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General discussionGetting back to our roots(1418 posts)(1418 posts)
(1418 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 11, 2014
Hey, GOGgers,

We're not perfect, we're exploring new frontiers, and we make mistakes. We thought DRM-Free was so important that you'd prefer we bring you more DRM-Free games and Fair Price was less critical and that it could be sacrificed in some cases. The last two week's worth of comments in our forums (nearly 10k!), show that's not the case. We didn’t listen and we let you down. We shouldn't sacrifice one of our core values in an attempt to advance another. We feel bad about that, and we're sorry. Us being sorry is not of much use to you, so let’s talk about how we will fix it.

One: DRM-free forever. Abandoning fixed regional pricing means it will probably take longer to get some games, but you've made it clear that sacrificing fair pricing for more DRM-free games isn't acceptable.

Two: We will adamantly continue to fight for games with flat worldwide pricing. If that fails and we are required to have regional prices, we will make up the difference for you out of our own pockets. For now it will be with $5.99 and $9.99 game codes. In a couple of months, once we have such functionality implemented, we will give you store credit instead, which then you will be able to use towards any purchase and cover the price of it in full or partially. Effectively gamers from all around the world will be able to benefit from the US prices.

This will apply to every single game where we do not have flat pricing, such as Age of Wonders 3 (full details here), Divinity: Original Sin, and The Witcher 3. If you remember the Fair Price Package for The Witcher 2, this will be exactly the same.

Three: We still intend to introduce the pricing in local currencies. Let us explain why we want to do it and how we want to make it fair for everyone. From the very beginning our intention was to make things easier for users whose credit cards/payment systems are not natively in USD. The advantages are simple because the price is more understandable and easier to relate to. There would be no exchange rates involved, no transaction fees, and no other hidden charges. However after reading your comments, we realized we have taken an important element away: the choice. In order to fix this, we'll offer the option of paying in the local currency or the equivalent in USD. This way, how you pay is always your choice.

Four: You are what matters, and we will be sure to involve you all more in what we're doing and why we're doing it. Let's start by meeting you at GDC - we’d like to invite you to meet us face-to-face Monday the 17th at GDC. Obviously, not all of you can come to San Francisco, so we want to invite all of you to an online event with us early in April to ask us whatever you would like. More details soon.

The bottom line is simple: there may be companies that won't work with us (although we will work hard to convince the most stubborn ones ;). Yes, it means we might miss out on some games, but at the same time GOG.com will remain true to its values and will keep on offering you the best of DRM-free gaming with Fair Prices.

Once again thank you for caring so much about GOG.com. We will work hard not to disappoint you again.

--Marcin "iWi" Iwinski & Guillaume "TheFrenchMonk" Rambourg
Posted March 13, 2014
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Matruchus: Interesting. Advertising prices without VAT in EU is not allowed since it is an integral part of the price and has to be paid for every product and service. There are though some exceptions, especially for health care and small companies (a.k.a. one person companies) and such. Not paying VAT when applicable is a serious case of tax evasion.
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hedwards: I like that idea, I just think that when it comes to international companies, it's a bit silly to require the advertisements and prices to include VAT when the adverts may or may not be going out to people that are required to pay the tax. For local ads in papers and such being displayed in the EU that makes sense, but for ads that may or may not be so well targeted, it would seem to me to cause a lot of unintended consequences.
Well the problem is that EU regulations state that for all EU constumers the prices most include local (country of costumers residency) VAT in all shown prices on the web store. I know it might be silly for other customers not from EU but we are so adapted to it already that we expect all prices on any web store to include any applicable taxes at any moment. The problem for web stores is how to implement that and they usually just show everybody the same interface with the price as for EU customers.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by Matruchus
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: I like that idea, I just think that when it comes to international companies, it's a bit silly to require the advertisements and prices to include VAT when the adverts may or may not be going out to people that are required to pay the tax. For local ads in papers and such being displayed in the EU that makes sense, but for ads that may or may not be so well targeted, it would seem to me to cause a lot of unintended consequences.
After reading the responses on VAT and US sale taxes, the most sane way to look at the matter in the case of GOG seems to be as following:

1. All prices include VAT and US sale taxes, where applicable, i.e. the prices do not necessarily represent the net value of the games.
2. Net value of each game varies based on VAT per EU country and US sale tax per state; it also depends on if any sort of taxes are applicable or not.
2. GOG collects and reports VAT, but does not the same for US sale taxes.


For someone from the EU it would take a lot of getting used to the US way. How do you figure out how much you'd have to pay at the super market, for example? Do you keep track of all and every single sale tax that's applied to purchases? Or is it one single tax percentage regardless of the nature of goods?
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: I like that idea, I just think that when it comes to international companies, it's a bit silly to require the advertisements and prices to include VAT when the adverts may or may not be going out to people that are required to pay the tax. For local ads in papers and such being displayed in the EU that makes sense, but for ads that may or may not be so well targeted, it would seem to me to cause a lot of unintended consequences.
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HypersomniacLive: After reading the responses on VAT and US sale taxes, the most sane way to look at the matter in the case of GOG seems to be as following:

1. All prices include VAT and US sale taxes, where applicable, i.e. the prices do not necessarily represent the net value of the games.
2. Net value of each game varies based on VAT per EU country and US sale tax per state; it also depends on if any sort of taxes are applicable or not.
2. GOG collects and reports VAT, but does not the same for US sale taxes.

For someone from the EU it would take a lot of getting used to the US way. How do you figure out how much you'd have to pay at the super market, for example? Do you keep track of all and every single sale tax that's applied to purchases? Or is it one single tax percentage regardless of the nature of goods?
It's worse than that. Some states charge sales tax on different things. For example, in Texas, sales tax is not collected on food items. is a candy bar considered food? Nope. It's a luxury so it's taxed. Plus, the state has it's tax rate and localities have their own. Most cities in Texas charge about 1 1/4 cents in sales tax. But in Houston, Metro collects and extra penny to fund transportation projects.

How does any figure what it costs? I just tack on 10%. It's usually less, but that will at least not run me short.
Posted March 13, 2014
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vicklemos: I try to run some gog games through wine 100% with little success since I hate configuring wine; it pisses me off!
In my case it's the opposite, I don't mind configuring Wine, and most Windows games I got on GOG work there (except a few which failed and are lost purchases for me).

Did you try PlayOnLinux? It automates Wine configuration for many games for those who don't want to do it manually.

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HypersomniacLive: I'm having a bit of trouble myself understanding what is confusing you. Then again it might be that I'm accustomed to the concept and regulations of VAT and you're not.

So, how does advertising work in the US? Are prices presented to end-user customers before any sale taxes are applied?
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JudasIscariot: Yes :)

This also applies to shelf prices as the tax is added (in Florida anyways) during the sale.
Does it meant that GOG has an office in Florida?
Post edited March 13, 2014 by shmerl
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: Right, but if the customer is responsible for knowing how much the tax is, how does it make any sense at all to mandate that international companies advertise the price including VAT? In cases like this it makes it very difficult for GOG to have a reasonable advertising policy and comply with the regulations.

Then again, this might just be something that I'm not going to understand, things can be very different in the EU than in the US.
Yeah, it's way different. And IMO, it's the EU that gets it right and not the USA.

The VAT is really almost identical to a sales tax in the USA. So, as an example, let's say the USA as a whole has a 5% sales tax and Germany has a 5% VAT. And let's say that in both examples a business decides to sell NEXT GREATEST THING to a customer for $20.00 (this is the amount the business keeps and both use the same currency).

With a 5% VAT, the total cost of the NEXT GREATEST THING is $21.00. So, in all of their advertising, stores in Germany must show a price of $21. When you see that price, and respond, and go to the store and purchase the NEXT GREATEST THING, you pay $21.

However, in the US, stores are allowed to advertise the NEXT GREATEST THING for $20.00 in big, bright letters. And if you see that price, and respond, and go to the store and purchase the NEXT GREATEST THING, when you check out you discover instead of paying the advertised price, you're actually paying $21.00 ($21.00 instead of $20.00).

So it is a sort of false advertising as in that if you show up at the store with $20.00 on you (the advertised price) you don't get to go home with the product. We've been so used to it we don't think of it like that anymore, but at it's most basic level that's how it is, you're not getting the product at the advertised price. That's why IMO the EU gets this right.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by OldFatGuy
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: Right, but if the customer is responsible for knowing how much the tax is, how does it make any sense at all to mandate that international companies advertise the price including VAT? In cases like this it makes it very difficult for GOG to have a reasonable advertising policy and comply with the regulations.

Then again, this might just be something that I'm not going to understand, things can be very different in the EU than in the US.
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OldFatGuy: Yeah, it's way different. And IMO, it's the EU that gets it right and not the USA.

The VAT is really almost identical to a sales tax in the USA. So, as an example, let's say the USA as a whole has a 5% sales tax and Germany has a 5% VAT. And let's say that in both examples a business decides to sell NEXT GREATEST THING to a customer for $20.00 (this is the amount the business keeps and both use the same currency).

With a 5% VAT, the total cost of the NEXT GREATEST THING is $21.00. So, in all of their advertising, stores in Germany must show a price of $21. When you see that price, and respond, and go to the store and purchase the NEXT GREATEST THING, you pay $21.

However, in the US, stores are allowed to advertise the NEXT GREATEST THING for $20.00 in big, bright letters. And if you see that price, and respond, and go to the store and purchase the NEXT GREATEST THING, when you check out you discover instead of paying the advertised price, you're actually paying $21.00 ($21.00 instead of $20.00).

So it is a sort of false advertising as in that if you show up at the store with $20.00 on you (the advertised price) you don't get to go home with the product. We've been so used to it we don't think of it like that anymore, but at it's most basic level that's how it is, you're not getting the product at the advertised price. That's why IMO the EU gets this right.
Yes, but the US doesn't force retailers to advertise a price that only applies in the US onto retailers that sell to people around the world. The EU has a nasty habit of overstepping on things like this.

Granted the US has its own issues, but generally we aren't quite as sanctimonious about how we would never do that. Regulating the internet like this just doesn't work.
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: Yes, but the US doesn't force retailers to advertise a price that only applies in the US onto retailers that sell to people around the world. The EU has a nasty habit of overstepping on things like this.

Granted the US has its own issues, but generally we aren't quite as sanctimonious about how we would never do that. Regulating the internet like this just doesn't work.
I apologize for not understanding, but I just wanted to say that I assure you the US "forces" anyone that wants to sell something in the US to follow US law, whether they're a US company or not. I'm pretty sure most every nation on earth does this. But as I said I'm not understanding what you're saying (again, sorry about that) so this probably has no relevance but I did want to make it clear.

As an example, if you're a seller in Europe, and you want to sell something in the US regarding weights and measures, I'm pretty sure the US forces those companies to change their advertising and/or labeling to show the US system instead of the metric system.
Posted March 13, 2014
ews***Special Evening News***Special Evening News***Special Evening News***Special Evening News***Special Ev


World. You are one of this poor souls who have System Shock™ 2 / Gemini Rue / Uplink: Hacker Elite / Chaos Overlords still on their wishlist at the well known and absolutely superb gog.com? Then would be now - YES NOW, NO THAT IS NO JOKE, RIGHT NOW - a good time to run and buy it! It seems gog has come silently around the corner with a little sale in the backpack! Every of the four games comes with a great 50% discount! The Reason of these sales, you ask? And how long will it last, you ask too? Who the heck knows?!? But one thing should be absolutely clear and there can be no doubt, and that is: *look at the attachment...* Go and spread the word!


ening News***Special Evening News***Special Evening News***Special Evening News***Special Evening News***Sp
Attachments:
gog-loves-you.jpg (152 Kb)
Post edited March 13, 2014 by gamefood
Posted March 13, 2014
low rated
Oh no!!!!!! Listen, I do not mind paying more if it means I can get more uality games free of DRM. What matters most to gamers is about quality content. Plus, Most foreign currencies are worth more than USD. Euros, Pounds, Dinars, and so on. Why should other gamers suffer because some don't feel like spending more? I would pay double, or even triple the price to get great games like Resident Evil, Titan Fall, and Metal Gear same day without the crazy DRM... Sigh, I just don't understand why we lose out on games because some people do not feel like paying the asking price. Sigh, I guess now it is just a waiting game before we can get more quality games in the future.
Posted March 13, 2014
I appreciate seeing the willingness to change based upon concerns. As a customer from the US, it was never about the price and all about trust. Trust is always lost faster and easier than it's gained, but this seems like a good step to me (even if I, personally, have less benefit from it than your original course).

On the other hand, your negotiation with publishers who have contracts that require regional pricing could be less about releases and more about getting those games a bit later.

Another thing you could try is for each new release game you negotiate, get permission to do a user vote asking all of us if we want the game DRM-free on day one enough to consider regional pricing acceptable for it (potentially with differing methods of compensation for regions with worse pricing). Personally, I think that could advance gaming in another helpful way, by giving publishers some data behind how much a set of customers wanting to pay for their game cares about it (and you could release to them the vote totals for each of the different price point regions, too). Giving another metric to help select for good games and visibly give a pass to trash could be helpful to allow studios to get better ideas as to what makes better games and who's excited by them regardless of if GOG ends up selling them on day one or not. You could always make the vote breakdowns contingent on them offering the game on GOG at a future date without regional pricing if it loses the initial vote, too.

Also, for games that promise release on GOG on their Kickstarter, no compromise on regional pricing. They made the promise, not you, and they should know that's a consequence of the promise and if someone has to go back on a promise at that point, it should be them.
Posted March 13, 2014
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IAmSinistar: It is the requirement of Steam to be a "true" gamer that I balk at. It's the same kind of almost-religious arrogance I hear from gamers of every stripe ("real gamers play on Xbox", "proper gamers don't play casual games", etc). The "presumption of majority" fallacy is this as well, the immature conceit that comes from living in a pocket reality and mistaking it for the world at large.
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Neobr10: I agree with you there. The "true gamer" requirement was a poor choice of words. However, i think that what he said about multiplayer gaming is accurate for the most part. For people who enjoy multiplayer gaming Steam is pretty much a requirement nowadays. Even indie games rely on Steam to provide the servers. Heck, even F2P games are moving into Steam now (some are exclusive to Steam, like Loadout and Gunz 2).
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CarrionCrow: If you don't vote for the Jack Keane Dominion, you're a fool.
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Neobr10: Jack Keane FOREVER!
You guys are fraudulently putting those words in my mouth! When did I ever say anything about being a "TRUE Gamer"?????? Please find that quote! You're apprarently "balking" at your own imagination.

Perhaps I may have worded it poorly since I now have to say for the THIRD time that I'm mostly talking about MP gaming when it comes to steam being a requirement!!!
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: Right, AFAIK, every state with a sales tax works like that. Occasionally a shop will include the tax in the price, but that's rare and usually just vendors that are operating without a cash register so that they can avoid having to make change.

And technically we're supposed to pay a use tax on anything we buy here, but because GOG isn't required to collect, remit or report that, I doubt anybody pays.

Around here, I'm not even sure how I would go about paying it, and AFAIK, the state doesn't even enforce it. I've never heard of anybody being fined or sued over it.
No clue for Florida, but in Ohio, the use tax is a self-reported field on your state income taxes, so you pay it by including it there.

I haven't heard of anyone here getting sued about it, but with the budgets of governments at all levels shrinking, I figure it's just a matter of time for it to seem like sufficient cost/benefit for the state. They may go after bigger offenders first and leave smaller ones alone, but with the increased ease of grabbing more and more data, I could see the little guys pursued first too (little guys don't fight the IRS as hard as the big guys do).
Posted March 13, 2014
And my point about GOG losing money on regionally priced units sold was based on Enigmatic T's earlier comment about $2.00 being lost on every regional priced game sold in that example he gave, remember? Or has that been debunked?
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: Yes, but the US doesn't force retailers to advertise a price that only applies in the US onto retailers that sell to people around the world. The EU has a nasty habit of overstepping on things like this.

Granted the US has its own issues, but generally we aren't quite as sanctimonious about how we would never do that. Regulating the internet like this just doesn't work.
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OldFatGuy: I apologize for not understanding, but I just wanted to say that I assure you the US "forces" anyone that wants to sell something in the US to follow US law, whether they're a US company or not. I'm pretty sure most every nation on earth does this. But as I said I'm not understanding what you're saying (again, sorry about that) so this probably has no relevance but I did want to make it clear.

As an example, if you're a seller in Europe, and you want to sell something in the US regarding weights and measures, I'm pretty sure the US forces those companies to change their advertising and/or labeling to show the US system instead of the metric system.
You missed the point. I think hedwards is complaining that the EU's regulations require international stores to display the VAT price regardless of if the user is a VAT customer. The accurate metaphor would be if the US required a company to use US weights and measures in all countries, not just in the US.
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: Right, AFAIK, every state with a sales tax works like that. Occasionally a shop will include the tax in the price, but that's rare and usually just vendors that are operating without a cash register so that they can avoid having to make change.

And technically we're supposed to pay a use tax on anything we buy here, but because GOG isn't required to collect, remit or report that, I doubt anybody pays.

Around here, I'm not even sure how I would go about paying it, and AFAIK, the state doesn't even enforce it. I've never heard of anybody being fined or sued over it.
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PaladinWay: No clue for Florida, but in Ohio, the use tax is a self-reported field on your state income taxes, so you pay it by including it there.

I haven't heard of anyone here getting sued about it, but with the budgets of governments at all levels shrinking, I figure it's just a matter of time for it to seem like sufficient cost/benefit for the state. They may go after bigger offenders first and leave smaller ones alone, but with the increased ease of grabbing more and more data, I could see the little guys pursued first too (little guys don't fight the IRS as hard as the big guys do).
Well, we don't have income taxes here, so we don't have those forms. Like I've said, I'm not even sure how I would go about paying the taxes as we don't usually get forms to fill out.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionGetting back to our roots(1418 posts)(1418 posts)
(1418 posts)