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General discussionGetting back to our roots(1418 posts)(1418 posts)
(1418 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 11, 2014
Hey, GOGgers,

We're not perfect, we're exploring new frontiers, and we make mistakes. We thought DRM-Free was so important that you'd prefer we bring you more DRM-Free games and Fair Price was less critical and that it could be sacrificed in some cases. The last two week's worth of comments in our forums (nearly 10k!), show that's not the case. We didn’t listen and we let you down. We shouldn't sacrifice one of our core values in an attempt to advance another. We feel bad about that, and we're sorry. Us being sorry is not of much use to you, so let’s talk about how we will fix it.

One: DRM-free forever. Abandoning fixed regional pricing means it will probably take longer to get some games, but you've made it clear that sacrificing fair pricing for more DRM-free games isn't acceptable.

Two: We will adamantly continue to fight for games with flat worldwide pricing. If that fails and we are required to have regional prices, we will make up the difference for you out of our own pockets. For now it will be with $5.99 and $9.99 game codes. In a couple of months, once we have such functionality implemented, we will give you store credit instead, which then you will be able to use towards any purchase and cover the price of it in full or partially. Effectively gamers from all around the world will be able to benefit from the US prices.

This will apply to every single game where we do not have flat pricing, such as Age of Wonders 3 (full details here), Divinity: Original Sin, and The Witcher 3. If you remember the Fair Price Package for The Witcher 2, this will be exactly the same.

Three: We still intend to introduce the pricing in local currencies. Let us explain why we want to do it and how we want to make it fair for everyone. From the very beginning our intention was to make things easier for users whose credit cards/payment systems are not natively in USD. The advantages are simple because the price is more understandable and easier to relate to. There would be no exchange rates involved, no transaction fees, and no other hidden charges. However after reading your comments, we realized we have taken an important element away: the choice. In order to fix this, we'll offer the option of paying in the local currency or the equivalent in USD. This way, how you pay is always your choice.

Four: You are what matters, and we will be sure to involve you all more in what we're doing and why we're doing it. Let's start by meeting you at GDC - we’d like to invite you to meet us face-to-face Monday the 17th at GDC. Obviously, not all of you can come to San Francisco, so we want to invite all of you to an online event with us early in April to ask us whatever you would like. More details soon.

The bottom line is simple: there may be companies that won't work with us (although we will work hard to convince the most stubborn ones ;). Yes, it means we might miss out on some games, but at the same time GOG.com will remain true to its values and will keep on offering you the best of DRM-free gaming with Fair Prices.

Once again thank you for caring so much about GOG.com. We will work hard not to disappoint you again.

--Marcin "iWi" Iwinski & Guillaume "TheFrenchMonk" Rambourg
Posted March 12, 2014
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TheEnigmaticT: ...but take it from me that if you want to pick up AoW3 from us, go ahead. Whether it helps us showcase that we're a good destination for new games--which lets us fight for flat prices--or just to help show the Triumph guys that they're you appreciate them being mensches for adapting to the changes we're putting in place, there's good reasons to pick up AoW3 if you're inclined. :)
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NetAndy: Now the real question is, do I want AoW3? :)
You gotta admit, it looks pretty sweet.
Posted March 12, 2014
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Shendue: At the moment, there are 2288 people disagreeing with you here: http://www.gog.com/wishlist/site/ban_all_regional_pricing_from_gog_stick_with_your_principles , and the number is growing (note that this has been CONSTANTLY the most voted site feature request for THREE WEEKS).
You have all rights of disagreeing, but that won't make your personal views on the subject the universal truth for every customer. Do you really thing that the GOG team is so stupid that they would let a minority of people complaining influence them? It's pretty obvious that you are underestimating the number of people that is complaining, and possibly actively boycotting them by not buying games anymore. Otherwise, they wouldn't have taken step backs over their previous decisions.
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gooneysenior: Alrighty, you've got a point there (at least about "a couple hundred" vs. 2.288). Now, I'm pretty sure that 2.288 people still ARE a minority. And how many of these people are real customers?
In the end only the GOGers know. And I'm not imposing my view on others nor do I think my view is the universal truth. I'm guessing from past experiences. I don't have numbers. that's why I wrote things like "to me", "I think" and so forth.
Anyhow: I dearly hope you're right about GOG knowing what they do and working with real numbers. There have been many cases in the past where companies did NOT follow facts but opinions. Short term reaction to avoid a boycot is one thing. Long term planning is another.
Again, i'm pretty sure GOG isn't that stupid that they made a few hundred aliases made in the last two weeks fool them. Actually, to be honest i don't even think they did care that much as they say. They probably took a hit in sales, despite all the offers they made in the last two weeks, and that made them reconsider the whole thing. Also, maybe not as many companies as they expected threw their games at them to sell on the site. I guess they thought allowing them to scam people with (fake/pumped up) regional pricing would be enough to convince them joining GOG, but eventually understood that they won't unless they allow them to use DRM, no matter what.
That said, i still appreciate their efforts to make their customers happy, no matter the reason.
Post edited March 12, 2014 by Shendue
Posted March 12, 2014
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KMetalMind: I wasn´t one of the angry guys but I was certainly afraid GOG could progressively abandon their principles.
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F4LL0UT: I still don't get where people were getting this from. It was instantly clear that GOG decided to abandon one of their rules that they didn't think was *that* important to the community to fully support the most important one: as many DRM free releases as possible. And they clearly were thinking that they were doing a GOOD thing for their community. It should have been clear to everyone then, GOG is clearly stating that now, I hope NOW everyone friggin' gets it.

I can live with fewer titles on the catalogue if more people are happy now but it kinda pisses me off that the outrage that lead to this was largely about the "betrayal", not the regional pricing, while there clearly never was any betrayal of the customers. I'm okay with where we got but not with how we got here.
You´re bitching more than people that "bitched" about the principle change. If you see as not a "betrayal" it´s fine, but many saw that other way, me included, and you didn´t state points that would show why that wasn´t a betrayal, you are just disqualifying people that thought in this way.

You´re restored my goodwill towards you partially GOG, thanks! I say partially because from now on I´ll take a bit of precaution with your next moves, but now you´re back at my first option DD store. And kudos to all that complained, bitched and boycotted, because we would not get this without it.
Posted March 12, 2014
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gooneysenior: Alrighty, you've got a point there (at least about "a couple hundred" vs. 2.288). Now, I'm pretty sure that 2.288 people still ARE a minority. And how many of these people are real customers?
In the end only the GOGers know. And I'm not imposing my view on others nor do I think my view is the universal truth. I'm guessing from past experiences. I don't have numbers. that's why I wrote things like "to me", "I think" and so forth.
Anyhow: I dearly hope you're right about GOG knowing what they do and working with real numbers. There have been many cases in the past where companies did NOT follow facts but opinions. Short term reaction to avoid a boycot is one thing. Long term planning is another.
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Shendue: Again, i'm pretty sure GOG isn't that stupid that they made a few hundred aliases made in the last two weeks fool them. Actually, to be honest i don't even think they did care that much as they say. They probably took a hit in sales, despite all the offers they made in the last two weeks, and that made them reconsider the whole thing. Also, maybe not as many companies as they expected threw their games at them to sell on the site. I guess they thought allowing them to scam people with (fake/pumped up) regional pricing would be enough to convince them joining GOG, but eventually understood that they won't unless they allow them to use DRM, no matter what.
Actually, despite any doubts I might have whether the scenario you describe is the one that actually happens/ed, I'd actually prefer it to be true. Because that means the guys are working to remain profitable. Which means they're going to stick around longer. Which means more DRM free titles for me. Yay!
Now I hope they don't decide to drop their DRM-attitude anytime soon...
Posted March 12, 2014
Admirable! To me it's always more important how you address a mis-step than failing to be perfect!

As a token of my appreciation, I'm going to buy the next game I fancy on GOG.com at full price instead of waiting for it to appear at 75% discount like the skinflint I usually am..
Posted March 12, 2014
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HereForTheBeer: Speaking for myself only, I'll happily pay a higher base of $7.99 and $11.99 (1/5 - 1/3 higher) for good titles if it helps spread DRM-free throughout the industry.
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gooneysenior: I think you're speaking not only for yourself but for many others too (me included).
.....
... DRM needs to be supported. If that means increasing prices a little bit, I'm all for it and willing to pay a few extra bucks.
DRM-FREE needs to be supported, right. No discussion about that point. But with higher prices I have another opinion, because not everyone has a good job and few people here are unemployed as I read sometimes. And also I'd say, what matters is not the price per game itself, but more the total revenue at the end of the bill. Higher prices doesn't mean more income, when at the same time the buyings go back at all. I guess the leaders of gog.com are pretty good at calculating and they know what they do. At least I hope so. ;)
If you want support this revolution (DRM-Liberty) then there are many and more creative ways: Buy more games at normal price instead in sales. Gift other people, friends, family, your pets (if they're online). Make give aways here OR (better) in other gaming site forums. That would all help to spread the word about gog.com for those who haven't heard about it or still think "GOG" stands for good old games only.

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gooneysenior: ....
Now I hope they don't decide to drop their DRM-attitude anytime soon...
Read point One in the GOG-news above.
Post edited March 12, 2014 by gamefood
Posted March 12, 2014
Wow. Well done GOG. Impressive.
Posted March 12, 2014
I'm very happy that GOG admitted they made a possible mistake and that they listened to feedback from customers, and i don't want to seem a whiny bitch, but there's a point i don't understand.
I'm talking about point three, precisely.

They wrote:
Three: We still intend to introduce the pricing in local currencies. Let us explain why we want to do it and how we want to make it fair for everyone. From the very beginning our intention was to make things easier for users whose credit cards/payment systems are not natively in USD. The advantages are simple because the price is more understandable and easier to relate to. THERE WOULD BE NO EXCHANGE RATES INVOLVED, no transaction fees, and no other hidden charges. However after reading your comments, we realized we have taken an important element away: the choice. In order to fix this, we'll offer the option of paying in the local currency or THE EQUIVALENT in USD. This way, how you pay is always your choice.
As far as i understand, the point of concern about this from many people was, by switching to local currencies pricing, that the converted price in local currency didn't take into account the exchange rates, therefore not matching the exact price in USD. Exchange rates fluctuate on a daily basis, so if they price a 5.99$ game 4,49€, as they suggested in the other topic, depending on the $-to-€ currency change it may cost more, or less (probably more). In this very moment, for example, 5.99$ equals to about 4,31€, which means that, with that local pricing, we would pay 0,18€ more for the same game. Which is obviously a very small sum, but if you multiply it for a number of games and for every customer, it makes for a substantial amount.
If they offer the option of paying in the local currency (Euro, in my case) or "THE EQUIVALENT IN USD", does that mean that i'll be able to choose to pay 4,49€ or 5.99$, which is absolutely fair and makes sense, or that i'll be given the option to pay 4,49€ or 6.23$, which is, in fact, the actual equivalent in USD, given the actual exchange ratio?
Posted March 12, 2014
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Shendue: I'm very happy that GOG admitted they made a possible mistake and that they listened to feedback from customers, and i don't want to seem a whiny bitch, but there's a point i don't understand.
I'm talking about point three, precisely.

They wrote:

Three: We still intend to introduce the pricing in local currencies. Let us explain why we want to do it and how we want to make it fair for everyone. From the very beginning our intention was to make things easier for users whose credit cards/payment systems are not natively in USD. The advantages are simple because the price is more understandable and easier to relate to. THERE WOULD BE NO EXCHANGE RATES INVOLVED, no transaction fees, and no other hidden charges. However after reading your comments, we realized we have taken an important element away: the choice. In order to fix this, we'll offer the option of paying in the local currency or THE EQUIVALENT in USD. This way, how you pay is always your choice.
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Shendue: As far as i understand, the point of concern about this from many people was, by switching to local currencies pricing, that the converted price in local currency didn't take into account the exchange rates, therefore not matching the exact price in USD. Exchange rates fluctuate on a daily basis, so if they price a 5.99$ game 4,49€, as they suggested in the other topic, depending on the $-to-€ currency change it may cost more, or less (probably more). In this very moment, for example, 5.99$ equals to about 4,31€, which means that, with that local pricing, we would pay 0,18€ more for the same game. Which is obviously a very small sum, but if you multiply it for a number of games and for every customer, it makes for a substantial amount.
If they offer the option of paying in the local currency (Euro, in my case) or "THE EQUIVALENT IN USD", does that mean that i'll be able to choose to pay 4,49€ or 5.99$, which is absolutely fair and makes sense, or that i'll be given the option to pay 4,49€ or 6.23$, which is, in fact, the actual equivalent in USD, given the actual exchange ratio?
Some of us were wondering the same, but it's been answered now:

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SirPrimalform: Thanks, but that's not quite the info I was looking for.

I'll try rephrasing the question.

Does that mean the equivalent price point? e.g. a choice between €4.49 or $5.99 for those in the Eurozone

Or does it mean the equivalent value in USD? e.g. a choice between €4.49 and $6.22 (which is €4.49 in USD at the current exchange rate)
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TheEnigmaticT: That will vary from game to game. For games with regional pricing differences, we will offer credit back to you guys (in the form of game codes now; store credit later) for the approximate difference in the game's price vs. the US (or index) price. In either circumstance, you will be able to pay in your local currency for the transaction. Let's explain by example of our very own Age of Wonders III. The standard edition of the game is $39.99. In the UK, it is 29.99 GBP; for the moment we don't accept any currency so we're charging UK gamers $49.99 USD. That's a $9.99 difference, so we will be providing any UK gamer with a game code good for any game with a full price of $9.99 or less in our catalog. In the future, once we have the capacity, we will allow UK gamers to either pay in USD or in GBP at their whim, but they will need to pay the GBP price for their region.

Now, we've mentioned that we are going to be fighting for flat pricing for games, and we mean this. A quick examination of the costs of regional pricing using publicly-available information would show you why: it costs us money. If we're collecting $49.99 USD for the game, that means at industry-standard revenue share of 30%, we get about $15. Since the sale price of the game was $49.99 and VAT in the UK is 20%, that means we owe about $10 USD in VAT. Then the game that you're receiving from us is another $10 USD. That means we've earned $15 from the preorder and our costs are $17, or we're losing about $2 per unit sold in the UK with regional pricing. Keeping in mind that I'm basing my maths above off of publicly-available numbers rather than any inside knowledge I might have, you can see see that we have good reasons to try and get games at flat pricing. :)

For games that do not have regional pricing (like our catalog of classic content), you will be able to pay in regional currency or in USD, depending on your preference, but you will be paying the same flat price. A $5.99 game will be available to you for either $5.99 or £3.49, depending on your preferences.

Hope that answers your questions. :)
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SirPrimalform: Well I must say this is extremely welcome! Thank you for listening eventually (I get that it takes time to agree on a U turn like this).

I hope someone can be more specific about how this relates to the classic games though. You talk about the choice to pay in local currency or the equivalent in USD... so does this mean € users can pay $5.99 for a $5.99 classic if they choose USD or does that mean the USD equivalent of €4.49, which is $6.22? The difference is not huge but it's still a question I'm interested in the answer to.
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iWi: It relates to the classics as follows - if you choose USD you pay the USD price i.e. $5.99 as per your example. If you go for the local price you will pay a fixed price in given currency - for example €4.49. You are free to choose whatever works best for you at a given time and yes - currencies will fluctuate, so sometimes the USD price will be a better deal and sometimes the local price, but the differences should not be big.
Post edited March 12, 2014 by shadowbaneaxe
Posted March 12, 2014
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GOG.com: Two: We will adamantly continue to fight for games with flat worldwide pricing. If that fails and we are required to have regional prices, we will make up the difference for you out of our own pockets. For now it will be with $5.99 and $9.99 game codes. In a couple of months, once we have such functionality implemented, we will give you store credit instead, which then you will be able to use towards any purchase and cover the price of it in full or partially. Effectively gamers from all around the world will be able to benefit from the US prices.
Could this mean we'll be getting GOG gift cards? Unless I'm mistaken, we're only able to gift specific games to people, not an amount (like 5.99 or 9.99) that said person can then spend on whatever game they want.

You should look into doing like Steam does - actual physical gift cards in stores.
Posted March 12, 2014
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Shendue: At the moment, there are 2288 people disagreeing with you here: http://www.gog.com/wishlist/site/ban_all_regional_pricing_from_gog_stick_with_your_principles , and the number is growing (note that this has been CONSTANTLY the most voted site feature request for THREE WEEKS).
You have all rights of disagreeing, but that won't make your personal views on the subject the universal truth for every customer. Do you really thing that the GOG team is so stupid that they would let a minority of people complaining influence them? It's pretty obvious that you are underestimating the number of people that is complaining, and possibly actively boycotting them by not buying games anymore. Otherwise, they wouldn't have taken step backs over their previous decisions.
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gooneysenior: Alrighty, you've got a point there (at least about "a couple hundred" vs. 2.288). Now, I'm pretty sure that 2.288 people still ARE a minority. And how many of these people are real customers?
In the end only the GOGers know. And I'm not imposing my view on others nor do I think my view is the universal truth. I'm guessing from past experiences. I don't have numbers. that's why I wrote things like "to me", "I think" and so forth.
Anyhow: I dearly hope you're right about GOG knowing what they do and working with real numbers. There have been many cases in the past where companies did NOT follow facts but opinions. Short term reaction to avoid a boycot is one thing. Long term planning is another.
we don't really know what reason made gog rethink their decision, but it might be a fall of the sales.

by the way, you think that there might be many users that agree with the local pricing but have not voiced their opìnion in the forums... i think that many other users from all parts of the world might be opposed to the local pricing but have not voiced their opinions in the forums (maybe because they find dificult to express in english), and they have stopped buying games instead
Post edited March 12, 2014 by narrick
Posted March 12, 2014
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GOG.com: Two: We will adamantly continue to fight for games with flat worldwide pricing. If that fails and we are required to have regional prices, we will make up the difference for you out of our own pockets. For now it will be with $5.99 and $9.99 game codes. In a couple of months, once we have such functionality implemented, we will give you store credit instead, which then you will be able to use towards any purchase and cover the price of it in full or partially. Effectively gamers from all around the world will be able to benefit from the US prices.
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tfishell: Could this mean we'll be getting GOG gift cards? Unless I'm mistaken, we're only able to gift specific games to people, not an amount (like 5.99 or 9.99) that said person can then spend on whatever game they want.

You should look into doing like Steam does - actual physical gift cards in stores.
Why physical gift cards? That just costs them more to produce and distribute. Gift codes work just fine...
Posted March 12, 2014
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tfishell: Could this mean we'll be getting GOG gift cards? Unless I'm mistaken, we're only able to gift specific games to people, not an amount (like 5.99 or 9.99) that said person can then spend on whatever game they want.

You should look into doing like Steam does - actual physical gift cards in stores.
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shadowbaneaxe: Why physical gift cards? That just costs them more to produce and distribute. Gift codes work just fine...
It gets the word out about GOG in the actual physical world. Admittedly stores might not be interested in a lesser-known service (versus Steam or Origin), but having gift cards in a place like Wal-Mart or Target, or similar stores in the UK and Europe, could theoretically help boost sales or at least peak curiosity as to what GOG is.
Posted March 12, 2014
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hmcpretender: I'm sure you wanted to say ""Eat more chocolate while playing great classic drm-free games" ;)
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TheEnigmaticT: The subordinate clause there is more of a bonus. Eating more chocolate appears to be the reason we're all here. Playing DRM-Free games is just what you should do for fun while you're at it. :D
This is seriously off-topic, but in case someone wants to play chocolate-themed games:

http://www.lexaloffle.com/choc.php


I have played it through, was fun.
Posted March 12, 2014
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Shendue: I'm very happy that GOG admitted they made a possible mistake and that they listened to feedback from customers, and i don't want to seem a whiny bitch, but there's a point i don't understand.
I'm talking about point three, precisely.

They wrote:

As far as i understand, the point of concern about this from many people was, by switching to local currencies pricing, that the converted price in local currency didn't take into account the exchange rates, therefore not matching the exact price in USD. Exchange rates fluctuate on a daily basis, so if they price a 5.99$ game 4,49€, as they suggested in the other topic, depending on the $-to-€ currency change it may cost more, or less (probably more). In this very moment, for example, 5.99$ equals to about 4,31€, which means that, with that local pricing, we would pay 0,18€ more for the same game. Which is obviously a very small sum, but if you multiply it for a number of games and for every customer, it makes for a substantial amount.
If they offer the option of paying in the local currency (Euro, in my case) or "THE EQUIVALENT IN USD", does that mean that i'll be able to choose to pay 4,49€ or 5.99$, which is absolutely fair and makes sense, or that i'll be given the option to pay 4,49€ or 6.23$, which is, in fact, the actual equivalent in USD, given the actual exchange ratio?
avatar
shadowbaneaxe: Some of us were wondering the same, but it's been answered now:

avatar
TheEnigmaticT: That will vary from game to game. For games with regional pricing differences, we will offer credit back to you guys (in the form of game codes now; store credit later) for the approximate difference in the game's price vs. the US (or index) price. In either circumstance, you will be able to pay in your local currency for the transaction. Let's explain by example of our very own Age of Wonders III. The standard edition of the game is $39.99. In the UK, it is 29.99 GBP; for the moment we don't accept any currency so we're charging UK gamers $49.99 USD. That's a $9.99 difference, so we will be providing any UK gamer with a game code good for any game with a full price of $9.99 or less in our catalog. In the future, once we have the capacity, we will allow UK gamers to either pay in USD or in GBP at their whim, but they will need to pay the GBP price for their region.

Now, we've mentioned that we are going to be fighting for flat pricing for games, and we mean this. A quick examination of the costs of regional pricing using publicly-available information would show you why: it costs us money. If we're collecting $49.99 USD for the game, that means at industry-standard revenue share of 30%, we get about $15. Since the sale price of the game was $49.99 and VAT in the UK is 20%, that means we owe about $10 USD in VAT. Then the game that you're receiving from us is another $10 USD. That means we've earned $15 from the preorder and our costs are $17, or we're losing about $2 per unit sold in the UK with regional pricing. Keeping in mind that I'm basing my maths above off of publicly-available numbers rather than any inside knowledge I might have, you can see see that we have good reasons to try and get games at flat pricing. :)

For games that do not have regional pricing (like our catalog of classic content), you will be able to pay in regional currency or in USD, depending on your preference, but you will be paying the same flat price. A $5.99 game will be available to you for either $5.99 or £3.49, depending on your preferences.

Hope that answers your questions. :)
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shadowbaneaxe:
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iWi: It relates to the classics as follows - if you choose USD you pay the USD price i.e. $5.99 as per your example. If you go for the local price you will pay a fixed price in given currency - for example €4.49. You are free to choose whatever works best for you at a given time and yes - currencies will fluctuate, so sometimes the USD price will be a better deal and sometimes the local price, but the differences should not be big.
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shadowbaneaxe:
I see, thank you. In fact, i thought that would be the case, since they explicitly said "no exchange rates" but i wanted to be sure.
So they'll just give the customers a choice between paying the same as everyone else or a flat pricing in their own currency. This seems a win-win scenario for customers, because depending on how much your credit card service charge you for conversion rates you can always choose the option that will allow you to pay less. Amazing.
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussionGetting back to our roots(1418 posts)(1418 posts)
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