drewpants: Selling second hand goods unethical now?
amok: In which sense is G2A, Kinguin et al second hand? The whole point about these keys, if they were second hand, is that they will not work anymore, you know, because they would have been used.
This is a first hand market, where keys have been got in unethical ways. Bee it through BUndles (which is against the ToS to sell on), via give-away (where the givers 99% of the time asks you to not sell the keys) or via credit card fraud. This is why it is an unethical market.
drewpants: Also, just re-read this: amok: "some legitimate users" says it all, in my opinion. It should be all or nothing. As long as it creates a market where whose who are not within the "some" can operate, it needs to be dealt with. It s a bit like saying your just a little bit pregnant or little bit dead.
That makes no sense. You can not be a little bit dead because being dead is a definite state of being that applies to a singular individual.
amok: Indeed, and in this case it applies to G2A. You can not be a "little bit grey" market. Either you are grey, or you are not.
drewpants: Now a market, or a population can and does have varying degrees of criminality, which is not entirely the fault of the existence of a market.
amok: But you can do your best to remove it by removing the conditions for it, or do your best to minimise it. In my oppinipn, there is no single ethical key to be bought on G2A (as there is not a "second hand market" for digital keys, it do not exist) , and therefore the premise it is built upon is flawed. Take it from here what you will.
An used product key is the same as buying a pre-owned game that has never been oped or played, which happens all the time. Technically the re-selling of physical copies is illegal - do you oppose that?
The sale of these goods may mean that the Devs don't get paid, but that's tough really. I don't lose any sleep when I buy a sealed game form eBay, or if I buy a few SNES carts from a yard sale rather than buying emulated versions on the Wii (or whatever those crazy kids play now).
Like I said, ban credit cards if you think it will solve the problem, the service is clearly being abused.
nepundo: The other ones, those who know what's going on and could possibly purchase a key and hurry to download the game before it gets removed from their account, do they really exist? I think those guys would save themselves all the hassle (and money!) and just download a torrent.
richlind33: I think most, if not all, of the people buying from resellers tell themselves that it's OK because they've paid some money to someone. But we all know perfectly well that the resellers don't care if the money goes to the people it should go to. And neither do their customers.
drewpants: That has nothing to do with the selling of games.
Closing down a legal site because an Indie Dev isn't making much in sales just shifts the 'dire need' over to the owners of the business you just closed. Real ethical.
richlind33: Your understanding of law is as bad as your understanding of ethics. Not being illegal is *not* the same thing as being legal. Not at all.
"I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law."
Aristotle
I have openly said that the sale of most second hand goods is considered a grey area by law, however the setting up of G2A is no more illegal than eBay or other such sites. By your thinking charity shops and second hand retailers of all entertainment media should be closed.
I buy second had games from stores and yard sales all the time and would buy a legit unused game code if I knew it had purchased as part of a bundle or otherwise legally and not with a stolen card. I don't feel condemned by that, or intimidated by appeals to authority.
People will always have differing views on the sale of used games etc, but credit card fraud is clearly stealing and wrong without a nasty little grey area. Closing down a publicly used service because of a grey area that courts have debated and allowed the sale of used games, in my opinion, seems like a massive over reaction.
Although, an interesting point of debate with some worthy opponents.
