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General discussionGOG Mafia #55 - Trouble at Arstotzkan Boot Camp(1211 posts)(1211 posts)
(1211 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted October 12, 2018
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Bookwyrm627: -I finished off Scene myself (before the deadline), instead of making Town do it.
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Vitek: I see.
*snort* I knew someone was going to jump on that. Feel free to try and reword that part of the sentence to remove the implication that the writer is scum, without removing the reasoning behind what a scum version of the writer would do.
Posted October 12, 2018
Yeah, I was the one to mention claim.
I first meant just of the remaing role that should be there and Joe took it as mass claim and I ran with it.
I both want and don't want it.

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Bookwyrm627: Also, same question to you, Vitek.
-Scene wanted to lynch my spot at first on D1 and tried to chain-lynch me with Lift.

- trent buddied to me a lot

- I am trying to solve the game

- I failed miserably many times and nobody as bad as me can be mafia

- I am too handsome to be mafia

and many many more
Posted October 12, 2018
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Vitek: - I am too handsome to be mafia
I'm sold.
Posted October 12, 2018
Vote count

HSL - 1: Bookwyrm

Not voting - 5: gogtrial, HSL, Joe, SPF, Vitek

6 players. 4 to lynch.
Posted October 12, 2018
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Bookwyrm627: *snort* I knew someone was going to jump on that. Feel free to try and reword that part of the sentence to remove the implication that the writer is scum, without removing the reasoning behind what a scum version of the writer would do.
If it was worded properly, how does it make one not mafia.

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Bookwyrm627: I'm genuinely curious: which of my posts do you read as possibly coaching Scene? I told him to read the manual several times, and I pointed out how one of his scenarios was almost certainly wrong (or straight up mechanically wrong).
Yeah mostly that part where you told him he should pay better attention and learn rules.


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HypersomniacLive: 1. Any conclusions?

2. Am I to assume that you won't share what you've thought? If so, why not?

3. Did you read my thoughts on this? What do you think?

4. Elaborate?

5. There's not much wiggle room for false-claims at this point in the game, is there?

6. This is like the second time you can't find what makes you read someone in one way or the other, third if I count your very early read on JoeSapphire.
1. That I don't like SPF starting with it and you continuing it.
2. One was mentioned and the other is related to be but I never had need to really discuss NK reasons much (with exception of checking reds of NK'ed) and I don't feel it again.
3. I find it inplausible option and am not much interested in it.
4. 2 townies vs 1 townie
5. Yes, more the reason why I would like to see it.
6. Yes. (I don't remember that Joe thing, though)
Posted October 12, 2018
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Vitek: If it was worded properly, how does it make one not mafia.
You wanted reasons I'm not mafia. The first part of that line ("I finished off Scene myself (before the deadline)") indicates what I actually did while the second part contrasts what mafia!me would have done instead ("making Town do it").

If you want a rewording, then how about this:
"If I were mafia, I wouldn't have finished off Scene so early in the Day, nor would I have needed to finish him off at all. I could instead express interest in lynching him but make a townie do it, since there were an apparent glut of people who were willing. After all, maybe we'd get really lucky (or town would get really stupid) and time would run out, or maybe he'd actually talk his way out of it for another Day.

I capped him with plenty of time before deadline, which I offer as part of the evidence that I'm not mafia."


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Bookwyrm627: I'm genuinely curious: which of my posts do you read as possibly coaching Scene? I told him to read the manual several times, and I pointed out how one of his scenarios was almost certainly wrong (or straight up mechanically wrong).
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Vitek: Yeah mostly that part where you told him he should pay better attention and learn rules.
If you're going to call that coaching and somehow different from Lift's version of RTFM, then I guess we're down to definitional differences.
Posted October 12, 2018
Phew. Sorry I haven't been back to the thread since my start of day post, I've been pretty busy with work catching up after my illness.
As I've been typing all evening I'm mostly just going to reply to things that I can see that are directly addresssed to me.

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HypersomniacLive: I could see that work if we were in the 6T scenario, but we're definitely in a scenario with three mafiosi, which means that the mafia-aligned Sibling had two ways (I can think of) to play his: either reveal his extra role to his mafia-buddies from the beginning while playing them (or both sides, to keep his options open?), or keep it secret, but once the claim was out he'd have been confronted by his teammate, hence would have managed to convince him that he's playing his Town-Sibling while either playing his teammate or both, until it becomes clear where victory's to be had. I could see this quite easily if Bookwyrm627 was the mafia-aligned Sibling, but with the Siblings being gogtrial34987+JoeSapphire? Perhaps I'm underestimating them both, but I don't see it. Do you? Does anyone else?
Why do you think it's unlikely for Joegtrial but plausible for bookwyrm?

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gogtrial34987: What are the thoughts from the both of you about trent+Vitek being possible as buddying mafia buddies?
It's possible, but I still kind of feel like Vitek is more likely SK (or vig I guess unless that's been ruled out).

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Bookwyrm627: Any reason to suspect this is actually the case?

Any reason to suspect there are actually 4 mafia?
No and no. The first one was a genuine worry but the second one was just a joke. The first occurred to me while I was processing the fact that the bros were still alive. My first thought was "Well, with trent's flip they're basically confirmed town because there's no way they're both scum!" followed by a sneaking thought "Actually, do lovers/brothers have to be the same alignment" and a trip to the wiki.

Basically I was ready to treat them as confirmed but now I'm not so sure.

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Vitek: Question to HSL, Bookwyrm and I guess SPF as well:

Can you provide a reason why are you not mafia?
Uhh... well no concrete hard evidence I'm afraid. The only thing I can point to is scene attempting to redirect the lynch towards me as well as the fact that I put my vote on scene's wagon when I knew I wouldn't be around for the deadline.
It's all WIFOM really.
Posted October 12, 2018
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JoeSapphire: [...] it was a surprising leap in logic. [...]
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HypersomniacLive: Don't follow where the leap in logic is. I put down my full thought process in post #1006; it starts at about the middle of it with "So, trentonlf's playing to his post #877: " onwards.

As for predicting trentonlf's alignment, I said why I'm confident he's mafia in my posts #1006 and #1015. I was asleep when trentonlf made his post #1018, else I'd have replied to him with what I did today, as that's also a typical caught scum!trentonlf post, both content and tone wise. I had signs that he could be (post #978), but wasn't sure until I saw his reaction to gogtrial34987's arguments and vote.

So no, no prediction and leaps in logic, just putting all the pieces together, and seeing to which side the whole picture points. That's, of course, my reading, but I reference posts so that others can see for themselves if things read the same. If not, I expect people to say so, but also why they don't.

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JoeSapphire: [...] I remember him mentioning a few times that he's expecting us to be dead tomorrow... [...]
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HypersomniacLive: Since you remember me mentioning it a few times, could you point out those few times I did? Preferably with post numbers?
hmm... yes I forgot about trent's "You'll all regret it! I'll be laughing from my grave! Laughing!!" [interpolated]. Hmm... maybe if you were mafia I'd expect you to be more cautious about predicting trent's flip. But I dunno.

For you, I include post numbers.
#1004 you said " as I don't think you'll be around Tomorrow." to gogtrial.
#925 you said, also to gogtrial "Any ideas on why you'd be still alive Tomorrow? "

(Alright, I can't take credit for this: gogtrial found these two references for me. But it's what I was thinking about, and I might well have found them myself. You guys should get yourself a day chat with gogtrial it's great.)


I was wondering if vitek was going to call for another mass claim now that the roleblocker's dead, but it turns out he never wanted one in the first place (he only wanted the person with the power role to claim? Surely mass claim would be much more sensible? Unless it was a humorous joke and I took it at face value, and now look like a fool?) If there is going to be a mass claim, it's now or never really, but maybe you guys all hate having fun.

bookwyrm wants to lynch hypersomnia, hypersomnia wants to lynch bookwyrm, no-one's interested in sirp. Vitek's oddly convincing. I'm quite distracted right now.
Mafia brain `~`
Posted October 12, 2018
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SirPrimalform: My first thought was "Well, with trent's flip they're basically confirmed town because there's no way they're both scum!" followed by a sneaking thought "Actually, do lovers/brothers have to be the same alignment" and a trip to the wiki.

Basically I was ready to treat them as confirmed but now I'm not so sure.
-.-

Would it help if they both explicitly claimed that their PM indicated the other brother was town?

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JoeSapphire: bookwyrm wants to lynch hypersomnia, hypersomnia wants to lynch bookwyrm, no-one's interested in sirp. Vitek's oddly convincing. I'm quite distracted right now.
Mafia brain `~`
Just vote with me and everything will be fine.
Posted October 13, 2018
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Bookwyrm627: -.-

Would it help if they both explicitly claimed that their PM indicated the other brother was town?
-.-;

Did you miss the part where mixed faction siblings often have a joint win condition? The town one would absolutely have a reason to lie for their mafia brother if they were playing to that condition.
Posted October 13, 2018
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Bookwyrm627: -.-

Would it help if they both explicitly claimed that their PM indicated the other brother was town?
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SirPrimalform: -.-;

Did you miss the part where mixed faction siblings often have a joint win condition? The town one would absolutely have a reason to lie for their mafia brother if they were playing to that condition.
Do you think it is reasonable for there to be an extra two players pulled from town that will (potentially) work against them? In addition to the two other Mafia? And that town apparently lost power roles to enable this? I guess Town sacrifice two mason slots and Mafia sacrificed a Godfather slot to enable Yet Another Faction to exist. Maybe they consumed the Serial Killer too?

How do you suppose that setup went? Layout how you think ZFR, first time mod using an existing setup as a base, went about developing this T/W pairing.
Posted October 13, 2018
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SirPrimalform: -.-;

Did you miss the part where mixed faction siblings often have a joint win condition? The town one would absolutely have a reason to lie for their mafia brother if they were playing to that condition.
Is it your current theory and do you want to lynch them? Or are you just musing and distracting from lynching real scum.
If not them, who would you lynch?

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SirPrimalform: It's possible, but I still kind of feel like Vitek is more likely SK (or vig I guess unless that's been ruled out).
It's a meta argument but if I were one of those you'd all be shot dozen times. I have recently been complaining to everyone I never got to shot anyone and I certainly wouldn't pass that opportunity to shoot everyone in sight. :-)
Posted October 13, 2018
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Bookwyrm627: Do you think it is reasonable for there to be an extra two players pulled from town that will (potentially) work against them?
No, and I don't think it's likely either. I was just pointing out the flaw in your reasoning there. ;P
Them confirming each other is not hard fact, but I agree the likelyhood that ZFR has done that to us is low.

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Bookwyrm627: In addition to the two other Mafia? And that town apparently lost power roles to enable this? I guess Town sacrifice two mason slots and Mafia sacrificed a Godfather slot to enable Yet Another Faction to exist. Maybe they consumed the Serial Killer too?
This joint win condition is usually in addition to their factional win conditions so either brother can win (albeit dead) with their faction. They don't count against the town and mafia as much as you seem to think. Anyway, I'm not arguing this is likely, I'm just shooting down your argument because you didn't read my post properly before and it doesn't sound like you've looked at the wiki either.

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Bookwyrm627: How do you suppose that setup went? Layout how you think ZFR, first time mod using an existing setup as a base, went about developing this T/W pairing.
If it was the case I would think it would require extra work to balance it, at which point we wouldn't really be playing C9++ with a twist any more. Again, I do not think this scenario is likely, I was just poking holes in the reasoning in your previous post because it was flawed. :P

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Vitek: Is it your current theory and do you want to lynch them? Or are you just musing and distracting from lynching real scum.
If not them, who would you lynch?
Nope and nope (see above). Bookwyrm is the one who wanted to carry on talking about it, I just had to take care of his wrongnitude.
So obviously for me, the final vote is between HSL, Bookwyrm and you. I haven't exactly forgotten about HSL but I need to try and stop tunnelling (even if I end up concluding that I was right).

Speaking of which, why didn't you vote for scene at the end of D1? We all know trent's reason now.

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Vitek: It's a meta argument but if I were one of those you'd all be shot dozen times. I have recently been complaining to everyone I never got to shot anyone and I certainly wouldn't pass that opportunity to shoot everyone in sight. :-)
I believe that actually.
Posted October 13, 2018
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SirPrimalform: Anyway, I'm not arguing this is likely, I'm just shooting down your argument because you didn't read my post properly before and it doesn't sound like you've looked at the wiki either.
I've skimmed the role on the wiki, and I've read your posts. I'm simply calling the scenario absurd and not even worth being paranoid about. I'd believe a straight 4 mafia team before I'd believe this is in play.

I want you to move on to actual, realistic theories and solving this game.

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SirPrimalform: Nope and nope (see above). Bookwyrm is the one who wanted to carry on talking about it, I just had to take care of his wrongnitude.
Heh.
Posted October 13, 2018
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Bookwyrm627: I've skimmed the role on the wiki, and I've read your posts. I'm simply calling the scenario absurd and not even worth being paranoid about. I'd believe a straight 4 mafia team before I'd believe this is in play.

I want you to move on to actual, realistic theories and solving this game.

Heh.
I agree it's incredibly unlikely and I was completely finished with it until you brought it back up.

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Bookwyrm627: -.-

Would it help if they both explicitly claimed that their PM indicated the other brother was town?
Your -.- face made me feel the need to point out how completely irrelevant that post was though.

I'm still ploughing through this mountain of work I have but I stupidly left Galaxy open and got a pop-up when you replied doesn't look like the thread is going to move fast this evening so I bid you adieu. Got to stop getting distracted!
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionGOG Mafia #55 - Trouble at Arstotzkan Boot Camp(1211 posts)(1211 posts)
(1211 posts)