Just out of interest, exactly how do you define DRM?

ummm... so how do you define DRM.

if it is "The product comes from the producer in that state. No tinkering required.".... it applies to DRM also. If a game comes from the producer with DRM (they tend to do....) and there is no tinkering required (just install and play, and by install I mean the DRM is installed also), then it is not a good definition - in my opinion. It is very vague and not very helpful.

My personal definition is "is any parts of the product which restricts your use of the software after the point of purchase and delivery. This needs to be purposefully built to control its use, and does not includes a dependency of external factors, such as drivers, libraries or hardware (i.e. needing Windows or DirectX is not DRM, neither is needing CD-Rom, a typical GPU or indeed electricity)." (from a [url=http://www.gog.com/forum/general/definition_of_drm_or_of_drmfree/post41)]previous thread)[/url]

"In that state" in reference to the examples I gave. No example I gave came with DRM from the producer.

DRM spans many things, it is an umbrella term. As such, the definition of DRM is the definition of all its sub-catagories.

Even watermarks are DRM, even though they wouldn't fit in your definition. It's far more useful and clear to define what is *not* DRM.

With this definition of DRM you would also consider CD-keys DRM, and GOG sells some games that need those, and you only get one. (thus managing you to a single copy)

Weren't there audio CDs around the mid-2000's that came with copy protection schemes which among other things prevented them of being played in a computer CD-ROM drive ?
Never listened to music on a computer so I couldn't know.

Arghh... damn Sony.

Yes of course CD keys are a form of DRM. You made a claim: examples please.

Yes there were and they were not allowed to use the CD audio logo because of it. This one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/CD-AUDIO_logo.png

So they were not audio CDs and not guaranteed to work with all audio CD players.

Sony made SACD around that time as well, which was a type of DVD with high-definition audio and DRM. But I was referring to actual audio CDs.

3-5 posts down from this post:

http://www.gog.com/forum/general/gog_games_with_serial_numbers/page1

Yes, I know about CD keys/serial numbers for multiplayer, but you were claiming gog.com sells games that *need* those.

None of the games need a unique CD key to run. It is provided if you want to use the multiplayer function, but that is not DRM free.

I said they needed them. A serial key to access *any* part of the game, and restricting you to only 1 client being able to do that at a time by using a unique keys, is a form of DRM, certainly more so than a 'watermark' you just claimed was DRM.

How did the watermark prevent you from running something? Since that's where you're now suddenly drawing a line for DRM?

soooo.... when you said "Games gog.com do not have DRM" that was not quite correct then :)

Anyway, the problem many have here is that there is no definition of DRM. I have mine, and that is the one I work from. According to that one - you can indeed get DRM free games via Steam. To rebut this you will need to show where my definition is wrong, and propose another. If you are not able to do so, then my will stand (for me at least). I have seen people saying "Steam is DRM" and it then boil down to "because Steam!", and it is just not good enough for me.

By the way, you are wrong in that the DRM free games on Steam needs to be authenticated on first run. The day before yeasterday I downloaded A.R.E.S. and copied it straight onto a zip drive. Played it at work during lunch time, no internet connection, no Steam on work computer and no problems at all. And that is DRM free in my books.

Multiplayer on some games sold on gog.com contains DRM.

Who are you arguing with about that? Find someone who cares about multiplayer. Then argue with gog.com

As for watermarks, that's not my claim, that's a pretty common form of DRM. Digital Rights Management, a way to protect the copyright holder and to prevent piracy and unauthorized distribution. How? By checking the watermark thus identifying the source, which is unique to that watermark, to then claim damages for copyright infringement.

Thus providing the copyright holder tools to protect their interests.

In fact, here: http://bit.ly/skxEgH

Enjoy the read.
The definition of DRM is not your opinion or mine, it's pretty clear.

http://bit.ly/skxEgH

And multiplayer isn't the game. It's just some tacked on crap. And if there was a demand for that to be DRM free on gog.com it would be.

It's just that nobody cares about multiplayer for old games.

hehe, clear indeed. Maybe you should read those links you get from google there? and if you use Wikipedias, then indeed Steam have DRM free games.

LOL

Aye, I tested XCOM Ufo Defense and Space Rangers yesterday as a result of the discussion then and both worked fine without a first time play.

And lol @ Yes, Serial key for multiplayer is DRM but multiplayer sucks so no the games that use that don't have DRM

I think that says enough.