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General discussionGOG Mafia #59 - Previously on Mafia...(1130 posts)(1130 posts)
(1130 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted June 21, 2019
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Microfish_1: ............


>Not willing to lunch:
GR--yet--he's very interesting and curious, and I prefer to not yet vote, but see if he is NK'd.
.............
And so much WIFOM if he's not Night Killed.

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flubbucket: In Game #23, mason claims were very effective.
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gogtrial34987: Could you give a summary of what happened to clear up the relevance of your reply to that particular post?

.......<snip>......
In Game #23 we masons became two confirmed townies, which shrank the pool of possible scum.

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gogtrial34987: ........
@flub, can you teach me to be like you?

.........
It's simple.

Take the cap off the bottle, throw it away and don't stop until it's all gone.
Posted June 21, 2019
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flubbucket: In Game #23, mason claims were very effective.
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gogtrial34987: Could you give a summary of what happened to clear up the relevance of your reply to that particular post?
Huh.
One does wonder--given that bold of a claim, so your doing so would be appreciated, Flub.

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JoeSapphire: Did SirP defend supplementscene? I need to re-read this game.
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gogtrial34987: "Defend" is probably a bit stronger a word than what's really warranted, but see my SPF quotes at the bottom of #458.
SirP's comments that you linked here are among the reasons I am voting Scene.

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gogtrial34987: Thank you, btw, for actually writing some opinions on my line of reasoning. I've been having the feeling that I'm talking into the void here.
(Which, come to think of it, is hopeful in itself! If I was completely wrong, then remaining mafia would've had cause to publicly support my line of reasoning and steer us wrong like that. So I'm going to conclude that I'm at least partly right, and that there's at least one mafia in scene, Joe, Bookwyrm, trent!)
((Except of course if mafia only skim the thread and/or find my posts too much work to read, and prefer waiting for the CliffsNotes, so never picked up on the opportunity...)) :(
Very interesting analyses--rest assured that you aren't talking into the void; I've been reading, if not always following / comprehending / what-have-you, everything (I try, but not so hard that my head explodes...I did that in 57, and do not wish to again). I see Book being capable of being a very good godfather; I expect I'd never pick up on it. Godfather-Joe looks equally difficult for me to pick up on. I don't suspect either of them, much, but am aware of WIFOM on my part along the lines of "are the folks I instinctively trust at this point actually trustworthy?" stuff. ARRRGH.

What do you think of Dedo? GR? Gogtrial? Pooka? Flub? Which of Scene, Joe, Book, and Trent do you suspect most (different from who you think is most lunchable today)?

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Microfish_1: >Willing to lunch GOGtrial, he strikes me as fishy, his playstyle is too similar to that of Scum!HSL for me to be comfortable--though he was right about the sequence of events; I misread earlier. (HSL, if/when you read this, this is a compliment to you & your play in #57)
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gogtrial34987: FWIW, I also consider this a compliment. (Also, have you ever played with town!HSL? Because my playstyle might also remind you of that, given how indistinguishable the two are for HSL.)
I'll be happy to have you take it as a compliment, even if I think you are a bit fishy overall. I've sadly never had the pleasure of playing with t!HSL; I've only played one game with him, and he had me fooled (or at least befuddled) until literally in the last 24 IRL hrs of that game.

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gogtrial34987: ...snip...
isn't WIFOM just the best?

Also, this seemed of interest;

[spoiler]



no offense whatever is meant to those here who do not have English as their mother-tongue/heart-language/language-of-choice/etc.
If anything, it is mocking the "text-happy generation" in the US. Texting--especially on T9 phones--has ruined our spelling.



[/spoiler]
Posted June 21, 2019
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gogtrial34987: Anyway, it's late, and I'm going to leave my vote here for the night to see if anyone wants to join me, as I believe there to still be some merit to it.
Even though Trent stance on scene and GR today made my eyebrows almost fly off I'm still not sure if he just isn't being his normal self after all (gut reactions and all). Also, after I slept through it I realized there might be a good reason for him being so forgiving to such weird and, in my opinion, strictly anti-town behavior. I don't think I want to vote for him today.


As for GR I think the roleblocker claim is likely true but I continue to doubt the alignment. I just can't get past the way he played so far. I'm sorry but that's just anti-town in my book. I assume the infamous past games and would be brought up again and that it's a playstyle and whatnot but I just can't accept that a player would intentionally:

- decide to vote for the scummies (in their opinion) player's target instead going for the actual suspected scum; GR even says he used his power on scene because of suspicion and yet voted for his target!

- piggybacks by telling others "That's a good point, that makes me suspect that player more" every so often. In Joe's case GR actually complimented scene for making a good point and voted Joe for it and that particular point was absurd (I may be reading this badly though as the point is literally absurd);

- admits to skimming the active game rather than paying full attention to and the call out the people who are giving him heat for not wanting to read and ackowledge their own old games;

- endanger the alleged power role by acting as he did and eventually putting himself in WIFOM hell;

- referring to the old games as proof that it's his town play and getting defensive when this "proof" isn't accepted


I just refuse to accept that, sorry. I'm more inclined to believe it's just confused scum play.


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flubbucket: In Game #23 we masons became two confirmed townies, which shrank the pool of possible scum.
I remember that! It was my very first game here and it was glorious! You were the fist :D


@Micro - what happens if we give GR a pass and he survives the night?


@Pooka - you seem to be reacting mildly to GR, what is you stance on him? If believe he is who he says he is what are your actual reads and vote choices?


@Scene - Since GR started picking up heat you voted him and became very scarce after. What are you thoughts as of now?


Anyway, until something happens to change my mind I'm willing to vote for either GR or Scene (in that order).

Micro is on neutral ground so I would go with him if needed but I don't think we'll need to go there.

I don't feel like voting for flub or Trent unless I absolutely must.

Gogtrial, Joe, Pooka, Wyrm I don't want to vote at all Today.


vote GameRager
Posted June 21, 2019
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gogtrial34987:
HISTORICALLY!!!
Posted June 21, 2019
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Microfish_1: ............

>Not willing to lunch:
GR--yet--he's very interesting and curious, and I prefer to not yet vote, but see if he is NK'd.
.............
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flubbucket: And so much WIFOM if he's not Night Killed.
Yep.
If town, he's more likely to be more dangerous to mafia than a cop, though. Given our current situation, I'm very willing to take that chance for a night.

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supplementscene: @GOGTRIAL - Blotunga stated you misrepresented him and I've claimed the same about some of your posts. How do you feel about this after he flipped town?
I answered this in #528. You also asked other people a bunch of questions, which got answers.
Do you have any thoughts / conclusions as a result of that? Look beyond GR - what do you think of the total game state right now?

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Microfish_1: I've been reading, if not always following / comprehending / what-have-you, everything (I try, but not so hard that my head explodes...I did that in 57, and do not wish to again).
Please question things that you don't follow. It'll both allow you to apply some pressure and pick up on things that don't make sense (signs of mafia subtly trying to steer opinions?), or help town clarify their thinking, and will document that you're following along / what you're interested in, which will give the rest of us a better feel for you.

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Microfish_1: What do you think of Dedo? GR? Gogtrial? Pooka? Flub? Which of Scene, Joe, Book, and Trent do you suspect most (different from who you think is most lunchable today)?
dedo: Town. I don't see the off-ness that others have seen, then again, I've never been able to read dedo.
GR: Very, very anti-town explanations for moderately bad behaviour. Too much so for actual mafia with at least some experience. For the moment my conclusion is that he's thinking about the things he says from a town-mindset, thus doesn't see how scummy they will appear. If I hadn't done my SPF-analysis, though, I'd probably be voting him.
Gogtrial: Town. I've never been mafia yet, so even I have no idea how my play would differ. I'm going the extra mile when I can due to my performance in #55, to leave as much value for town if I end up exiting stage left.
Pooka: Town.
Flub: Impossible to get a solid read on, but I'm not liking how instrumental he was in the blotunga wagon and now in the GR wagon. Will probably vote for him if GR ends up lynched and flips town; flub is not usually that wrong.
Microfish: Town.

I suspect Book most, because he's otherwise just town to me, and I find him far too agreeable and right and lock-town, which must be a sign of scum!Book pocketing me.
I suspect Joe most, because he's made the least impression on the gamestate of everyone.
I suspect scene most, because of D1. And because his behaviour changed so much on D2.
I suspect trent most, because he's unwilling to vote for half the field, and his half is different than my half. (Although otherwise it'd be a town-sign.)

I have this habit of thinking around too many corners when I'm too involved. Need to take a step back and go for the simplest solution.
I think I actually have a conclusion and an actual most, but I want to observe and reread a little bit more.

real life is intruding now, though, so that'll be a couple of hours still.
Posted June 21, 2019
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dedoporno: ....

- decide to vote for the scummies (in their opinion) player's target instead going for the actual suspected scum; GR even says he used his power on scene because of suspicion and yet voted for his target!

....
What do you think about the point GameRager made? - 'why target scene who had claimed Vanilla Town?'

It's mitigated somewhat by GameRager pointing it out himself, but I'm still fairly taken with it.
Posted June 21, 2019
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JoeSapphire: What do you think about the point GameRager made? - 'why target scene who had claimed Vanilla Town?'
o wate.


Serial Killer. GameRager could have thought scene was serial killer lying about role...
Posted June 21, 2019
@Gamerager why did you strongly hint you had a role after 2 votes? Now you've claimed you are very likely to be the target on Night 2 but you were beforehand after you hinted. Why would you do that?

I even think it's a good Town move to actually not claim until L1 when you have an important role.

It makes me think you're desperate Mafia rather than Town making some very bad mistakes.

Also your analysis of me as your Scum suspect is the most shallow analysis in the game.

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supplementscene: Who did you roleblock Night 1 and why?

I realise I claimed at L2 like you are now but I was vanilla and little use to Town. If your role is true you've put yourself at risk for the subsequent night phases.
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GameRager: I role blocked you of course(I found your longwinded defensive posts to multiple people on the first game "day" to be a bit suspect so I picked you), and I was going to do so again but at this point I don't know if i'll even be around to do so.

And yes i've put myself at risk, but I don't want the game to lose such an important role and would rather save it this way and put myself at risk via scum focus/targetting than stay silent and get lynched(and cause my fellow town to lose that advantage).

Also if I do get lynched(I hope I don't for the reasons i've stated so far and because I like playing/reading/etc) I suggest the remaining town look closely at my wagon...especially after the reveal I just made.
If what you are saying is true, did I not look more Town to you after there there were 2 night kills? You supposedly know for a fact I didn't kill night 1. Not that there aren't 2 Mafia players who didn't kill anyway, but you know I wasn't the killer N1

Also you want to block me on night 2 despite supposedly knowing that. Does that make sense?

Who else would you block if I got lynched?
Posted June 21, 2019
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dedoporno: @Pooka - you seem to be reacting mildly to GR, what is you stance on him? If believe he is who he says he is what are your actual reads and vote choices?
I'm not actually. He is the highest person on my lynch list right now, which is...something, when you consider that he overtook supplementscene in that list. I am just not voting him yet, but later today or tomorrow, I will vote him unless he can miraculously turn around things. Because I don't think that's going to happen.

But if he is who he says he is, it just means we're back to scene and his odd play style. Also, before I forget, I must address this.

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GameRager: As for believing his claim: Say I did and I was scum, why would I roleblock a claimed vanilla town and not someone else?
If you were scum and scene isn't, the most likely scenario in my opinion would be that you use your power on someone else, but claim you used it on scene. This way, you setup scene to look bad, play it safe by claiming you role blocked a vanilla townie, and also advance mafia interests by roleblocking a likely power role. I just have a hard time being convinced that you're indeed honest about what you're saying, as the actions accompanied are...strange to say the least.

Now for my reads on all players and stuff! In no particular order:

- gogtrial: I agree with what Micro said earlier about him. He gives me HSL vibes, which if I learned anything from, playing like scum HSL is a recipe for disaster for town. Fortunately he isn't 100% HSL. I feel his questions aren't "traps" that he can use later for his advantage. For that, I admire him the most out of the people here.
- scene: Possible scum. His D1 started strangely and ended the RVS votes quick, getting us to meaningful discussions about him. Some think his strange style is Town play. I think it is scum play to be honest, but the worst thing? He plays strangely as town and as scum. I wouldn't be surprised if that's his non-AI strategy, much like the one blotunga was going for.
- Trent: Feeling iffy about him. He's half consistent with what I've seen him in the two previous games, being on the leading wagon if no other good choices present themselves, but he doesn't seem consistent about going for the scummiest person. He's currently on flub, but I vaguelly recall him going for someone else before hand.
- dedoporno: Neutral to me. Brought me up and gogtrial during a conversation with bookwyrm with reasons that I still cannot comprehend, but when I compare his D1 beginning in Captain Sapphire to here, I have better feelings about him.
- Microfish: I am neutral on him. Was floating for most of D1, but seems to have more of a presence D2. Not enough to tell me if he's decent enough or not.
- Joe and Flub: Don't seem to have decent reads on the both of them. Joe is hard to describe. I can't really pin him down. Oh wait, I figured it out, in SH, most of his play I've seen was when he was smeared by a fascist Lifthrasil, in the Captain Sapphire game he was the mod, and the trent...Disney game, he killed me first thing (which ironically let me not read him later as I wasn't invested in that game). As for flub, he posts little to go by from.
- Bookwyrm: He's certainly bloodthirsty. While I believe in that mislynches are inevitable, he embraces them. He leans town to me, but I'm afraid of what scummy Wyrm play is like.
- GameRager: Top of my lynch list. His strange play especially voting a player on the pretense that another player - who he believes to be scummy - thinks they are scum. The roleblocker claim and the fact they claimed to have role blocked scene, who claimed vanilla town, does look very suspect.

Yes, it is 1PM and I need to sleep now. Don't be like me!
Posted June 21, 2019
Vote Count

(When you see a vote count please quickly make sure your vote is against the correct player. Let me know if it's not)

GameRager 4 - scene, flub, Bookwyrm, dedoporno
scene 2 - Micro, GameRager
flub 2 - trent, JoeSapphire
trent 1 - gogtrial

Everyone else - 0
Not voting: Pooka

10 players left. It takes 6 to lynch.
GameRager is closest at L-2
Posted June 21, 2019
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supplementscene: @GOGTRIAL - Blotunga stated you misrepresented him and I've claimed the same about some of your posts. How do you feel about this after he flipped town?
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gogtrial34987: I don't recall the words "misrepresent" being applied to any of my posts, offhand, nor alternative with the same meaning. Do you have specific pointers to the posts from either of you to refresh my memory?
I know I have accused both you and him of misrepresenting my words (mostly you, but him in #371). Here's thread searches for misrepresents and misrepresenting.

Blotunga asked me why I questioned him and brought focus to him. I did this because his catch up post after a long absence felt all sorts of wrong to me. It still does. He made it clear his play was deliberate. I thought - and think - that it wasn't in town's best interests. That it came from a town player doesn't change anything about it.
As for your case on me: As far as I can tell, it consists of me having the audacity to suspect you, me being the third to vote you due to being a few minutes slower than scum agentcarr in writing a post, and then a whole lot of you not understanding what I wrote and thus interpreting it in a way that makes you think that it makes me look bad, right? I still think most of that is extremely frustrating, and could come from either town or scum you. My reasons for voting you are mostly for reasons beyond that (for lack of better alternative, you deserve lynching regardless of alignment due to anti-town play - you're also suspicious for not having done the early game things that town-you did in the two games where you were town, and you're now newly suspicious for SPF's behaviour toward you (though of course SPF might've expected you to be lynched, and thus wanted to claim town-points for having defended you; isn't WIFOM just the best?)).

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supplementscene: I then ask him his opinion of Blotunga. He initially misses this. I ask him again and he replies. He's clearly not reading everything, something Mafia feel they don't need to because they know everything
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gogtrial34987: Okay, there's no way you're not doing this deliberately!

(More posts like this one from you though, please? I like you much better this way. Although it also reminds me of the strong start you had as mafia in #57.)

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GameRager: I'm damned(in everyone's eyes) if I do and damned if I don't, basically. If I started the wagon on scene and he turns out to be town I will have made myself look suspect, and if I don't when I find him suspect then I also look suspect.
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gogtrial34987: As the votes you gathered should tell you, this is anti-town behaviour. Far more so than:
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blotunga: I'm trying to play in a way regardless of alignment that my playstile can't be nailed down as AI. I will do this in the future too, even if it gets me lynched this time
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gogtrial34987: Could we have two relatively new town players making that mistake two days in a row??!
I'm going to have to re-evaluate how much trust I'm willing to put in my earlier "SPF didn't talk to you at all, thus you're town" call.

Speaking of
@all: I'd really like some feedback on that line of thinking:
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gogtrial34987: I think SPF is too good a player to completely avoid interacting with fellow mafia on D1. That means that Microfish, PookaMustard, GameRager are very likely town in my book. (But of course WIFOM.)
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gogtrial34987: It's one of the few solid data points we have. Can you think of counter-arguments, examples of SPF behaving or not behaving this way as scum (anyone know offhand which games he was scum in), or anything else like that? Just like having three masons reveal themselves would be really strong, clearing three town players this way (no matter how prone to newbie mistakes they might be) would be a great boon.

Also, I think I spotted where GameRager's thinking came from:
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GameRager: Killing active players may provide clues, but we don't want to lose many town as it would hurt us in the end if we kept doing so.
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gogtrial34987: Everyone who now wants to suspect a gogtrial-gamerager scum team, please form a line on the left, take a number and wait your turn.

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Microfish_1: GOGtrial--IF scene is innocent, I strongly think GOGtrial reeks (maybe he only needs a shower?)
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gogtrial34987: Walk me through your thinking there?
I'll freely admit I deliberately went after scene right from the start. I know him to be a chaos risk, and I wanted to sort him while we could still afford it, and get some things moving instead of letting scum hide in RVS. Would scum-me risk that on town-scene? (People might remember I deliberately haunted scene on D1 in #55 as well, but then I *knew* right from the start that he was scum, as I was even scummier. This time I'd be regular scum without the knowledge that scene would be town (or a very tiny chance of being SK))

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Microfish_1: Gog's push for M!SPF to move to T!blot looks...weird.
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gogtrial34987: Please read that again. SPF already was on blotunga's wagon, which was at L-1. I was looking at who was active at that very moment. Of those people, trent and me were still on scene's wagon, and could hammer blotunga right away, OR three players (out of Joe, bookwyrm, spf and flub) would need to move from blotunga to scene.

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supplementscene: So this is confirmation of what I asked earlier, that you only skimread the thread.

This is very bad townplay because if you are town you can't get true reads of anyone.

BUT Mafia players skimread because they don't need to work out who's who - they already know
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gogtrial34987: So, so, so deliberate.
On re-read he used the word 'twists' his words. I'm not entirely sure you did twist his words that much though. It was a lingering memory after I felt you twisted my words

Do you genuinely think if I was Scum SPF would have defended me knowing that if I got lynched, as I looked quite likely to he may look suspect? Is it not more likely he'd be looking to carry favour with a Town, by 'buddying'?

And what is deliberate, me asking if a player skimreads and finding it indictive of not being Town? Well sorry but that's how I see it. I know I didn't bother trying to sus much out last game myself.

Anyway you asked my read of the game as a whole.

Currently we have 3 strong wagons. When the wagons were just Scene and GR the votes were 3-2 - at this stage Trent and Joe build a wagon on Flub. Dedo re-votes GR after Joe votes for him

So I ask why? Will the Flub wagon get traction? I find it unlikely. I find Flub a good lynch with no other info because he's impossible to read, so is good to get rid of early in case he's Mafia

So where are the Mafia? On wagons or not voting?

Gamerager could be Scum and looks very scummy BUT SPF didn't talk to him Day 1, I make it a point to be quite aggessive to Mafia players myself and it's a common tactic. SPF might have not talked to Scum though.

Are Mafia trying to avoid being on a successful Town wagon for 2 days straight?

If on wagons - where?

Maybe on a wagon that won't take off. So Flub perhaps, 1 of Trent or Joe could be Mafia

And Joe was SPFs vote for most of Day 1, why? Because Joe is mafia or because Joe is SPFs real life friend? And like you say Joe has shown no analysis in this game and played it very safe.

VOTES JOE
Posted June 21, 2019
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supplementscene: VOTES JOE
This appeared as part of a quote, but I'm counting it.
Posted June 21, 2019
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supplementscene: VOTES JOE
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ZFR: This appeared as part of a quote, but I'm counting it.
Yes, I somehow managed to put my whole post in the quote. I could edit it to re-format if given a pass......I mean it's actually hard to read
Posted June 21, 2019
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ZFR: This appeared as part of a quote, but I'm counting it.
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supplementscene: Yes, I somehow managed to put my whole post in the quote. I could edit it to re-format if given a pass......I mean it's actually hard to read
Go ahead. I've taken a screenshot. Please don't edit any content.
Posted June 21, 2019
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JoeSapphire: SirP and GameRager have been on a mafia team together. As it's been described to me GameRager invented a role and self-destructed for no reason... it's a reason for sirp to be wary about interacting with hypothetically-mafia gamerager.
That's just lovely. (To help anyone else intending to look into this: the good bits start at #350, and eyeball == SPF)

I also find myself agreeing and nodding along with scene's latest.
All the world's gone crazy. Mafia and townies living as one. Mass hysteria!

vote scene

Why? Because I see a massive difference between D1-scene and D2-scene. I wouldn't expect that difference from town-scene.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionGOG Mafia #59 - Previously on Mafia...(1130 posts)(1130 posts)
(1130 posts)