hi I've found some internet, and I have some time. I'm catching up, and will be with you soon.

sorry about this.

So your reason to put me to L-1 will be mostly to avoid no-lynch? And presumably because think HSL is less scummy than me, because why else pick mine over his wagon.
So tell me what do you think on HSLs play so far? His interaction with scene and with SPf (whom you put town)?

Also I do get where you are coming from with Ix but then, wouldn't the same logic apply to Joe at least in parts?
Also do you think different about scenes ability to play scum (which includes distancing), after realizing that he was able to pull off that "bold and near-perfect last minute play" after all, that you didn't think possible End of D1?

Last question: When you put me at L-1 and then someone has hammered me after a bit of back and forth (maybe bookwyrm can even fulfill his dream somehow and hammer ;) anyway when you have my town flip. Who do you suspect then? Who's going up or down in your scumlist? What information do you gain by my townflip? Does that make HSL more scummy (he said I was off the table for him)? Does it make trent scummy? Or bookwyrm? Who do I rectify? (as flub put it) Who do you scumread after having my townflip, think on it and please tell me before lynching me. I'll be interested and I do hope that you'll be held by what you say now tomorrow, when everyone has seen the flip. Or do you in fact just want to mis-lynch?

Hello! I have a cold right now and my brain has started running out of my ears. I still think HSL is a better lynch but as mchack is my second place candidate I have no problem with changing my vote tomorrow especially to avoid a nolynch.

Yeah well, I'm not going to apologise for not staying up all night to do a reread in case people decide to take the weekend off when the deadline, even if only a tentative one, was set a few days ago, and most seemed ok or not bothered by it.

Not sure I follow what exactly your interest in my vote specifically is; you think I'm mafia, so however I vote, you'll take it as a bad one. Since you think I'm mafia, shouldn't you be rallying people to vote me? There are at least two votes on your wagon that would easily jump on mine, and getting the other two should be doable as nobody has made a stance against voting me.
Or are you concerned I'll end up voting you? It goes without saying that I'll self-preserve on you, should it come down to that, but I won't vote you if I don't absolutely have to as I still don't scum-read you. Now, if you've upped your scum game by that much, I'll tip my hat to you post game.


Rest assured, there's more coming your way should I be Today's lynch.


No, I don't mean scum slipping up, certainly not in the way you seem to mean and look for it; another difference between you and me. I've said it before, the devil's in the details; wording, context, timing and tone are factors to evaluate motivation and mindset.

Take for example JoeSapphire. Another one's Bookwyrm627. I'd say ISO them to see all the things, some little, some subtle, but I'm not sure that'll bring anything, if for no other reason than it's a suggestion from someone you're scum-reading. More on these two later.


You know, I expected this question from you. From Bookwyrm627? No, he's too smart, and has demonstrated both that and thinking in ways and directions, not to mention his ability to plan and plot, that him needing an explanation just makes me go "No".

Flips is not the only kind of Information mafia gets. Mafia knows who isn't in their ranks, don't overlook/underestimate this. That alone gives them the advantage to evaluate the in-thread happenings in a conclusive manner, and strategise and plan accordingly. Town's trying to figure things out, and that requires more extensive discussion. When the Day's cut short, town's left with very little to possibly nothing to work with additionally to what they already had a Day before. Assume for a moment that the exchange between SirPrimalform and myself is v/v. Look at how that became quite the focus point, and the conclusions drawn from it, then tell me if it comes as a surprise we're both alive Today.

Yes, we get the flip, but that's often not particularly telling by itself when trying to connect the dots, and tell apart the town from those blending in well; dedoporno comes to mind.
Take for example Lifthrasil's flip (and try for a moment to let go of your fixation that I had figured out he was the Cop). Then go back and look what he left us in-thread, and who was voting him D1/D2, and see if you can, even remotely safely, draw any connections and conclusions. I'll go as far as saying that Lifthrasil flipping Cop was more of a bonus for the mafiosi; with a possible Godfather and investigation-immune SK in play, even he himself couldn't rely on his results, at least in early game, and scum would definitely take advantage of that, and rather easily shed doubt on his reads and cause a mis-lynch.


I'd like to think that you're asking this to try and find a condemning connection between my answer and what I did and didn't do. In which case you're out of luck, nothing springs to mind. If, however, that's not what you're doing, then my reaction is:

*shakes head*

Seriously?


I'm pretty sure that I never led on that I'm fence sitting, quite the contrary, and you and SirPrimalform, have been arguing for two Days now, that the lack of fence sitting is a strong point contemning me as supplementscene's buddy. Now you're claiming that sum!JoeSapphire was the single one of all the people present at the time that saw town!HypersomniacLiveI fence sitting so wouldn't risk it, because otherwise your theory of supplemenscene, JoeSapphire and me being the mafia team doesn't hold.

You can't have it both ways - either the lack of me fence sitting was obvious, thus scum!JoeSapphire could pretty safely challenge me to hammer, or I was fence sitting in which case you have to provide the related evidence to support that and your theory that it was a calculated, safe jab between scum-buddies.


*sigh*

And missing the point, and the big picture, again, if you actually did read my post in full. This is the last time I'm going to try and explain it to you as plainly as I can, and I'll start with a couple of very basic Q&A:

1. Did D1 comprise solely of those 40 minutes of your timeline? Oh look, it doesn't.
2. Was supplementscene getting heat only during that time-frame? Oh look, he wasn't, in fact it was most of D1.
3. Were people against lynching him over the course of the Day, and up to the moment he claimed? Oh look, just about everyone was on board with his lynch; in fact, the only one openly against it was you (see how easy it can be?).
4. Did I anywhere speak of a certain D1 Lynch after he claimed? Oh look, I didn't, I actually went ahead with SirPrimalform's argument, and yours; it's right at the beginning of my reply to him in post #648. And if that didn't clue you in, I clearly spoke of him being the certain D2 Lynch a bit further down.
5. Was anyone budging before dedoporno unvoted him? Oh look, no, in fact flubbucket put him at L-1, which was the triggering fact for supplementscene to do a full claim.

So, are my initial assumptions still wrong? Are they the ones you're sure you debunked?

The bigger picture isn't what you understood it to be, that's just an element of it. The bigger picture is that mafia have a certain win condition to fulfil, and play to that win condition; game doesn't start and end at D1. So, assuming that everything about my late D1 is as clear cut as you say, and I'm supplementscene's buddy, what is my long-term motivation and plan behind my D1 actions (with the outcome I described being a reasonably safe one), in regards to fulfilling my win condition? Why and how do those actions of mine advance my mafia win condition? Can you answer these questions?

If I were scum-reading you, I'd have to say that you're misrepresenting my argument, while dodging the key-question to the bigger picture because you don't actually have counterarguments, nor are able to answer my question without contradicting yourself.

On a side, but related, note - look who came to your aid, adding/emphasising on your good arguments against mine, and talking about a D1 wasted town lynch. As if town lynches are always, no exceptions ever, on scum. Or that a missed D1 lynch is always detrimental to town, even when hitting scum on the very next one. But surely Bookwyrm627 couldn't possibly know that. So mchack, make sure to give him a few more of your town points.

I wish you a swift recovery and I agree, HSL is the better lynch as there we can at least hope to lynch scum.

Your unbiased opinion is noted! :P

Is this the only thing making you vote him? Or was there anything else in his ISO that makes you scum-read him?



Weren't you the one that scum-read mchack's out_of_the_gate vote? Why do you think that yours should be town-read?

Had this been the D1 Lynch, you could perhaps make that claim. But on D2 where only supplementscene didn't say he's on board with his lynch? No.


And I'm pretty certain that you haven't (I'm still waiting for you to explain that RB statement you made), but your reply inclines me to think that you won't attempt to cross check that Today. Or will you?

Do you think that gogtrial34987 thought his question about your playstyle was silly but asked it anyway? And do you think that ignoring him sent the message that you thought it a silly question?


This sounds like you think the pushes are unjustified. If so, why? Just because of that immediate vote you tossed on supplementscene? Something else you did, and I've missed?


Additionally to what trentonlf said (post #656), do you think that a quick last moment lynch-wagon on that someone else will be harder than on you? If so, why?



Heh... no, that's not quite true, and a quick ISO of me supports it, but can't put me in the light you want if you did that, I guess. On a side, but related note, I wasn't aware that there's a handbook you guys consult that specifies the quota of questions I must meet before making a comment, or the game Day onwards I'm allowed to make comments, or the number of exchanges on something before moving forward/on, and probably a few other rules and specifications I should never ever deviate from lest it'd be seen from odd or out of character to scummy.


First off, I didn't start pushing on SirPrimalform, and he pushed back; I poked him, and he immediately went into OMGUS mode, which only intensified as our exchange progressed. I guess the appropriate (re)action from my side would have been to ask him why he was saying this and that, and being mean to me, and if he'd prefer I let him go back to his slumber; please forgive me, it was a grave mistake on my part, and I shall do my best it remains an isolated incident.

So, nice try. As for the rest - very enlightening, thank you.


Heh.


*looks at Bookwyrm627's previous comment*

Yeah... heh.

Home.

Joe says: (Interpolated) "I am mafia and I keep making stuff about Vítek until he grews tired of it and snaps."

OK, I will oblige. Vote JoeSapphire.

When?

no need to. I totally understand that part and I for one think, I use up way too much of my time for this game anyway. It is mostly fun, but when it turns out to feel like work and becomes stressful and detrimental to social life, then I should remember that it's just a game. [Doesn't matter anyway who wins or looses in the end, as the next game will start a few days later anyway and the cards are mixed again. Just saying: don't take it too seriously and if it felt like I was demanding more work from you, then I'm sorry, that wasn't how it was meant.] I'm mostly just interested who you scumread and why.

Every vote is special and beautiful to me :P nah, it's data points that become interesting after your flip with either alignment. Look at vitek for example townreading Ixam only because of the interaction + vote he (/dessimu) had with scene. So it is interesting to me how you vote and whom you scumread even if you are scum yourself. sure it's wifom, but it is data. data that might become useful.

I'm interested in what you have to say on book and Joe. But book is off the table for me. He may be SK or something but definitely not scene's buddy. I won't believe it.
But Joe is someone that vitek and yourself seem to be able to agree on. Interesting. I might agree on voting Joe to save myself. He's my least "townie" of my town-leans.

HEY! I have feelings you know. ;)

*scratches head* Soo you think if it were Town vs. Mafia (which is what I'm actually thinking) then the town in that interaction (ie SPf) should've ate the nk? wifom?

But something else on that matter. If I remember correctly you mused about what scum did or would do or would consider at night before in this thread (too lazy to search now, but I remember you saying that scene would've been primed by his scum team on what to do D2 at night), but let me ask you this:
Do you think that a scum team comprised of say scene and me and ixam would make vastly different decisions than say a scum team comprised of scene and you and vitek?
I don't think you can make assertions on how scum thinks or how they'd plan at night and what they'd consider if you don't know the mafia prowess of the scum team. I have taken some pretty bad decissions as scum before, I'm sure.

ok: lift was voted D1 by: vitek (inherited from poppy), mchack, scene | D2 by: scene (the conclusion being scene was scum ;P and mchack probably not because scum probably wouldn't align their vote so much (first lift, then SPf)
don't really wanna do a re-read of lift right now. Why don't you simply tell me what I should see?

Here and above though: what you've written is all too cryptic for me. (I guess I see where the not smart comment came from...)

I was just trying to find out, if you even remember one instance of scum bussing on D1. Doesn't seem like you do. It seems it's not a very common thing to happen at all, really. (not that I checked. I didn't. But maybe someone else remembers their favourite scum bus on D1?)

ok. no fence sitting. You were outspoken against Scene's Lynch D1 because you tended to believe the claim and thusly the jab from Joe wasn't in much danger of bringing you to hammer scene. So Joe could be (ballsy) scum there. (of course it is just as possible that you and Joe were scum together with scene. nothing in this makes that impossible)

You say he was the certain D2 lynch. But I disagree. Ask bookwyrm, he'd have let him self-resolve if he hadn't lied about some warning from the mod.

The Decision on whether to be better on or off the scene wagon after the claim on D1 is what I am looking at.
And I disagree that at that time when scum!you decides if you should bus scene, you could've have known if he was the certain D2 Lynch. You couldn't have known it N1 either. D2 could've swung both ways really. (People even started defending scenes logic about his not wanting to disclose who he "protected")
Also we can't know how the day would've went if I weren't tunneling so hard on scene, right from the start. But I think it might've gone quite different and maybe scene would have survived D2 aswell. Obviously noone could've known D1 or N1 that I would do a hard 180 on scene. scum couldn't have known what would happen D2. It didn't look too bad for scene I would say.

So I don't let this count as a defense of yourself, that all that happened on D2 was a given and any scum would've known this on D1 and would've been on that wagon of scene.


win condition. everyone does their best to reach it. But mistakes are made. I as townie have mis-lynched because I tunneled on the wrong people, despite my win condition clearly states I should lynch scum and as scum I have made mistakes aswell. Like last game I was on that SPf wagon, which I shouldn't have, because it ticked of the cop trent, who investigated me and outed me D2. It wasn't playing by my win-condition in retrospect to put my vote there and I wouldn't have done it if I had known what would happen D2, but everyone's smarter in retrospect. Mistakes are made and I think you made one. You should've hammered scene but didn't.

Yep- Sorry to say that but HSL is more convincing than you are.
You give me too much of "you'll regret my lynch", the same way scene was.

And while I find positive that you seem to be willing to re-evaluate your reads it is also true you were the first to try to shift D1 lynch to SPF and that D2 opening post seemed too quick and too prepared to be really genuine.

Not really.
Scene mentioned Dess several times, voted him and scene's posts about Dess read to me as genuine attempt to lynch him.
On the other hand, scene's "suspicion" of Joe felt less sicnere and while he mentioned him, I feel like he never really pursued him.

Not really again.
While I was surprised he faked the PM the way he did, he was also suspect enough to get tehre at the first place, doomed himself with that claim when he wasn't modkilled and then managed to do nothing at all to discourage his imminent lynch.

1. It is not one question.
2. We'll cross that bridge if we get there, because it is too speculative and present yourself as town.

I have no emotions you could appeal to. ;-)

Don't follow, could you elaborate?


And yet somehow you think Vitek is the better D3 Lynch? I'd like you to lay it out very clearly.


mchack is at L-2, you seem a tad too eager/anxious to get him to L-1. Why?


You're happy to lynch trentonlf because he didn't lynch D1? Was he the only one? In the same token, you should be happy to lynch me as well, yet you keep on and on how you're not sure about me, and not keane to vote me right now. So, what makes you (more?) certain about trentonlf that you'd be happy to lynch him for the reason you give here?

Also, gogtrial34987 seems absolutely fine, yet you're happy to lynch him because it (or should I say he?) makes you nervous? Do you think that that's sufficient reason to want his lynch Today, if so, why? And are you happy enough to lynch him over others? If so, why?

This was two days ago, in today's post there's no mention of them. Did something change for you, and if so, what?


JoeSapphire is another player I thought has a playstyle that works as either alignment, and in his case he'd have to adjust even less things than supplementscene. But it seems that being on the knowing side interferes with the flow of his play.

I've noticed that he isn't doing his read-lists thing with the frequency and dedication he did in game #53 (Vitek did too), but on top of that there's a lot of flip-flopping and wishy-washing while resorting a lot to "interpolating", when he was sticking to what had been posted to present whatever reads and conclusions he had in that game. In which he also had a lot less trouble remembering things about others and what they had said.
It all feels forced this game, as does his goofing around, though it seems to still provide him with enough cover.

Then there's his questioning with no follow up, which reads to me more like it's there so he looks to be game solvy than actually trying to game solve.

Past scum games of his also support the above two.

I still think his allegedly joky jab at me at end of D1 was calculated and loaded.

And it looked like he tried to come up with something in #453 about trentonlf; reads like the first push for an scum!trentonlf read, combined with an attempt to test the waters regarding trentonlf's lynchability. And now that it has come down to who we want to lynch Today, he's happy to lynch trentonlf for not lynching D1. The progression of his scum-read on trentonlf doesn't read as genuine.

Another thing is that he hasn't directly addressed Bookwyrm627 in a meaningful way; the most was a question he asked Bookwyrm627 in post #540 which went unanswered by the latter, and JoeSapphire didn't care to ask again; one more act of "game solving" for show. He not only didn't notice that Bookwyrm627 was pushing Vitek to vote while not voting himself but it also didn't bother him, while Lifthrasil prompting Vitek in post #201 was noteworthy enough to comment on it. The rest of his mentions and comments on Bookwyrm627 read of the "look, I'm absolutely not keeping the greatest possible distance" variety, and his repeated "oh, I forgot about Bookwyrm627" thing from game #53 feels as forced as the rest I mentioned.
Similarly, Bookwyrm627 addressed JoeSapphire exactly three times (posts #216, #242 and #552), and out of those only the last one could perhaps qualify; if JoeSapphire actually replied to that, it must have been to Bookwyrm627's absolute satisfaction, as not only was there no follow up, but no other mention of JoeSapphire again.

There are a few other things about Bookwyrm627, but I have to go now, so they'll have to wait for later.

Haven't refreshed since I started working on this post, but for now I'm good to:

Vote JoeSapphire


Bookwyrm627 is also on the menu, and as I said already, I'll self-preserve on mchack if need be.

When I was doing my ISO of mchack I got a similar vibe to him from Day 1 and 2 that I got from him from last game, although today he has started to give me a different vibe but I can't shake the feeling I get when reading over the first two Days.

I know mchack can't be held to what Hunter said in the three posts he made, but the statement he made to Dedo "Nice to see you playing dedo-senpai, I'll do my best and make you proud. :)" seemed odd, although I think he's made a similar statement before in another game but I can't remember for sure.

Also from Day 1 when mchack was pushing for Lift and if they flipped town he wanted to lynch Poppy/Vitek. That stopped as soon as Vitek pointed out that chain lynching is bad and why.

I also still don't like his vote based on PM information that at the time he had no way of knowing if it was actually true or not.

hm. True. Unlike his, you will regret my lynch, though :P (but then again you didn't vote either of us yet and who knows if you haven't in fact regreted scenes lynch :P..)
(But then again again, you'll probably say something like: heh. it was his own fault to be suspect enough to get there in the first place.
*shrug* in the end it doesn't matter that much. Town actually isn't in a bad shape, it can bear the odd mislynch.)

Vitek, How do you react when you are the mislynch for the day? stoic and emotionless, I presume?

well, it was genuine nonetheless. I thought hard about what had happened end of D1, but I have not pre-written any of that post. How stupid would it be to do the work only to see myself as the nk flip in the morning. delete all and replace with bah. nope, that will not happen to me.

ok, I'll help you there. Maybe we can make Joe talk:

vote JoeSaphire

(oh dear, have I made you look bad now? It does look quite a bit like what you are scumreading me for. You started a wagon and then the highest suspect of the day jumped on that same wagon. hmm. two days from now you could be lynched for it. oh wait no, because unlike scene I won't flip scum, so then it's all a-ok suppose. carry on)

I'll hold you to it. You may prepare the post right now and the moment I get hammered you quickly post it. genuinely. (No speculation involved in me being town. You won't do the work for naught. Think on it, who do I clear or damn for you in flipping town.)

heh.....................................................................^ what's this then?

---

Let's make an D1 SPf last minute train reenactment with changed seats. :P

on a more serious note: Vitek, what are your thoughts on bookwyrm?
HSL: Do you really seriously consider a Joe + bookwyrm + scene scumteam? That would've been simply evil towards the poor scene. With friends like this... *shakes head sadly*