difference between regular me and me in this game up to that point (2 posts, both flavour-heavy) .

i also read your as an half-accusation that Catte wasn't being serious enough or something.
However, I partly-withdraw my "accusation" claim.

I actually seem to have some energy this evening. Time for catching up!

If trent flips scum, town points to blotunga for this. I had a bit of a good feeling about trent due to his read, and this post janked me out of it.

Could publicly attacking town-reads be an effective scum strategy? Hmm, I don't really think so.

Did you do so? Anything noteworthy?

My vote on Joe was indeed serious.

What makes you think I want that?
Being 3rd or 4th on a wagon which otherwise consists solely of RVS votes, does not mean that wagon is going anywhere. It didn't for Catte, it didn't for me, it didn't for Joe. I don't know what strikes me as scummier - believing otherwise, or pretending to believe otherwise...

In my first two games, I actually kept notes on each and every vote. I learned quickly that this doesn't help my enjoyment of the game, and wasn't very useful either. My notes these days are far shorter - just pointers to puzzling comments and things to check up on later. For everything else, I go back to reread (mostly skimming for the shape of things) and see it anew with active knowledge.

Was this a response to something in particular? Because on the face of it, that statement just seems so... vacuous?

If I learned one thing with playing mafia, it's that you can't rely on others to get what you want. If you believe it's worth it, you have to do the legwork yourself. This whole fatalistic sitting back, "oh, I want to analyze something, but there's nothing to analyze"... if you haven't actively haunted your fellow players, then you have no one to blame but yourself!
(If that resonates, go and take another look at my argument with Catte.)

I also wasn't around for a while and apparently the day-chat started to creep in during that time. ZFR told me last game (which also had a day-chat) that he considered himself among the (if not The) people who made it a lot more regular than it used to be. Anyway, it's your choice what to assume but try to keep an open mind for the alternative.

You are aware that their interaction and what partially made Joe look worse than before kind of puts them against each other, right? Even more so if your belief that there is no scum-chat is correct.


Thanks. Trent Town-read you based on behavior based on past games. Would you say his control sample (the game(s) when you were scum) and your respective playstyle were correctly noted as an argument? Did you play in the way he explained on your non-Town games? If yes, can you think of an example?


Why didn't you place your actual vote back then?

I'm sorry, everyone. I just ran by the admin thread and I think I'll stay away for a day or two from the game as I don't feel like playing right now. @ZFR, let me know if this is a problem.

Actual claim, joke, or deliberately not saying while keeping both possible?

So do all who live in D1. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to contribute on the D1 that is given to us.

And your contributions... are severely lacking.

I understand that you have nothing solid to base anything on. None of us do. But there's still plenty happening, and you can actively point out what of those things you like and dislike, and why. By doing so, other players can see consistency of thought - or strange jumps that could point to scum trying to prevent a buddy from being lynched. By not doing so, by hiding in the shadows, you're providing cover for scum to hide alongside you without standing out. Or, of course, hoping to blend in with the actual town players who're doing so.

Let's take one of the strongest stances which has happened in the game so far, trent's #74. An actual town-read. And not just any town-read, but a town-read on me, the person you're voting with what I read as a somewhat serious (for D1 standards) vote.
Trent has been questioned about his read, and has responded to this in #97, #111 and #138.

What do you make of trent's read and explanation? Any parts that ring true? Any parts that you dislike?

And then, look wider.
Micro questioned trent's read in #75 and #90.
Vitek was reminded of scum!trent in #76.
blotunga indicated strong dislike for trent's read in #81.
Blotunga then followed up with a remark about microfish in #84, which Lift spun out to an entire subthread via #85, #91, #100 and #113.
Joe questioned trent's read in #98.
dedo said he didn't like trent's read, but liked his explanations of the read in #134

So we have two players questioning trent on his read, two finding his read scummy to some degree, one who is ambivalent, and no one else saying much at all about it (I think; I might've missed someone else commenting; not pretending to be complete here).
How "pure" and solid do you feel each of those reactions to be if trent is town? What if trent is scum?

Same questions for you! Any thoughts at all about trent's town-read of me?

See, it doesn't work so well if you only do it after having been prompted... :/
I do however like your questioning of trent.

I find it interesting how you shifted from disliking trent's read to disliking the "dynamic" between us. For the record, based on this "dynamic", do you find it likely that I could be scum without trent being so? Do you find it likely that trent could be scum without me being so?

Is this solely based on the "speed" of the wagon, or on anything else?
The votes on Joe's wagon were blotunga (#10, RVS), catte (#20, RVS), microfish (#75, RVS, unaware of being 3rd), gogtrial (#77, serious). I wasn't actually aware my vote would be the 4th one (I'd seen micro's vote while pre-post reloading, but wasn't conscious of Joe having two previous RVS votes, rather than the customary one), but was okay with it being the 3rd, and knowledge of it being the 4th wouldn't have stopped me.

Lift is sometimes described as "more aggressive" (with shading) when scum. I see this, I see his "This looks a bit like 'follow the leader'" to blotunga in #85, I see the way he posted #133, helpfully analyzing all 3+ vote wagons and noting how I was involved in two of them (I guess I wasn't involved with my own wagon?). I go "Hmmm..." [insert relevant meme here]
I know myself as being completely unable to accurately read Lift, though.

I wasn't saying I haven't made any accusations. My vote for Joe was serious, and can thus be described as an accusation. If you meant that vote when you wrote "gogtrials manufacturing accusations", then I question your use of the word "manufacturing". (I thought it a reference to me "manufacturing an argument" with Catte.)

You now also drag "my claim" about your "your difference" into the picture. (As an example of an accusation I made?) You're referring here to my #52. I already explained to you in #80 that that post was about GH, not about you. (Which you acknowledged in #90, but have now forgotten about again?)

I have to say, I don't like your paraphrasing in quotes, as you seem to do so in a way which twists what was said before. First "silly argument", and now "argument vs accusation", where you conveniently leave out your phrasing "gogtrials manufacturing accusations", without which the discussion seems to have quite a different context.

I think his observation has merit, yes, based on the way I haunted scene in #55, trying to look as townie as possible. The thing here was that I knew scene would flip scum, so all I had to do was to keep digging, certain in the knowledge that his slips were real. (Of course, I didn't set out with that intent, but scene's answers were such that I couldn't back off.) I don't think my behaviour in that particular setting transposes very well to a regular game, where I couldn't do any real scum-hunting, so I'm doubting the strength of trent's town-read - but it's been 2+ years, so I can certainly believe that he's been left with that impression about my play.
I've been wondering if the same was true of my behaviour as a neutral player in Stanley Hotel, but can't think of any specific examples, either pro or con.


okay, that ran entirely too long, and it's late again. Probably little from me tomorrow, but I should be back in full force on Friday.
(Hoping I didn't mess up any of my links - if I did, a bump would be welcome.)

It isn't. I'll extend the Day if necessary.

This just stuck out to me upon re- reading the thread. This, as reaction to being voted, looks very much like LAMIST. A show of how innocent and interested in discussion one is. 'Look at me, I even welcome votes on me!"

You know what, nmillar, I'll give you the attention you crave:

Attentio nmillar


@micro: even though I see nmillar as potential scum, your FOS looks really off. One, FOS is rather scummy in itself. A way of showing activity without actually committing. Two, in a game where all kinds of words are permitted as votes, as long as they are bolded and on a separate line, it surprises me, that you are surprised that your bolded, separate line was counted as vote.

So, non RVS scum leanings: nmillar and Micro.

Others I'll have to analyse once I'm home again. Since i can't ISO on mobile.

1. Thank you for clarifying that it was not an RVS vote.

2. yes, that was a response to
3. I see. Thank you for this advice, I shall try to take it to heart.

++++++++++++++++++

4. Okay, fair enough. it isn't worth debating in any way.

5. That's why I said Joe or gogtrial, as unless there is extreme bussing going on, i don't see them both being on the same scum team (one of them could have rolled neutral,but we have no proof of that as yet.)

6. I was actively voting Joe, and didn't intend to unvote him.
@Lift I didn't realize that FOSs looke scummy, and have used them in basically every game since i learned of them for times when i suspect someone but don't have enough concrete proof to vote.

I still need to respond to the bulk of GOGtrial's 163. I really like his analysis as presented to Phaolo and what a mafia player ought to be doing.

your first paragraph here: See Vitek's 87, notably: the phrases in question was it started as a misunderstanding that the argument you had with Catte was an accusation. This impression has stuck in my head despite hearing and proof to the contrary (similar to Joe's "panik" in a previous game.)
I was using the phrasing of yourself, vitek, Catte (120) and others. I was also interpreting what you said in further discussions about that strategy that your playstyle in that instance (vs Catte) included "arguing and accusing without any proof to try and kickstart something", and I tend to see this as neutral at best and scummy at worst. I interpolated the two as the same in that one phrase in question, which you properly defended and set me straight on the difference between the two. See my response to your 3rd Para for more on this.
(I'm not telling you to change your playstyle, as it is valid, but I just find it unusual at present. Maybe in 10 more games I'll be doing the same thing.)

Adding to this your second paragraph, I brought up the claim about my "difference" as a time where, looking back, it could be argued that you were making an accusation--not to me, granted, but about me to another. You explained that you weren't, and I'm taking it mostly at face value, but I must keep in mind that you might be scum trying to blacken my play to another townplayer. As such, I have not forgotten that you meant it at GH, but am not willing to entirely forget that the discussion took place in case of future events.

Your 3rd paragraph. Apologies. A few games ago (67) ZFR and others expressed frustration at my responding to a long post and merely saying . So, I tried to be more specific but was lazy in these two instances and summarized enough so that you would know what I was referring to, without thinking about how it might look to others. (The first "silly argument" was my defense of your questioning GH about me, and again, i was not calling you silly, but was deriding the conclusions you seemed to be drawing.)
I will be more specific in future (like this post).

Does this answer your questions? I'm being paged and can't develop my thoughts more fully atm, but hope this helps.

I intend to further respond to other bits of posts not directed at me but have no time rn or for another many hours.

Why ask anything as town? To get more info/responses(or lack thereof) to help find scum.

As a veteran player, you should (and likely do) know this already. ;)

(Also did you see my reply in post 146? Any further thoughts?)

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(BUMP NEEDED)