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General discussionGetting back to our roots(1418 posts)(1418 posts)
(1418 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 11, 2014
Hey, GOGgers,

We're not perfect, we're exploring new frontiers, and we make mistakes. We thought DRM-Free was so important that you'd prefer we bring you more DRM-Free games and Fair Price was less critical and that it could be sacrificed in some cases. The last two week's worth of comments in our forums (nearly 10k!), show that's not the case. We didn’t listen and we let you down. We shouldn't sacrifice one of our core values in an attempt to advance another. We feel bad about that, and we're sorry. Us being sorry is not of much use to you, so let’s talk about how we will fix it.

One: DRM-free forever. Abandoning fixed regional pricing means it will probably take longer to get some games, but you've made it clear that sacrificing fair pricing for more DRM-free games isn't acceptable.

Two: We will adamantly continue to fight for games with flat worldwide pricing. If that fails and we are required to have regional prices, we will make up the difference for you out of our own pockets. For now it will be with $5.99 and $9.99 game codes. In a couple of months, once we have such functionality implemented, we will give you store credit instead, which then you will be able to use towards any purchase and cover the price of it in full or partially. Effectively gamers from all around the world will be able to benefit from the US prices.

This will apply to every single game where we do not have flat pricing, such as Age of Wonders 3 (full details here), Divinity: Original Sin, and The Witcher 3. If you remember the Fair Price Package for The Witcher 2, this will be exactly the same.

Three: We still intend to introduce the pricing in local currencies. Let us explain why we want to do it and how we want to make it fair for everyone. From the very beginning our intention was to make things easier for users whose credit cards/payment systems are not natively in USD. The advantages are simple because the price is more understandable and easier to relate to. There would be no exchange rates involved, no transaction fees, and no other hidden charges. However after reading your comments, we realized we have taken an important element away: the choice. In order to fix this, we'll offer the option of paying in the local currency or the equivalent in USD. This way, how you pay is always your choice.

Four: You are what matters, and we will be sure to involve you all more in what we're doing and why we're doing it. Let's start by meeting you at GDC - we’d like to invite you to meet us face-to-face Monday the 17th at GDC. Obviously, not all of you can come to San Francisco, so we want to invite all of you to an online event with us early in April to ask us whatever you would like. More details soon.

The bottom line is simple: there may be companies that won't work with us (although we will work hard to convince the most stubborn ones ;). Yes, it means we might miss out on some games, but at the same time GOG.com will remain true to its values and will keep on offering you the best of DRM-free gaming with Fair Prices.

Once again thank you for caring so much about GOG.com. We will work hard not to disappoint you again.

--Marcin "iWi" Iwinski & Guillaume "TheFrenchMonk" Rambourg
Posted March 13, 2014
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Messi_is_Messiah: The simple fact is, if you're a pc "gamer" (especially if you enjoy modern multiplayer games) you pretty much HAVE to have a steam account.
Got real numbers? Otherwise this assertion isn't worth the paper it's wiped on.

I'm a lifelong gamer (as well as game creator), with over 800 games in my PC library at the moment. And I've never touched Steam, and likely never shall. If anyone is a "niche", it's the Steam fanbois. Anyone can use GOG without being forced to huddle together with others of their ilk, reinforcing each other in their little bubble of isolation.

Do try to avoid the "presumption of majority" fallacy. You'll live a much happier life once you realise that most of the world isn't just like you. It isn't just like anyone.
Posted March 13, 2014
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Messi_is_Messiah: The simple fact is, if you're a pc "gamer" (especially if you enjoy modern multiplayer games) you pretty much HAVE to have a steam account.
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IAmSinistar: Got real numbers? Otherwise this assertion isn't worth the paper it's wiped on.

I'm a lifelong gamer (as well as game creator), with over 800 games in my PC library at the moment. And I've never touched Steam, and likely never shall. If anyone is a "niche", it's the Steam fanbois. Anyone can use GOG without being forced to huddle together with others of their ilk, reinforcing each other in their little bubble of isolation.

Do try to avoid the "presumption of majority" fallacy. You'll live a much happier life once you realise that most of the world isn't just like you. It isn't just like anyone.
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2011/0228/technology-gabe-newell-videogames-valve-online-mayhem.html

I'm not sure if you're denying Steam's majority or it being required (the latter IS a dubious claim), but his (and my) presumption of majority is based on Steam holding an actual majority on digital sales. Not saying that's good, or that Steam fanbois are not a thing (they definitely are), but your implication of fallacy is just false.
Posted March 13, 2014
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Messi_is_Messiah: The simple fact is, if you're a pc "gamer" (especially if you enjoy modern multiplayer games) you pretty much HAVE to have a steam account.
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IAmSinistar: If anyone is a "niche", it's the Steam fanbois. Anyone can use GOG without being forced to huddle together with others of their ilk, reinforcing each other in their little bubble of isolation.
Messiah is right about MP games. Almost every MP game I play uses Steam. Let it be Payday, DayZ, Left 4 Dead, Counter-Strike (okay, those are both from Valve), Red Orchestra, Company of Heroes and those are only the ones I play.

I don't think you need numbers to find out that Steam's no niche compared to GOG. But if you want some:
[...]CD Projekt RED’s The Witcher 2, which sold 40,000 copies through GOG.com in its first three months. Valve’s much larger Steam platform sold 200,000 in the same time frame[...]
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/05/30/good-old-games-gog-com-and-the-drm-free-revolution/]
Posted March 13, 2014
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Messi_is_Messiah: I did read your whole post, it wasn't that long :p I however missed where you said gog users (like yourself). So I suppose that right there implied GOGers like you, and not necessarily the entire GOG user base, so my bad.

I still argue that GOG's main target audience is ANY pc gamer, and they get the DRM free niche audience as a bonus. It would be interesting to take a poll and see what percent of GOGers also use a steam account.

For gamers like me who have both, you have to admit that they are direct competitors. Any time they carry the same game that I want, I have to choose which one to buy from. The difference between me and most other gamers though is I try to always buy from GOG, and I try to get all my steamworks keys from gamersgate, because the last thing I want is to support steam's monopoly!

oh and the "you HAVE to have steam" is mostly if you play modern MP games, like I said in my previous post.

Also, if you have any interest in AAA modern games, you probably need steam, but it seems like gog wants to change that when they tried to introduce regional pricing.
So, if I understand you correctly, you don't actually care about DRM-free so long as you get to play the games you want, hence you just want to turn GOG into a Steam alternative because you need alternatives in order to not... support Steam's monopoly?
But you do support it - it doesn't matter where you buy your Steam keys from, the moment you activate them and use their platform you're counted to their statistics that demonstrate that they do monopolise the PC gaming scene and people love it.

I have no delusions that a good number of GOG users have and actively use a Steam account. That doesn't negate the fact that GOG primarily caters to us, because we're the only ones that wouldn't run to Steam if/ when GOG doesn't manage to satisfy us. I'm happy that GOG's efforts are towards getting DRM-free out of the corner of niche. You'd be happy if they just got every game you're interested in, regardless of conditions and price.
Well, we can always agree to disagree.

And they still introduced regional pricing and no, they're not losing money on every regionally priced sale - they make a much smaller profit in some cases (which are not the majority of their user base), break even in even less cases and make full profit on purchases from the majority of their user base. Overall, that leaves them in the black and with more profit than not doing it at all and most likely with more than what they'd be doing if they didn't make the adjustments.
Do you think that they adopted this new model because sales were doing great? Or do you think that they would have made this compromise without running their P/L numbers that showed them that they will still grow?
Posted March 13, 2014
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Messi_is_Messiah: I don't know, potentially missing out on a lot of drm free games because we opted out of regional prices, still really sucks. Also GOG LOSING MONEY on every regional priced unit sold really sucks. It feels like GOG is going to bend over and break their back for us, but I never wanted that, I just wanted more GOG games.
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KILLA-CONNI: It feels the same to me and I hope my feeling's wrong. Do you know for a fact that they lose money? Or do they just make minimum profit?
If they are making a loss on some games, or even minimum profit, then GoG have even more reason to argue for fair pricing with the publishers, or better yet to tell said publishers they can't sell that game here because it isn't economically viable for them.

That's GoG's half of the fight for fair pricing.

Our half is to then tell those same publishers we're not buying that game unless it gets released on GoG.

That fight just doesn't work if either side changes their position. As long as the publishers are able to sell us the game, the end result is the same - zero pressure on the publisher to change.

It's a supply chain, so we have more ability to directly affect the next step along (GoG) than we do the other end (Publishers). In turn, GoG have more leverage with the publishers than any of us do, when they negotiate the exact terms of doing business with those publishers.

However, if we then go buy a game elsewhere because it isn't on GoG, that sends the wrong message to the publisher altogether. Lets face it, most of us aren't going to turn away from that huge blockbuster we've been waiting all year for, it'd be unrealistic to ask that, but we can put as much business as possible GoG's way and hold off buying some of the games that don't appear here. GoG have put their neck out for us, we should return that favor.

We have to work together - the customer and the retailer - to put pressure on those publishers to stop price fixing and unfair global trading constraints, just as we have to work together to get those games DRM-Free. Some of us only care about one or the other - personally, I care more about fair global trading at a single base (pre-taxes) price than I do about getting DRM-Free games. However, our collective bargaining power is far more if we work together than it is if we just selfishly cast one of those away for the sake of the other. I'm more than willing to stand up for DRM-Free games if that means getting more support for a single fair price too.

If we sacrifice one for the sake of the other, we're giving in to publisher's "divide and conquer" techniques. They'll know they won one battle, and have less rebellious customers left to defeat.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by mthomason
Posted March 13, 2014
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HypersomniacLive: So, if I understand you correctly, you don't actually care about DRM-free so long as you get to play the games you want, hence you just want to turn GOG into a Steam alternative because you need alternatives in order to not... support Steam's monopoly?
I think everyone who buys at GOG cares about DRM-free. I mean that's GOG main thing which distinguishes it from other digital resellers.
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HypersomniacLive: I'm happy that GOG's efforts are towards getting DRM-free out of the corner of niche. You'd be happy if they just got every game you're interested in, regardless of conditions and price.
Isn't that the same thing? I believe we all want "getting DRM-free out of the corner of niche" which means we'd "be happy if they just got every game" we're "interested in" which means DRM-free...

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mthomason: Lets face it, most of us aren't going to turn away from that huge blockbuster we've been waiting all year for, it'd be unrealistic to ask that, but we can put as much business as possible GoG's way and hold off buying some of the games that don't appear here. GoG have put their neck out for us, we should return that favor.
Signed.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by KILLA-CONNI
Posted March 13, 2014
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HypersomniacLive: So, if I understand you correctly, you don't actually care about DRM-free so long as you get to play the games you want, hence you just want to turn GOG into a Steam alternative because you need alternatives in order to not... support Steam's monopoly?
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KILLA-CONNI: I think everyone who buys at GOG cares about DRM-free. I mean that's GOG main thing which distinguishes it from other digital resellers.
I'd bet there are more than a few who merely treats it as yet another store where prices may at times be chaper than elsewhere, and don't care about "core values" at all.
Posted March 13, 2014
Hello,

So as i see it, nothing has changed at all. We have to pay in our local currencies the inflated dollar equivalent. Age of Wonders 3 is 39.99 Euros exactly as before. Oh i will get a gift code for some game on the shop. That is not the same as a one world one price politic. This is just marketing blubber, you did not go back to a fair price politic but try to appease the masses with some free stuff.

I don't get why all those people are falling for it.

Have a nice day
Posted March 13, 2014
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Aaluran: I'm not sure if you're denying Steam's majority or it being required (the latter IS a dubious claim), but his (and my) presumption of majority is based on Steam holding an actual majority on digital sales. Not saying that's good, or that Steam fanbois are not a thing (they definitely are), but your implication of fallacy is just false.
It is the requirement of Steam to be a "true" gamer that I balk at. It's the same kind of almost-religious arrogance I hear from gamers of every stripe ("real gamers play on Xbox", "proper gamers don't play casual games", etc). The "presumption of majority" fallacy is this as well, the immature conceit that comes from living in a pocket reality and mistaking it for the world at large.

If Steam has the most digital sales, then it is the market leader in that regard (though I expect making up so many of the bundle offerings doesn't hurt the numbers either). You at least provided statistics, which is what I asked for. My objection in this regard was the poster simply putting something out there as a bald fact without any corroboration, as well as then claiming this market leadership was what determined the badge of an authentic gamer.
Post edited March 13, 2014 by IAmSinistar
Posted March 13, 2014
Much better GOG. Of course actions will redeem You (or not), not words...
So we will see; though You got my good will back.
Posted March 13, 2014
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KILLA-CONNI: ... http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/05/30/good-old-games-gog-com-and-the-drm-free-revolution/]
From the article:

"...One factor in GOG.com’s success is the relatively small team of just 45 employees, making it ”surprisingly easy to make most of our decisions: we think about what we would like a digital distribution store to do, and then try to do that.”

Mostly, however, Rambourg thinks the company’s success boils down to something simple: customer service.

“We treat our gamers like humans,” he says, “not criminals—and I think this is why our community is so active and faithful.”

Like any relationship, fostering trust between a business and its customers is crucial, and CD Projekt and GOG.com have figured out how to cultivate trust and respect with a tough crowd: gamers. The video game industry should take note. Abandoning DRM may sound risky, but abandoning your customer base is a far greater threat to the bottom line. If anything, CD Projekt and GOG.com have illustrated how important service is to the video game industry, and how adding value and treating customers with respect can pay dividends."

I have to admit that this is also my impression even after the recent turmoils and partly even because of everything. Great deals, working products, easy to use - that are the core values (DRM free, more flat than elsewhere prices, service).

Now what I hope for in the future is a better downloader/updater and that publishers by themselves stop with the $1=1€ crap or that GOG nevertheless gets many good games where they can give as a bonus nice store credit. I will do my best and see that GOG will grow this year by buying many good games from here for sure.
Posted March 13, 2014
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HypersomniacLive: Does GOG really need to challenge Steam? I never regarded GOG as a direct competitor or challenger of Steam, nor did I ever wish it would. I want GOG to grow and succeed not to challenge (or thread) Steam's business, but to keep providing what's important and satisfying to me and others like me.
IMHO, it's rather highly unlikely that GOG users like myself (DRM-free proponents) would be ever attracted by Steam, no matter the games selection, prices or whatever else.

GOG and Steam can co-exist just fine as, in my eyes, they basically cater to different audiences.

And if you carefully read this announcement, GOG has not abandoned regional pricing, they only made some adjustment that make the majority of their objecting customers more comfortable and happy.
The big publishers I suspect you have in mind won't come to GOG any time soon, primarily because of DRM-free and not regional pricing.
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Messi_is_Messiah: Whether you like it or not, of course steam and GOG are big competitors! Steam being the biggest digital pc game distributor in the world, and GOG quickly emerging as one of the leading alternatives! In the end, they are both selling the same type of product, the same way VONS and Trader Joes are competitors (U.S. residents should understand this at least) They are both grocery stores with a different way of doing things.

Also, I have to disagree with your assertion that most gogers don't use steam. The simple fact is, if you're a pc "gamer" (especially if you enjoy modern multiplayer games) you pretty much HAVE to have a steam account. The vast majority of (non MMO) multiplayer games use steamworks.

They both cater to the same audience- PC Gamers, but gog also has a DRM free niche audience as well.
Well, I'm not a huge fan of convenient labels, and if I have to like multiplayer games to be one step closer to true "gamer" status, I'd just as soon not. It's always been my experience that the enjoyment of blasting the digital avatars of morons into itty bitty crimson-colored pixel bits doesn't balance out the nausea and contempt generated by actually playing a game with them. Will stick with current plans of expanding my GOG singleplayer library of titles instead.
Posted March 13, 2014
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Trilarion: They think they can divide the world and play one part off gainst another.
Oh, yeah, right, because the world is not divided, is it?

Hehe, and i thought countries still existed. How naive of me. So, who are you voting for president of the world at the next election?
Posted March 13, 2014
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Trilarion: They think they can divide the world and play one part off gainst another.
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Neobr10: Oh, yeah, right, because the world is not divided, is it?

Hehe, and i thought countries still existed. How naive of me. So, who are you voting for president of the world at the next election?
If you don't vote for the Jack Keane Dominion, you're a fool.
Posted March 13, 2014
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torqual76: Hello,

So as i see it, nothing has changed at all. We have to pay in our local currencies the inflated dollar equivalent. Age of Wonders 3 is 39.99 Euros exactly as before. Oh i will get a gift code for some game on the shop. That is not the same as a one world one price politic. This is just marketing blubber, you did not go back to a fair price politic but try to appease the masses with some free stuff.

I don't get why all those people are falling for it.

Have a nice day
It's a compromise. And once you buy more than a single game you'll value store credit too. The compensation is now much better. We pay more then in the US, but there is VAT and we get store credit. I personally fall for it and regard it as a fair deal. Actually considering VAT the one price politics has been a bit unfair in the past. Surely you'll agree about that?

And my guess is that the flatness of the price of AoW3 will increase the older the game gets. At some point it will be $15 everywhere, I guess. The publisher will see reason and by buying at GOG we can increase GOG's negotiation power because they actually more than anyone else (Steam, Origin, ... you name them) care about fair pricing. At least now.

They gained completely my trust again and I feel actually respected and not appeased. However I'll watch if indeed the price of AoW3 becomes more flat with time. But if not I would more curse the publisher now, because I know that it's not GOG's fault. GOG does everything they can by giving such generous compensation.

If you don't like it and don't fall for it you could as well buy at Steam or at retail but the offers will be even worse there. For your location buying here is the best possible decision.
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Trilarion: They think they can divide the world and play one part off gainst another.
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Neobr10: Oh, yeah, right, because the world is not divided, is it?
...
I had the feeling this customer base here was much much less divided before the great introduction of regional prices and the introduction of the idea that regional pricing and appearance of games could be linked. Now the division is much bigger and better visible and it's not about countries or politics but simply about different prices.

What's your impression? Was the community already as divided before?
Post edited March 13, 2014 by Trilarion
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionGetting back to our roots(1418 posts)(1418 posts)
(1418 posts)