Okay. There's no bump coming. Here's take two. I'll be disheartened if it's still broken.

TAKE-TWO!

Why I think ZFR is scum:
- Overeager since Day 0. He doesn't hesitate in finding the slightest slip to be "stinky" and LAMIST. (18) (20) (27)
- Has pursued me for apparently appearing "busy" in my posts, ignoring that he too was appearing "busy" by the same standards. (107)
- Despite knowing that I'd be nightkilled as a town cop, and not being nightkilled would mean I am scum, he reinstates his vote on me anyway, in an attempt to get a free town lynch. (289)
- Building on the above, two days ago, he stated he didn't want to bring me to L-1 as it was "way too early" (240), yet he voted me some four or five hours ago (see 289), when Agent clearly said there were five days left before the deadline (286). If that isn't "way too early," I don't know what is.

Ok the cop is suppose to find scum yet you choose not to investigate who you think is scum, I still don't understand your reasoning as to why. Your answer is "I investigated someone I had a town read on but wanted to make sure I was right because they could have me fooled". Your reasoning makes no sense. And what do you mean Lift is in a better position even after his mistake? Are you referring to Lift saying there were 3 scum in the game? If the answer to that is yes and you're truly the cop I will do what I've been doing since you've claimed and given your reasons for what you've done *FACE PALM*

The fact that you're at L-1 I don't like right now, we need to discuss things more.

Unvote Pooka

Why doesn't it? It's quite literally making sure we're not in for the long haul and being played by a master scum. It worked for me in the Secret Hitler games I played on Discord, too. The end result was I found scum right away in one of the first games and kept them at bay the whole game, preventing them from getting into government. If I were to ask Micro, who played these games with me, he'll tell you that I'm a fan of this investigation strategy.

Yes, the 3 scum thing. Yet look at the votes being thrown around on D1 then D2. Lift wasn't a strong contender for flub, myself or ZFR. Aside from this thing with the three scum, he could be considered nearly faultless.

Yet here we are in what is turning into a pointless debate because you chose to investigate someone you thought was town instead of someone you thought was scum because you thought it would be better for everyone else to put heat on who you thought was scum instead of investigating them yourself.

As for Lift playing near faultless, that's not an opinion I share. From my perspective I have seen 2 people playing a near faultless game, and we lynched one of them.

Tell me this, if you think ZFR is scum why haven't you voted him?

My "faultless" means their likelihood of being voted is low. Flub was not faultless, ZFR is not, and I am not.

Before the cop claim and after getting to L-2, I didn't want to dig my grave early, so I held off voting until one of two things happened: either the heat was taken off me, or I claimed cop. Now that you're saying it and my attention isn't spread too thin in and out of game, yes, I ought to vote him and should have done that even sooner.

Vote ZFR.

Meh, there was certainly discussion of "investigate leaning-L's to see if they can be trusted." I won't swear that Pooka was the grand ringleader in this, but he certainly wasn't opposed to it; this statement reads true enough to me.

Overall, Pooka--but not all of his conclusions or statements--rings true to me, but he did last game as well (as scum). ZFR seems overeager, maybe he is tunneling, maybe he is scum. If so, it seems out of character for him, considering his previous scum-game. He's too good of a player to be caught so easily, but then there was the whole "colors of leaves in the fall" thing which I thought goofy and everyone else (except scum) thought I was weird for thinking it goofy.
Lift has made errors.
If you do not mind saying so, who is the other who--in your opinion--has played near-flawlessly?

@Pooka, sorry for no bump; I was offline and didn't see the request.

So, you didn't intentionally breadcrumb your investigation result anywhere. Because me agreeing with you can't possibly have any relation with you investigating me. But when asked about breadcrumbing, you implied that you meant to do that with that post, which you even didn't remember correctly. I think, someone who intended to breadcrumb, would remember where and how he did it and wouldn't have had to make something up.

I think, if you really were Town-Cop, you either would have really breadcrumbed your investigation result, or you would have kept it to yourself, because you didn't want to risk revealing yourself until you got a Scum result on someone. And if you had followed the latter strategy, you would have said so when asked about breadcrumbing, instead of making a vague statement out of your head, which then even turns out to be wrong.

Actually, judging by your replies, I am with ZFR by now. I guess you are scum and you tried, as a last effort, to pull out the real cop with your claim.


Another strange way to play. You held back voting out of fear to look bad. Caring about not looking bad is again something, that is more scummy than towny. Also, even after your Cop-claim you waited to vote ZFR until someone else did and trent prodded you about voting. That is, again, not towny. Can it be another mistake on your part? Sure, but the 'mistakes' really pile on and I don't think you would make that many.

Let's have a look at two scenarios:
1: you are scum
- your got under heat and you made the best of your claim by trying to get the real cop to claim
- your claimed investigation target (me) makes sense, as I explained before
- you didn't breadcrumb your investigation result anywhere, because there was no investigation
- when asked about it, you gave a misleading answer
- you are worried about how you look

... all fits

2: you are town
- your claim would be true
- your choice of investigation target would be an error. In a game as short as this, the cop simply doesn't have the time to confirm other players one by one before going for his main suspect
- you didn't breadcrumb your investigation result, but you implied that you meant to do it
- your vote didn't match your words because you were worried how you would look

... scenario 2 doesn't really fit, unless you made several errors. Since you played quite well in past games, I still think, scenario 1 is more likely.


Now, what does that mean? As expected, your appeal was, that lynching you now would ruin the game for Town. But would it? If you are Town, then yes, we lose two of our number. You and another Townie who will be Nightkilled. But that result stays the same if we mislynch someone else who is Town. Because then we lose that mislynch and you, since you will be Nightkilled.
And if you are Scum, you will drive us exactly into that scenario where we lose two Townies, one due to mislynch and one Nightkill. Sure, then you would look really bad Tomorrow, but you will just claim that scum risked it to leave you alive to make you look bad and you will claim a positive result on some Townie, to sow confusion. Again, we have a small game here, so leaving likely scum alive because 'meh, we'll just lynch him tomorrow' is dangerous. If we mislynch today, we're at LYLO tomorrow.

So, in Scenario 1 where you are Town, your usefulness for Town has ended with your claim. So it's down to a pure numbers game and mislynching you would be no worse than mislynching someone else. In Scenario 2 where you are scum, it would be prudent to lynch you as fast as possible.

One alternative to avoid LYLO tomorrow would be no-lynch. But I don't want to go that route. Again, if you are Town, you won't get to report any new investigation results because you will be dead and if you are Scum, you will just sow confusion Tomorrow. So no-lynch would mean a serious loss of information.

Long posting short: I think with the way you claimed and answered to the questions since then, I think you are the most likely scum right now. Therefore I'll put you back at L-1.

vote Pooka

Meh. Whatever.

Someone else can vote me and put me out of my misery. I'm done.

So Red, what are your thoughts on ZFR and Pooka?

I'm sorry if my mistrust has made you lose interest in fighting. However, going back I still come to the same conclusion and your 'giving up' is NAI too. I don't know whether this is 'frustrated Townie giving up' or 'frustrated Scum giving up' or 'Scum pretending to be frustrated as Appeal To Emotion'.

Lift answered this very nicely in post 307. If we leave you alive, but end up mislynching another town, then "not being nightkilled would mean you're scum" is actually meaningless.

We'd by at MYLO after NK. If you're town, scum can NK someone else knowing you're likely as you said, be the D3 lynch. If you're scum, you can claim that you're town and scum are keeping you alive for the above reason. Regardless, there would be way too much confusion for us to extract anything meaningful.

There are four possibilities:

1. We lynch you, you're scum: hooray.
2. We lynch you, you're town: Not so cool. However a major point of confusion gets cleared up, we get some info confirmed about Lift (granted as trent said it's not extremely useful but still), and our loss is at this point no bigger than losing a vanilla townie; as Lift said unfortunately you lost your usefullness when you claimed.

3. We don't lynch you you're scum: we're screwed.
4. We don't lynch you, you're town: we don't lose a cop, but we're in deep crap anyway. You either get NKed and don't give us any additional info, or even worse if we mislynch another town then scum can have a field day by keeping you alive tomorrow.

See, no matter your faction, scenarios 3 and 4 where we don't lynch you lead to much worse situations than 1 and 2 where we do. So even thinking that you could be town, I'd still lynch you. But I'm thinking of that being likely less and less.

And yes, if that post was all you had about breadcrumbing then I'd have believed you more if you simply said you didn't breadcrumb Lift. The fact that you tried finding something reeks (not just smells or stinks) of someone trying to find a breadcrumb where none existed. There is no way a cop consciously makes such a breadcrumb.


Why do people keep saying that? If we mislynch then after the NK it's 3 vs 2 and we're at MYLO. Am I missing something?

bump

But isn't 3 vs 2 LYLO? Lynch or lose. Because if we don't lynch at 3 vs 2, we will be at 2 vs 2 after the next Night - and that will be game over.

...

Sorry, I don't know what happened to me. I thought LYLO was MYLO and vice versa.