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General discussionGames lost to time due to DRM(49 posts)(49 posts)
(49 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted August 17, 2018
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idbeholdME: It has DRM? My cousin got You Are Empty from a gaming magazine DVD and IIRC, he installed it on a computer without internet and it ran fine. He finished the game without problems.
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LootHunter: Not all DRM require Internet. Some require DVD in DVD drive. And if that DVD is damaged (too scratched for example) or you simply lost it, game stops working.
Well that is a disc check, but if you had the disc, you would be able to play normally (or just download no DVD patch/crack). I wouldn't consider that "lost due to DRM". More like "lost due to improper disc handling".
Posted August 17, 2018
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LootHunter: Not all DRM require Internet. Some require DVD in DVD drive. And if that DVD is damaged (too scratched for example) or you simply lost it, game stops working.
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kohlrak: Presumably, though, this is your fault, not the DRM.
Tell that to people, who had disc unexpectedly shuttered in the drive. Or DRM simply refusing to see the disc in a new drive or in a new OS.
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kohlrak: Mounting systems are also legal and common, now, but i'm not sure about ISO files that you make yourself. I think you might be able to legally make a backup copy (at least in the US, under DMCA)
You can make a backup copy,sure. But it doesn't necessarily will work and acknowledge a disk image a genuen disk. As I've mentioned earlier some DVD based DRM could see disk not even in all drives or OSs.
Post edited August 17, 2018 by LootHunter
Posted August 17, 2018
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kohlrak: So somsone did crack it, then. I've found alot of always-online DRM actually breaks pretty easily. Final Fantasy games on android have always online DRM, but it only checks if you have an internet connection, not that it actually works, which i found to be really strange. Some just check for return codes, so breaking the DRM of these games are usually easy if all the content is available offline and it only, basically, phones home.
Not for the last update of that port (1.4), but the 1.2 was cracked... It's still not like a drm-free version, you don't know if the cracked version is clean of spyware of something like that.
Posted August 17, 2018
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timppu: Ah yes, I should have expected you come into this discussion to preach to us that we should just accept DRM and not care if games will permanently die.
Uh huh, I totally said that. Stopped reading right there.
Posted August 17, 2018
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kohlrak: Presumably, though, this is your fault, not the DRM.
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LootHunter: Tell that to people, who had disc unexpectedly shuttered in the drive. Or DRM simply refusing to see the disc in a new drive or in a new OS.
I have, already, and not just for DRM. That's the risk you play with disks. As for new drive or OS, that's actually a valid complaint.
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kohlrak: Mounting systems are also legal and common, now, but i'm not sure about ISO files that you make yourself. I think you might be able to legally make a backup copy (at least in the US, under DMCA)
You can make a backup copy,sure. But it doesn't necessarily will work and acknowledge a disk image a genuen disk. As I've mentioned earlier some DVD based DRM could see disk not even in all drives or OSs.
I've had this problem with gamecube games and things for consoles, but not cd games. Could you provide some examples? I'm not entirely doubting you, but i'm thinking it's like the "new drive" thing above, and could actually easily be fixed with proper mounting software. Not ideal, but still not something that a normie couldn't pull off.

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kohlrak: So somsone did crack it, then. I've found alot of always-online DRM actually breaks pretty easily. Final Fantasy games on android have always online DRM, but it only checks if you have an internet connection, not that it actually works, which i found to be really strange. Some just check for return codes, so breaking the DRM of these games are usually easy if all the content is available offline and it only, basically, phones home.
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LiefLayer: Not for the last update of that port (1.4), but the 1.2 was cracked... It's still not like a drm-free version, you don't know if the cracked version is clean of spyware of something like that.
True, but your normies will blame that it's not winblows, therefore phoey on you. For all intents and purposes, this is a great example, but i'm trying to make a strong case that normies won't be able to easily dismiss (to themselves). At risk of wishing ill will, i'd love to see this happen to something big but not ported to consoles, especially one of these VR games that require that expensive equipment. I'm thinking i may have to settle for something like Dead by Daylight when it finally closes, since that's a pretty big game, even if it's multiplayer exclusive. At least then I could say "why didn't they just decentralize the servers?"
Posted August 17, 2018
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kohlrak: I'm focused on scenarios where something simply disappears from steam or origin, basically, and people with legit copies are told they're out of luck, even if it has single player elements. Particulary games that actually do work when pirated, because it proves then that shutting down the game was absolutely unnecessary as keeping the game running cost the company absolutely nothing other than sales of a sequel or something.
Well, there was a "free" version of the game called Psy-Ops: The Mindgate Conspiracy. And I use quote marks, because in reality the game was making money through online ads, shown during the game. However, several years ago servers that were generating that ads went down. So if you will download and install that "free" version (there are sites that legally host it), you won't be able to play, unless use No-CD crack (it replaces .exe file, so it works for both CD and "free" versions).
Does that count?
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LootHunter: Tell that to people, who had disc unexpectedly shuttered in the drive.
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kohlrak: I have, already, and not just for DRM. That's the risk you play with disks.
And how would you exactly play without disk? If DRM prevents that?
Post edited August 17, 2018 by LootHunter
Posted August 17, 2018
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kohlrak: I'm focused on scenarios where something simply disappears from steam or origin, basically, and people with legit copies are told they're out of luck, even if it has single player elements. Particulary games that actually do work when pirated, because it proves then that shutting down the game was absolutely unnecessary as keeping the game running cost the company absolutely nothing other than sales of a sequel or something.
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LootHunter: Well, there was a "free" version of the game called Psy-Ops: The Mindgate Conspiracy. And I use quote marks, because in reality the game was making money through online ads, shown during the game. However, several years ago servers that were generating that ads went down. So if you will download and install that "free" version (there are sites that legally host it), you won't be able to play, unless use No-CD crack (it replaces .exe file, so it works for both CD and "free" versions).
Does that count?
Yeah, but it's available on disk form for consoles as well. Normies will retort "but, that's what you get for playing the ad-supported version, nub."

We need cases like "EA disabled sims 5, a single player game, to force people to buy the updated sims 6," ideally, or at least "steam exclusive single player game with loads of DLC removed from computers, because company got tired of supporting it." The point is to have examples to point to and say, "This is why we shoudln't support DRM." We need cases like this.
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kohlrak: I have, already, and not just for DRM. That's the risk you play with disks.
And how would you exactly play without disk? If DRM prevents that?
You wouldn't, but this is an example of you mishandling your product, not the DRM being malicious. Depending on where the scratches are, you could theoretically disable the DRM altogether, too. The DRM's going to fail if the data is corrupted, which is also very likely to prevent the game from working properly without the DRM even being there, as well. How bad the effects depends on what data is corrupted: was the exception handler itself busted (meaning you won't likely see the problem unless the game is particularly buggy), or was it the header of the .exe file, thus the game completely can't work, even if it didn't have DRM? Disks need respect.
Posted August 17, 2018
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LootHunter: Not all DRM require Internet. Some require DVD in DVD drive. And if that DVD is damaged (too scratched for example) or you simply lost it, game stops working.
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idbeholdME: Well that is a disc check, but if you had the disc, you would be able to play normally (or just download no DVD patch/crack). I wouldn't consider that "lost due to DRM". More like "lost due to improper disc handling".
In the release of You Are Empty that I have, retail, it has a disc check. This doesn't work on win 10, and there is no nocd crack available. This is DRM and it prevents me from using my product. This the game is lost to me because of DRM. DRM includes all forms of copy protection, denuvo, online activation, disc check, manual code wheel etc. That are in place to stop you copying or downloading a game illegally. "lost due to improper handling" has nothing to do with this, the safedisc drivers were removed from windows 10, I did not have a hand in that, the only workaround legally is to install the drivers for this DRM manually on my machine, putting my machine at risk, hence the software is lost due to DRM.
Posted August 17, 2018
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nightcraw1er.488: In the release of You Are Empty that I have, retail, it has a disc check. This doesn't work on win 10, and there is no nocd crack available.
Are you sure about that? I've found one pretty easily.
Posted August 18, 2018
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nightcraw1er.488: In the release of You Are Empty that I have, retail, it has a disc check. This doesn't work on win 10, and there is no nocd crack available.
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ariaspi: Are you sure about that? I've found one pretty easily.
Was 2-3 years back when I was imaging my collection, don't remember specifics, but at the time what was available didn't work, or was flagged by too many different software as dangerous. If I get the chance I will look again over the next few days. You do have to be very careful about anything downloaded from the net, cracks especially, don't want the propagating into the backup systems.
Posted August 18, 2018
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nightcraw1er.488: Was 2-3 years back when I was imaging my collection, don't remember specifics, but at the time what was available didn't work, or was flagged by too many different software as dangerous. If I get the chance I will look again over the next few days. You do have to be very careful about anything downloaded from the net, cracks especially, don't want the propagating into the backup systems.
Yes, it was detected by many antivirus engines on virustotal, but many of them are just junk. I actually trust only Kaspersky, BitDefender, ESET-NOD32 and Malwarebytes. And in this case only BitDefender flagged the file as a hack tool.

To a lesser extent I trust Avira, Avast, AVG, F-Prot, F-Secure, Microsoft, Comodo, ClamAV, Panda and maybe Sophos and ZoneAlarm.

Symantec/Norton, McAfee and TrendMicro, I see them as malware in themselves, and the rest are just "no-names".

So this is how I usually interpret the virustotal results, and the file was from that nocd site that probably anyone knows.
Posted August 18, 2018
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kohlrak: In the past hour, i read about Moonrise and Darkspore. I'm curious if anyone has a list, or wants to build a list, of games that became unplayable because of modern DRM (not because of buggy CD checks).
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timppu: Do you mean unplayable in the sense that no one can play it (even a pirated version from torrentz zitez), or that legit owners can't anymore play their legit copy (without either hunting down a working crack, or replace their legit version with a pirated version)?

I can't install nor play my legit digital versions of Plants Vs Zombies and Peggle anymore. I recall either upon installation or running it for the first time, it asks me to register with a code (that I have), but the validation fails as the PopCap validation servers are now permanently offline.

I think EA is selling some versions of both games on EA Origin, but at least I couldn't redeem the codes I have there, they are not in the correct format for Origin. Not sure if the Origin versions are the exact same versions anyway.

Another somewhat similar case is... I don't recall if it was the first Rise of Nations, or the sequel Rise of Legends, or both. You can install and play both games... BUT you can't get any much-needed updates for them as the only official way to update both games is using the in-game update functionality, and the game publisher's servers have been offline for many many years already.

So you can still install and play the game(s)... but only in their original buggy format, without fixes. I recall though that one of those games had some fan-made patch where he had gathered the downloaded update files to some kind of simple installer.

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Pheace: I get that. Just brought it up because this *is* what the next generation is growing up on, as shown by the kid example above. The worry of 'desktop' games suffering from this is an aging concept for a world that really is getting more and more used to seeing this happen on a regular basis, and we're likely to see the same thing in the long term more and more online integration being a thing.
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timppu: Ah yes, I should have expected you come into this discussion to preach to us that we should just accept DRM and not care if games will permanently die. You keep telling in other DRM discussions how you wouldn't care even if you lost all your Steam games, you would just buy them all over again on some other service (in case they would even be released at all in some future service).

Would you extend that "laissez-fairez I don't carez" mentality also to e.g. movies and music? You don't care even if people wouldn't be able to listen to music from the 70s or 80s anymore, unless some publisher decided to make a remake of some old song or movie? After all, there are always newer music and movies to hear/see, why should people be able to see some old "classic" movies or hear some Beatles by the original band? Or if you want to see the movie Psycho, there's always the modernized version with new actors in it.

I hope you don't mind if I call you pro-DRM as that is what you clearly are, based on what you keep writing to GOG forums (including your "see how people complain when DRM works"-thread).
EA gave out both Plants Vs Zombies and Peggle with there on the house program rip a admin on wikiepdiea deleted the the page that showed what games EA gave away but Peggle was given at lest 3 times away and plants vs zombies 2 times


then Age of Empires Online is also tricky because it was a F2P anyways so no one spent anything unless you bought ingame stuff it's harder for me say what because those types of games are not a average game, why put money into a game that doesn't have a lot of players or cost more on servers to run? I would considered it more like a facebook game then a normal game because the whole point is the pvp part as well wait days for income and such. unlike a normal game where you don't wait days. and it had a lot of in game purchases you can buy.
Post edited August 18, 2018 by KnightW0lf
Posted August 18, 2018
Is there still a version of Plants and Zombies available that features the King of Pop?
Posted August 18, 2018
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toxicTom: Is there still a version of Plants and Zombies available that features the King of Pop?
all modern games pulled that card unless you have a old version of the game somewhere from before the removal date back in 2010 http://www.ign.com/articles/2010/07/27/michael-jackson-ish-zombie-pulled-from-pvz

``PopCap is endeavoring to update all versions of Plants vs. Zombies, thus removing the MJ lookalike zombie. The iPhone and iPad versions have been updated to replace the dancing zombie with something more generic. Expect the same to happen with PvZ on Xbox Live Arcade. While updating existing the PC versions on PvZ will be a far trickier matter,``

so they don't get sued

so the only way someone could still have it if they have files and versions before 2010 and the update with EA which would be the easiest way
Post edited August 18, 2018 by KnightW0lf
Posted August 18, 2018
I'm not entirely familiar with the whole story because I skipped the PS4 console, but would P.T. count? P.T. was a demo/preview of what was apparently going to be the next Silent Hill game. From what I understand, it was not only removed for download but taken off from machines/accounts who had already downloaded it? That is some Scheme-level "the offline gamers do not get to be reaaaallllllly offline" scumminess right there.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionGames lost to time due to DRM(49 posts)(49 posts)
(49 posts)