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General discussionGetting back to our roots(1418 posts)(1418 posts)
(1418 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 11, 2014
Hey, GOGgers,

We're not perfect, we're exploring new frontiers, and we make mistakes. We thought DRM-Free was so important that you'd prefer we bring you more DRM-Free games and Fair Price was less critical and that it could be sacrificed in some cases. The last two week's worth of comments in our forums (nearly 10k!), show that's not the case. We didn’t listen and we let you down. We shouldn't sacrifice one of our core values in an attempt to advance another. We feel bad about that, and we're sorry. Us being sorry is not of much use to you, so let’s talk about how we will fix it.

One: DRM-free forever. Abandoning fixed regional pricing means it will probably take longer to get some games, but you've made it clear that sacrificing fair pricing for more DRM-free games isn't acceptable.

Two: We will adamantly continue to fight for games with flat worldwide pricing. If that fails and we are required to have regional prices, we will make up the difference for you out of our own pockets. For now it will be with $5.99 and $9.99 game codes. In a couple of months, once we have such functionality implemented, we will give you store credit instead, which then you will be able to use towards any purchase and cover the price of it in full or partially. Effectively gamers from all around the world will be able to benefit from the US prices.

This will apply to every single game where we do not have flat pricing, such as Age of Wonders 3 (full details here), Divinity: Original Sin, and The Witcher 3. If you remember the Fair Price Package for The Witcher 2, this will be exactly the same.

Three: We still intend to introduce the pricing in local currencies. Let us explain why we want to do it and how we want to make it fair for everyone. From the very beginning our intention was to make things easier for users whose credit cards/payment systems are not natively in USD. The advantages are simple because the price is more understandable and easier to relate to. There would be no exchange rates involved, no transaction fees, and no other hidden charges. However after reading your comments, we realized we have taken an important element away: the choice. In order to fix this, we'll offer the option of paying in the local currency or the equivalent in USD. This way, how you pay is always your choice.

Four: You are what matters, and we will be sure to involve you all more in what we're doing and why we're doing it. Let's start by meeting you at GDC - we’d like to invite you to meet us face-to-face Monday the 17th at GDC. Obviously, not all of you can come to San Francisco, so we want to invite all of you to an online event with us early in April to ask us whatever you would like. More details soon.

The bottom line is simple: there may be companies that won't work with us (although we will work hard to convince the most stubborn ones ;). Yes, it means we might miss out on some games, but at the same time GOG.com will remain true to its values and will keep on offering you the best of DRM-free gaming with Fair Prices.

Once again thank you for caring so much about GOG.com. We will work hard not to disappoint you again.

--Marcin "iWi" Iwinski & Guillaume "TheFrenchMonk" Rambourg
Posted March 13, 2014
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Messi_is_Messiah: I did read your whole post, it wasn't that long :p I however missed where you said gog users (like yourself). So I suppose that right there implied GOGers like you, and not necessarily the entire GOG user base, so my bad.

I still argue that GOG's main target audience is ANY pc gamer, and they get the DRM free niche audience as a bonus. It would be interesting to take a poll and see what percent of GOGers also use a steam account.

For gamers like me who have both, you have to admit that they are direct competitors. Any time they carry the same game that I want, I have to choose which one to buy from. The difference between me and most other gamers though is I try to always buy from GOG, and I try to get all my steamworks keys from gamersgate, because the last thing I want is to support steam's monopoly!

oh and the "you HAVE to have steam" is mostly if you play modern MP games, like I said in my previous post.

Also, if you have any interest in AAA modern games, you probably need steam, but it seems like gog wants to change that when they tried to introduce regional pricing.
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HypersomniacLive: So, if I understand you correctly, you don't actually care about DRM-free so long as you get to play the games you want, hence you just want to turn GOG into a Steam alternative because you need alternatives in order to not... support Steam's monopoly?
But you do support it - it doesn't matter where you buy your Steam keys from, the moment you activate them and use their platform you're counted to their statistics that demonstrate that they do monopolise the PC gaming scene and people love it.

I have no delusions that a good number of GOG users have and actively use a Steam account. That doesn't negate the fact that GOG primarily caters to us, because we're the only ones that wouldn't run to Steam if/ when GOG doesn't manage to satisfy us. I'm happy that GOG's efforts are towards getting DRM-free out of the corner of niche. You'd be happy if they just got every game you're interested in, regardless of conditions and price.
Well, we can always agree to disagree.

And they still introduced regional pricing and no, they're not losing money on every regionally priced sale - they make a much smaller profit in some cases (which are not the majority of their user base), break even in even less cases and make full profit on purchases from the majority of their user base. Overall, that leaves them in the black and with more profit than not doing it at all and most likely with more than what they'd be doing if they didn't make the adjustments.
Do you think that they adopted this new model because sales were doing great? Or do you think that they would have made this compromise without running their P/L numbers that showed them that they will still grow?
Assumptions make an -ass- out of -u- and -me- so I wouldn't recommend making them.
I currently own 391 gogs, so I would assume (hehe) I'm a pretty big supporter of the DRM free revolution.

To be honest I'm quite a heavy multiplayer gamer and Day of Defeat was in the center of my golden age of gaming so I've been with steam since it was still in beta. I've also always had a thing against steam because it basically destroyed the half life mod community when it replaced won.net

I've used steam out of necessity for the last 10 years because it is THE place for mainstream pc multiplayer gaming. I don't have the numbers to back that up IamSinistar, but if you can find any numbers that DON"T back that up, then I will take that statement back and apologize for the "presumption of majority" fallacy.

hmmm maybe this info would be good enough for you?
http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

Do you have any stats that would suggest this is the minority and not majority?
Posted March 13, 2014
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OldFatGuy: I apologize for not understanding, but I just wanted to say that I assure you the US "forces" anyone that wants to sell something in the US to follow US law, whether they're a US company or not. I'm pretty sure most every nation on earth does this. But as I said I'm not understanding what you're saying (again, sorry about that) so this probably has no relevance but I did want to make it clear.

As an example, if you're a seller in Europe, and you want to sell something in the US regarding weights and measures, I'm pretty sure the US forces those companies to change their advertising and/or labeling to show the US system instead of the metric system.
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HGiles: You missed the point. I think hedwards is complaining that the EU's regulations require international stores to display the VAT price regardless of if the user is a VAT customer. The accurate metaphor would be if the US required a company to use US weights and measures in all countries, not just in the US.
More or less. I'm complaining that in order to comply with that pricing requirement, that shops have to effectively advertise the higher price. Some ads may have room for both prices + the VAT, but many ads just don't have the space. Shops outside the EU would benefit by not having to advertise the price, so even if they are the same after VAT and what not, the shops not advertising the higher rates have an advantage.

Truth be told, I'd rather have the appropriate taxes included in the advertised prices, I just realize that it's effectively impossible for any advertisements that are done across city lines. Let alone internationally.
Posted March 13, 2014
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veronicatoro84: Sigh, I just don't understand why we lose out on games because some people do not feel like paying the asking price. Sigh, I guess now it is just a waiting game before we can get more quality games in the future.
I think the most commonly expressed concern here was not really about pricing as in "I don't want to be ripped off". While that was expressed as well, it wasn't the main point I think. The main issue was about GOG's principles. For many users GOG wasn't just about cheap games and not just "another store". GOG stood out as principled distributor and that was a point of attraction for many users who value GOG because of this. So the concern was about diluting principles, not really about growing prices so much. Since if GOG starts backing off on principles, then it can become just "another store" and people who came here because of GOG's core values feel bad about this.
Posted March 13, 2014
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HGiles: You missed the point. I think hedwards is complaining that the EU's regulations require international stores to display the VAT price regardless of if the user is a VAT customer. The accurate metaphor would be if the US required a company to use US weights and measures in all countries, not just in the US.
Once again I'm not understanding (sorry about that, my bad I know). Because this :"EU's regulations require international stores to display the VAT price regardless of if the user is a VAT customer." sounds like you're saying a Japanese company selling to a Brazilian customer would have to have VAT prices in their ads, and I can absolutely assure you that isn't the case.

Here's how things work for the most part. If you are a business, and you are located in the US, you have to follow US laws no matter where the customer is, because your business being in the US places you under US law. Then, if you decide to sell to EU customers, you ALSO have to follow EU law. You have to follow US law because that's where your business is AND you have to follow EU law in order to sell to someone in the EU.

And the same applies in reverse. If a company is located in the EU, they must follow EU laws regardless of where the customer is. Because of their location, they fall under EU jurisdiction. Then, if they wish to sell to someone in the US, they ALSO have to follow US law. They would have to follow EU law because of where there business is AND US law because of where their customer is.

Now if that same US company desired to sell in Japan, then they'd have to adhere to US law and Japanese law, but not EU law.

I'm pretty sure that's how this works, but I'm just not understanding and able to put what you're saying into that framework. But this is the same all over the world (for the most part). Now when you get into areas under NAFTA or other so-called "free trade" treaties there are some exceptions, and right now there are negotiations ongoing regarding such agreements between the US and the EU, but no agreement has been reached yet, or at least reached and agreed to by all the parties (there may be agreement amongst the negotiators, I haven't been following closely, but the individual countries involved haven't verified/approved those agreements yet. And there are similar talks going on regarding the Asian peninsula, also incomplete.

Without such treaties as that overriding national sovereign law, the way it works most of the time is as I described above I believe, though IANAL.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by OldFatGuy
Posted March 13, 2014
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HGiles: You missed the point. I think hedwards is complaining that the EU's regulations require international stores to display the VAT price regardless of if the user is a VAT customer. The accurate metaphor would be if the US required a company to use US weights and measures in all countries, not just in the US.
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OldFatGuy: Once again I'm not understanding (sorry about that, my bad I know). Because this :"EU's regulations require international stores to display the VAT price regardless of if the user is a VAT customer." sounds like you're saying a Japanese company selling to a Brazilian customer would have to have VAT prices in their ads, and I can absolutely assure you that isn't the case.

Here's how things work for the most part. If you are a business, and you are located in the US, you have to follow US laws no matter where the customer is, because your business being in the US places you under US law. Then, if you decide to sell to EU customers, you ALSO have to follow EU law. You have to follow US law because that's where your business is AND you have to follow EU law in order to sell to someone in the EU.

And the same applies in reverse. If a company is located in the EU, they must follow EU laws regardless of where the customer is. Because of their location, they fall under EU jurisdiction. Then, if they wish to sell to someone in the US, they ALSO have to follow US law. They would have to follow EU law because of where there business is AND US law because of where their customer is.

Now if that same US company desired to sell in Japan, then they'd have to adhere to US law and Japanese law, but not EU law.

I'm pretty sure that's how this works, but I'm just not understanding and able to put what you're saying into that framework. But this is the same all over the world (for the most part). Now when you get into areas under NAFTA or other so-called "free trade" treaties there are some exceptions, and right now there are negotiations ongoing regarding such agreements between the US and the EU, but no agreement has been reached yet, or at least reached and agreed to by all the parties (there may be agreement amongst the negotiators, I haven't been following closely, but the individual countries involved haven't verified/approved those agreements yet. And there are similar talks going on regarding the Asian peninsula, also incomplete.

Without such treaties as that overriding national sovereign law, the way it works most of the time is as I described above I believe, though IANAL.
That is an incorrectly simplified understanding of international business. To be fair, international business is so complex almost all simplifications introduce some massive error.

Which jurisdiction applies across international boundaries varies by product and business type. Generally, businesses do not have to abide by laws in places they are not located in, or that they are not selling in.

A company that sells in both the US and Australia must abide by US law for US customers, and Australia law for Australian customers. They don't need to abide by US law for Australian customers, outside of treaty agreements. EU advertising regulations require that *all businesses* abide by them, regardless of location.

Example: US foods are labeled by US units and dietary guidelines. French food follows French guidelines. Companies are not required to sell food in the US with French labels, or sell food in France with US labels. Not having the applicable country's labels would be incorrect. A company that sells products in both France and the US can sell those product with US labels in the US, and French labels in France. They do not have to put both labels on all their products.

The EU regulations requires that all prices be shown with VAT to EU customers. This is overreach. If one EU customer is *not* shown the VAT price, the business has broken the law.

It is the equivalent of requiring the France-and-US food seller to put both French and US labels on all their products in case a French citizen vacationing in the US buys from them. It means that either:

1) Countries take draconian and only semi-reliable tracking measures to figure out if a customer is in the EU, or
2) Companies just show VAT-inclusive prices regardless
Post edited March 13, 2014 by HGiles
Posted March 13, 2014
HAS ANYONE OF YOU READ MY LAST POST AT ALL??!? >:-(
Posted March 13, 2014
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HGiles: That is an incorrectly simplified understanding of international business. Which jurisdiction applies across international boundaries varies by product and business type. Generally, laws must be followed for customers *in the applicable country*. The EU regulations require that *all businesses* abide by them, regardless of location.

Example: US foods are labeled by US units and dietary guidelines. French food follows French guidelines. Companies are not required to sell food in the US with French labels, or sell food in France with US labels. Not having the applicable country's labels would be incorrect.

The EU regulations requires that all prices be shown with VAT to EU customers. This means that either:

1) Countries take draconian tracking measures to figure out if a customer is in the EU, or
2) Companies just show VAT-inclusive prices regardless

This is overreach. An EU regulation impacts how all businesses with a website work, regardless of location. Because if one EU customer is *not* shown the VAT price, the business has broken the law.
I'm sorry, but I think you're mistaken. As an example, I shop online all the time. I don't see the EU prices on most of the website I shop at. I was just shopping at Wal-Mart dot com and Amazon dot com and all the prices were shown in USD only. The only way a business has to show VAT included prices is if they sell to EU countries, which is exactly what I said above.
Posted March 13, 2014
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HGiles: That is an incorrectly simplified understanding of international business. Which jurisdiction applies across international boundaries varies by product and business type. Generally, laws must be followed for customers *in the applicable country*. The EU regulations require that *all businesses* abide by them, regardless of location.

Example: US foods are labeled by US units and dietary guidelines. French food follows French guidelines. Companies are not required to sell food in the US with French labels, or sell food in France with US labels. Not having the applicable country's labels would be incorrect.

The EU regulations requires that all prices be shown with VAT to EU customers. This means that either:

1) Countries take draconian tracking measures to figure out if a customer is in the EU, or
2) Companies just show VAT-inclusive prices regardless

This is overreach. An EU regulation impacts how all businesses with a website work, regardless of location. Because if one EU customer is *not* shown the VAT price, the business has broken the law.
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OldFatGuy: I'm sorry, but I think you're mistaken. As an example, I shop online all the time. I don't see the EU prices on most of the website I shop at. I was just shopping at Wal-Mart dot com and Amazon dot com and all the prices were shown in USD only. The only way a business has to show VAT included prices is if they sell to EU countries, which is exactly what I said above.
Those are both US-only sites that operate for US customers. Amazon EU customers are directed automatically to the applicable EU site, which does show VAT. Same for Wal-Mart. The US sides of those companies do not advertise in the EU and vice versa. People trying to buy from them in the EU must resort to tricks. Sometimes VPNs, sometimes just changing addresses. It's DRM in all but name on physical retail. Much like region-locking for DVDs and console games.

You got pretty worked up over regional prices on GOG. This is the same thing. EU regulations force either DRM-like measures or higher prices. Or ignoring the laws altogether and hoping no one cares. Precisely the same as DRM and regional prices do for games.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by HGiles
Posted March 13, 2014
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HGiles: Those are both US-only sites that operate for US customers. Amazon EU customers are directed automatically to the applicable EU site, which does show VAT.
Which is exactly as I described. When Amazon is selling to me in the US, and Amazon is in the US, they only have to follow US law. They don't have to follow EU law until they sell in the EU, and then their web site adheres to EU law.

If you or I open a business tomorrow, and only sell to US customers, we only have to follow US law. If we choose to also sell to customers in the EU, then we also have to follow EU law. This is how it works everywhere for the most I'm pretty sure.

If a business is located in the EU, then they have to follow EU law. If they decide to sell outside the EU, then they also have to follow the laws of the nations they're selling in is the way I understand it.

EDIT: Sorry, I responded before I saw your edit. But since I'm not understanding again what you're saying, I guess it's ok.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by OldFatGuy
Posted March 13, 2014
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HGiles: Those are both US-only sites that operate for US customers. Amazon EU customers are directed automatically to the applicable EU site, which does show VAT.
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OldFatGuy: Which is exactly as I described. When Amazon is selling to me in the US, and Amazon is in the US, they only have to follow US law. They don't have to follow EU law until they sell in the EU, and then their web site adheres to EU law.

If you or I open a business tomorrow, and only sell to US customers, we only have to follow US law. If we choose to also sell to customers in the EU, then we also have to follow EU law. This is how it works everywhere for the most I'm pretty sure.

If a business is located in the EU, then they have to follow EU law. If they decide to sell outside the EU, then they also have to follow the laws of the nations they're selling in is the way I understand it.
If they are not located in the EU but decide to sell there, they must change their prices for all customers, take a loss, or restructure their business to implement DRM. That is the complaint.

It's a question of what is appropriate for one nation to require of people in another nation. I think the US approach - citizens are responsible for obeying the law, not sellers located elsewhere - is the appropriate one. Others who believe differently would not have a problem with the EU requirements.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by HGiles
Posted March 13, 2014
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HGiles: If they are not located in the EU but decide to sell there, they must change their prices for all customers, take a loss, or restructure their business to implement DRM. That is the complaint.
Well, I do apologize, I'm just not following this at all. Are you saying because Amazon sells in the EU that when they sell to me in the US they have to charge me prices that include the VAT?? I absolutely don't believe that's correct. But that's what this sounds like.

I'll stop here since I'm obviously having so much trouble understanding. I do apologize for that, I'm old and I guess my brain doesn't work so well anymore, which makes sense since I know for a fact the rest of my body doesn't work so well anymore.

Have a good one and don't forget if you're a college hoops fan, March Madness starts next week!!! (that's the only basketball I like to watch, that tournament is fun to watch.)
Post edited March 13, 2014 by OldFatGuy
Posted March 13, 2014
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HGiles: If they are not located in the EU but decide to sell there, they must change their prices for all customers, take a loss, or restructure their business to implement DRM. That is the complaint.
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OldFatGuy: Well, I do apologize, I'm just not following this at all. Are you saying because Amazon sells in the EU that when they sell to me in the US they have to charge me prices that include the VAT?? I absolutely don't believe that's correct. But that's what this sounds like.

I'll stop here since I'm obviously having so much understanding. I do apologize for that, I'm old and I guess my brain doesn't work so well anymore, which makes sense since I know for a fact the rest of my body doesn't work so well anymore.

Have a good one and don't forget if you're a college hoops fan, March Madness starts next week!!! (that's the only basketball I like to watch, that tournament is fun to watch.)
Nah, I'm saying Amazon had to change it's business when expanding to the EU. Had to set up a whole EU site, hire a bunch of EU lawyers. Probably an intended side-effect of the regulation, EU employment rates could use all the help they can get. :)

No worries about not understanding it, international business takes a special kind of twistiness sometimes.
Posted March 14, 2014
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SAS_Kiev_UA: I bought many games on Steam instead of GoG because of its regional prices.
It's sad that GoG will not have them.
And yet that is the source of much issue for Valve, having to place locks and restrictions to prevent the majority userbase of resellers from giving everyone cheaper prices. Steam has DRM to try to prevent you guys from doing that, but GOG doesn't have that option.

I'd like to see what solution you'd have in mind or if you're aware of these problems. You can't just say "Steam is cheaper ;(" and expect that to appeal to anything.
Posted March 14, 2014
high rated
GOG is my hero!
I'm a Japanese.
Steam and other store,publishers treat us bad.
Attachments:
price.png (40 Kb)
Post edited March 14, 2014 by week
Posted March 14, 2014
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week: GOG is my hero!
I'm a Japanese.
Steam and other store,publishers treat us bad.
that pic...damn that's horrible
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionGetting back to our roots(1418 posts)(1418 posts)
(1418 posts)