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General discussionGetting back to our roots(1418 posts)(1418 posts)
(1418 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 11, 2014
Hey, GOGgers,

We're not perfect, we're exploring new frontiers, and we make mistakes. We thought DRM-Free was so important that you'd prefer we bring you more DRM-Free games and Fair Price was less critical and that it could be sacrificed in some cases. The last two week's worth of comments in our forums (nearly 10k!), show that's not the case. We didn’t listen and we let you down. We shouldn't sacrifice one of our core values in an attempt to advance another. We feel bad about that, and we're sorry. Us being sorry is not of much use to you, so let’s talk about how we will fix it.

One: DRM-free forever. Abandoning fixed regional pricing means it will probably take longer to get some games, but you've made it clear that sacrificing fair pricing for more DRM-free games isn't acceptable.

Two: We will adamantly continue to fight for games with flat worldwide pricing. If that fails and we are required to have regional prices, we will make up the difference for you out of our own pockets. For now it will be with $5.99 and $9.99 game codes. In a couple of months, once we have such functionality implemented, we will give you store credit instead, which then you will be able to use towards any purchase and cover the price of it in full or partially. Effectively gamers from all around the world will be able to benefit from the US prices.

This will apply to every single game where we do not have flat pricing, such as Age of Wonders 3 (full details here), Divinity: Original Sin, and The Witcher 3. If you remember the Fair Price Package for The Witcher 2, this will be exactly the same.

Three: We still intend to introduce the pricing in local currencies. Let us explain why we want to do it and how we want to make it fair for everyone. From the very beginning our intention was to make things easier for users whose credit cards/payment systems are not natively in USD. The advantages are simple because the price is more understandable and easier to relate to. There would be no exchange rates involved, no transaction fees, and no other hidden charges. However after reading your comments, we realized we have taken an important element away: the choice. In order to fix this, we'll offer the option of paying in the local currency or the equivalent in USD. This way, how you pay is always your choice.

Four: You are what matters, and we will be sure to involve you all more in what we're doing and why we're doing it. Let's start by meeting you at GDC - we’d like to invite you to meet us face-to-face Monday the 17th at GDC. Obviously, not all of you can come to San Francisco, so we want to invite all of you to an online event with us early in April to ask us whatever you would like. More details soon.

The bottom line is simple: there may be companies that won't work with us (although we will work hard to convince the most stubborn ones ;). Yes, it means we might miss out on some games, but at the same time GOG.com will remain true to its values and will keep on offering you the best of DRM-free gaming with Fair Prices.

Once again thank you for caring so much about GOG.com. We will work hard not to disappoint you again.

--Marcin "iWi" Iwinski & Guillaume "TheFrenchMonk" Rambourg
Posted March 13, 2014
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IAmSinistar: It is the requirement of Steam to be a "true" gamer that I balk at. It's the same kind of almost-religious arrogance I hear from gamers of every stripe ("real gamers play on Xbox", "proper gamers don't play casual games", etc). The "presumption of majority" fallacy is this as well, the immature conceit that comes from living in a pocket reality and mistaking it for the world at large.
I agree with you there. The "true gamer" requirement was a poor choice of words. However, i think that what he said about multiplayer gaming is accurate for the most part. For people who enjoy multiplayer gaming Steam is pretty much a requirement nowadays. Even indie games rely on Steam to provide the servers. Heck, even F2P games are moving into Steam now (some are exclusive to Steam, like Loadout and Gunz 2).
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CarrionCrow: If you don't vote for the Jack Keane Dominion, you're a fool.
Jack Keane FOREVER!
Post edited March 13, 2014 by Neobr10
Posted March 13, 2014
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KILLA-CONNI: I think everyone who buys at GOG cares about DRM-free. I mean that's GOG main thing which distinguishes it from other digital resellers.

anip
There seems to be a lot of different shades of "caring" about DRM-free. For me and others like me, it means that DRM-ed games are non-existent. There are others that have no problem getting it elsewhere DRM-ed if it's not available DRM-free. And recent events revealed that there are GOG users that don't care about DRM-free at all and are here for other reasons, primarily for the better deal or because GOG carries titles they can't get elsewhere.


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KILLA-CONNI: snip

Isn't that the same thing? I believe we all want "getting DRM-free out of the corner of niche" which means we'd "be happy if they just got every game" we're "interested in" which means DRM-free...

snip.
It seems to be one those days for me, so I here I go - please go back and read my post again, because I'm pretty certain that the way I expressed myself does not make it the same thing.
As for the part I highlighted - see the first part of my reply.

To summarise, if we all care and want DRM-free, then we shouldn't be such a niche audience (as Messi_is_Messiah claims that we are), should we now?
Posted March 13, 2014
You gog guys are awesome.
DRM free, decent fair price, extras and good service are why I keep buying from here.
Posted March 13, 2014
Thanks for the change back to your core values! As a European citizen I appreciate the one world - one price policy and as a gamer I appreciate the no DRM policy, so sticking with both values is a great community service.

Kudos for having the guts to turn back on your decision and for handling this Issue with so much care for your customers!
Posted March 13, 2014
Hope my fellow players do put their money where their mouth was: GoG recanted on the whole regional pricing as much as possible, so, you would expect a good response from those that criticed it.


If instead, they reward Steam and other DRM minded companies with more and more purchases, then the whole clamoring would have been just a charade.. and such a shame if that turns out to be the case.


In any case, thanks GoG!
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: Sorry, indefinite pronoun. I mean the regulations are excessive. If it's advertised in $ and the price in the shop is correct, including the VAT, that should be more than enough. On the rare occasion where I'm buying something which is in Euro, I don't really get an help, because there isn't really any good way of doing it. I'm not sure how this regulation does anything other than represent a pain for compliance.

My main complaint is buying something and not knowing how much it costs until I checkout, I'm guessing that the real reason for this rule is to hide to rather exorbitant amount of tax that's being paid. Which appears to be between two and three times as much as I pay.
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HypersomniacLive: Maybe I wasn't clear in my earlier post. The regulation does not require for the price to be displayed in EURO, it can be in any currency so long as it's the final price the end-user customer is going to pay.

When we buy something in USD, we also don't know how much this is in EURO until we check our bank/ balance or the credit card statement is issued. Of course knowing the daily conversion rates of your bank/ credit card issuer helps you calculate the amount at the moment of purchase (that's how I usually do it).

The rule does not try to hide the taxes, in B2C the VAT percentage is known to the end-user customer (or at least it's their responsibility to know it) and they can deduct it from the final price, if the exact amount is not clearly displayed on their receipt.
The reason for VAT to be already included is that it's always applied to B2C (for businesses and customers) located in the EU) and not doing so is considered false or misleading advertising (or something along these lines).
Right, but if the customer is responsible for knowing how much the tax is, how does it make any sense at all to mandate that international companies advertise the price including VAT? In cases like this it makes it very difficult for GOG to have a reasonable advertising policy and comply with the regulations.

Then again, this might just be something that I'm not going to understand, things can be very different in the EU than in the US.
Posted March 13, 2014
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of DRM, I will fear no regional pricing: for thou art with me GOG. Thy service and thy staff, they comfort me.
Posted March 13, 2014
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Ridye: ... If instead, they reward Steam and other DRM minded companies with more and more purchases, then the whole clamoring would have been just a charade.. and such a shame if that turns out to be the case. ...
So far if you read the comments, many people have already bought or will buy at GOG soon. And even pricewise there is no incentive to go to Steam. So I hope GOG will now have record sales.
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: Right, but if the customer is responsible for knowing how much the tax is, how does it make any sense at all to mandate that international companies advertise the price including VAT? In cases like this it makes it very difficult for GOG to have a reasonable advertising policy and comply with the regulations.

Then again, this might just be something that I'm not going to understand, things can be very different in the EU than in the US.
European law here tends to be written for the convenience of the average customer, who only really cares about how much they're going to be charged. They're responsible for knowing the tax percentage if they care to know how much tax they're paying, but the average Joe in the street only cares how much they need to fork over for the goods. Many people I know would have trouble recalling what the current VAT rate in the UK is, because it's just a part of the overall price we don't really need to know when making day-to-day purchases (that said, it's also itemized on the purchase receipt for those who want to know.) Many don't even know that it can vary between different categories of goods, and where those lines are drawn (for example Books are exempt from VAT in the UK.)

The easiest way to comply with the regulations is to know where the customer is located, and show them the appropriate price depending on that. Obviously that's far easier when you're dealing with physical goods as you know where you're shipping them to.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by mthomason
Posted March 13, 2014
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Neobr10: I agree with you there. The "true gamer" requirement was a poor choice of words. However, i think that what he said about multiplayer gaming is accurate for the most part. For people who enjoy multiplayer gaming Steam is pretty much a requirement nowadays. Even indie games rely on Steam to provide the servers. Heck, even F2P games are moving into Steam now (some are exclusive to Steam, like Loadout and Gunz 2).
Yes, that does seem to be the predominant trend at the moment. I expect that providing a toolkit to developers helps spread the adoption as well. Similar to how a lot of developers use Google or Amazon toolkits in their applications - a lot of the framework stuff is done for you, and you have a ready environment for your product to integrate into.

Sorry for my somewhat high dudgeon in this matter, I do tend to get into a snit at times. Glad to see reasonable discourse is continuing in spite of that. :)
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: Right, but if the customer is responsible for knowing how much the tax is, how does it make any sense at all to mandate that international companies advertise the price including VAT? In cases like this it makes it very difficult for GOG to have a reasonable advertising policy and comply with the regulations.

Then again, this might just be something that I'm not going to understand, things can be very different in the EU than in the US.
I'm having a bit of trouble myself understanding what is confusing you. Then again it might be that I'm accustomed to the concept and regulations of VAT and you're not.

So, how does advertising work in the US? Are prices presented to end-user customers before any sale taxes are applied?


EDIT: I hope that the way mthomason explained it helps.


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awalterj: Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of DRM, I will fear no regional pricing: for thou art with me GOG. Thy service and thy staff, they comfort me.
Good one! :-)
Post edited March 13, 2014 by HypersomniacLive
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: Right, but if the customer is responsible for knowing how much the tax is, how does it make any sense at all to mandate that international companies advertise the price including VAT? In cases like this it makes it very difficult for GOG to have a reasonable advertising policy and comply with the regulations.

Then again, this might just be something that I'm not going to understand, things can be very different in the EU than in the US.
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HypersomniacLive: I'm having a bit of trouble myself understanding what is confusing you. Then again it might be that I'm accustomed to the concept and regulations of VAT and you're not.

So, how does advertising work in the US? Are prices presented to end-user customers before any sale taxes are applied?
Yes :)

This also applies to shelf prices as the tax is added (in Florida anyways) during the sale.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by JudasIscariot
Posted March 13, 2014
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HypersomniacLive: I'm having a bit of trouble myself understanding what is confusing you. Then again it might be that I'm accustomed to the concept and regulations of VAT and you're not.

So, how does advertising work in the US? Are prices presented to end-user customers before any sale taxes are applied?
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JudasIscariot: Yes :)

This also applies to shelf prices as the tax is added (in Florida anyways) during the sale.
Right, AFAIK, every state with a sales tax works like that. Occasionally a shop will include the tax in the price, but that's rare and usually just vendors that are operating without a cash register so that they can avoid having to make change.

And technically we're supposed to pay a use tax on anything we buy here, but because GOG isn't required to collect, remit or report that, I doubt anybody pays.

Around here, I'm not even sure how I would go about paying it, and AFAIK, the state doesn't even enforce it. I've never heard of anybody being fined or sued over it.
Posted March 13, 2014
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JudasIscariot: Yes :)

This also applies to shelf prices as the tax is added (in Florida anyways) during the sale.
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hedwards: Right, AFAIK, every state with a sales tax works like that. Occasionally a shop will include the tax in the price, but that's rare and usually just vendors that are operating without a cash register so that they can avoid having to make change.

And technically we're supposed to pay a use tax on anything we buy here, but because GOG isn't required to collect, remit or report that, I doubt anybody pays.

Around here, I'm not even sure how I would go about paying it, and AFAIK, the state doesn't even enforce it. I've never heard of anybody being fined or sued over it.
Interesting. Advertising prices without VAT in EU is not allowed since VAT is an integral part of the price and has to be paid for every product and service. There are though some exceptions, especially for health care and small companies (a.k.a. one person companies) and such that don't have enough income as specified in the regulations regarding to VAT. They are freed off the obligation to pay VAT. Not paying VAT when applicable is a serious case of tax evasion in EU.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by Matruchus
Posted March 13, 2014
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hedwards: Right, AFAIK, every state with a sales tax works like that. Occasionally a shop will include the tax in the price, but that's rare and usually just vendors that are operating without a cash register so that they can avoid having to make change.

And technically we're supposed to pay a use tax on anything we buy here, but because GOG isn't required to collect, remit or report that, I doubt anybody pays.

Around here, I'm not even sure how I would go about paying it, and AFAIK, the state doesn't even enforce it. I've never heard of anybody being fined or sued over it.
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Matruchus: Interesting. Advertising prices without VAT in EU is not allowed since it is an integral part of the price and has to be paid for every product and service. There are though some exceptions, especially for health care and small companies (a.k.a. one person companies) and such. Not paying VAT when applicable is a serious case of tax evasion.
I like that idea, I just think that when it comes to international companies, it's a bit silly to require the advertisements and prices to include VAT when the adverts may or may not be going out to people that are required to pay the tax. For local ads in papers and such being displayed in the EU that makes sense, but for ads that may or may not be so well targeted, it would seem to me to cause a lot of unintended consequences.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionGetting back to our roots(1418 posts)(1418 posts)
(1418 posts)