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Here is another golden nugget:

"Except it isn't an issue of DRM, it's the fact that the game simply won't function if it's not online."

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=58789&p=1015866&viewfull=1#post1015866
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Atlantico: And the guy two posts after that quote (only 2 inches lower on the screen) provided a link that demonstrates that there is no refund policy, no one has been refunded and if anyone will then it will be at the whim of the company.
Yeah sure, fair enough. All I did was quote him and say a refund is the best they can do in the situation. You don't have to get all militant on me.
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tomimt: I think some people just believe that indie devs are automatically somehow more honorable than big companies are and thus can do no wrong. And David Braben has gathered a quite a bit of hero worship during the years same way as Richard Garriott has for an example (yet another old school dev who is developing a MMO game that is supposedly going to have some kind of off-line mode, but as far I know only thing they've shown thus far of Shroud of the Avatar is MMO stuff.)
Yes, I was so stupid to back this moneygrabbing, sell virtual real estate for real money POS. I should have jumped ship the moment they announced that, but I was otherwise occupied at that time. I also commented on this development:
The avatar seems indeed to have forsaken most of the old virtues: Humility, Justice, Honesty, Honour and Spirituality.
Oh, well, we still have the old games, right here on GOG.
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Atlantico: And the guy two posts after that quote (only 2 inches lower on the screen) provided a link that demonstrates that there is no refund policy, no one has been refunded and if anyone will then it will be at the whim of the company.
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StingingVelvet: Yeah sure, fair enough. All I did was quote him and say a refund is the best they can do in the situation. You don't have to get all militant on me.
Not militant against you, but against the developer, Frontier.

I see it as a real douchbag move to consider refunds on a case by case basis instead of just accepting their "hard" decision and deal with the "hard" consequences that come with it and refund without question.
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Atlantico: Not militant against you, but against the developer, Frontier.

I see it as a real douchbag move to consider refunds on a case by case basis instead of just accepting their "hard" decision and deal with the "hard" consequences that come with it and refund without question.
Yes, if the Kickstarter said offline mode they should refund anyone who asks without question.
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Atlantico: Not militant against you, but against the developer, Frontier.

I see it as a real douchbag move to consider refunds on a case by case basis instead of just accepting their "hard" decision and deal with the "hard" consequences that come with it and refund without question.
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StingingVelvet: Yes, if the Kickstarter said offline mode they should refund anyone who asks without question.
Indeed and it did say offline mode *and*' DRM free. Always online tied to an account is as much DRM as I can imagine.
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jorlin: The avatar seems indeed to have forsaken most of the old virtues: Humility, Justice, Honesty, Honour and Spirituality.
Oh, well, we still have the old games, right here on GOG.
I actually almost did back both, Shroud and Elite, but neither did give a good explanation of how they'd be handeling their off-line gaming. Both of them smelled like MMO games, which I am fully fine with, but I just wanted to see myself first how the things are handeled. Now with Elite we know, and personally as I'm not a backer, I'm fine with it and will propably get it at some point.
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tomimt: I actually almost did back both, Shroud and Elite, but neither did give a good explanation of how they'd be handeling their off-line gaming. Both of them smelled like MMO games, which I am fully fine with, but I just wanted to see myself first how the things are handeled. Now with Elite we know, and personally as I'm not a backer, I'm fine with it and will propably get it at some point.
Yep, what fan of single player offline would be foolish enough to pledge to both of them, given their MMOish focus? ;)
..
..
<raises hand sheepishly>...
Post edited November 17, 2014 by ncameron
high rated
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StingingVelvet: Yeah sure, fair enough. All I did was quote him and say a refund is the best they can do in the situation. You don't have to get all militant on me.
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Atlantico: Not militant against you, but against the developer, Frontier.

I see it as a real douchbag move to consider refunds on a case by case basis instead of just accepting their "hard" decision and deal with the "hard" consequences that come with it and refund without question.
I have to say, I do not like that Braben guy.

http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/elite/hypcnt.htm
Post edited November 17, 2014 by MaGo72
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Urnoev: I wonder why people always have to argue about the exact definition of Digital Rights Management. Does it really matter?

You have to install the Steam client at least once on one system, in order to play your copy of the game. Some think that is acceptable, others think it's not. And that's it.
Yes, because language matters. When you say a word, the majority of people are going to assume you mean the most common definition. And this makes all the difference between an unpopular marketing decision and malicious intent.

In the context of a relationship between me the customer and VectorTech the random DRM-free developer, Steam is a third-party distribution system. If they sold me a DRM-free game and then gave me a Steam code, I might feel disappointed because I don't want to create a Steam account; I may even request an alternate version because I'm banned on Steam. But it's really no different from having the DRM-free download serviced by GOG and me being banned on GOG, or any other unfortunate partnership. I'd even say fulfillment centers are a way bigger breach of kickstarter promises, I still get spam from those BackerKit scumbags.

So yes, surprise surprise, if you take kickstarter money promising to deliver rewards to backers and strike a deal with a company which is antithetical to the ethos you proclaimed (Steam and DRM-free, Facebook and privacy, Exxon Mobil and the environment), you might take a PR hit, and if you picked a partner which flat out can't deliver to certain backers, you should find an alternate option for them.

But if you broke a promise, you broke a promise. That's what "promising an offline game and delivering an online one" is. It matters if something is unpopular or a scam.

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Oh and Atlantico, holy shit, stop embarrassing the DRM-free movement.
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Starmaker:
I guess my statement was a bit misleading, I also think the exact definition is important overall, to find a common basis.
It is however rather irrelevant when talking about such specific issues in a real discussion. The conversation was about Steam and its way of handling installations. Whether this is called Digital Rights Management or not, is unimportant.
The seemingly important distinction only led to several posts of dumb arguments supporting each side between two fellow internet users, without actually making any progress.

That's why I haven't commented on the topic itself. Which makes my post equally dumb.
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jamotide: Here is another golden nugget:

"Except it isn't an issue of DRM, it's the fact that the game simply won't function if it's not online."

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=58789&amp;p=1015866&amp;viewfull=1#post1015866
Maybe they have a city-building segment in their game.
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Starmaker: ---
Oh and Atlantico, holy shit, stop embarrassing the DRM-free movement.
I don't represent a movement, what are you talking about?
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Gandos: While I'm not a big fan of either the Kickstarter or the Early Access trends, one positive thing that has come from them is that these sort of events and occurrences are increasingly making gamers re-examine the traditional notion that developers are "creative, innocent angels" and that publishers are "mean and oppressive".

Not to say that there haven't been legitimate examples of publishers acting that way. But now that certain studios have opted to/have been forced to handle all the financial, publishing and marketing duties themselves and don't have publishers to use as scape goats, they are showing themselves as they truly are. They are showing that they are just like anyone else; human beings who make mistakes or, in some cases, may even harbour malicious intent.
Very well stated! And this is a new, tough, lesson that we gamers should learn fast.

A little history lesson from the past:

Back when I was a kid, and most people were still playing with cassetes or floppy disks, there was a lot of piracy. Most (almost all) of the games I played were pirated copies. Games were expensive. Almost every new game costed about 50$ then and I and most kids didn't have the means to afford boxed copies. You either used piracy or you didn't play at all.

Game developpers then complained about the piracy issues and stated that, if piracy was stopped, then all games would be much less expensive, because then they wouldn't need to raise the price of new games in order to balance the market losses due to illegal copies. This was their justification.

Well, time passed. And, in the early 90's, we saw the appearance of the CD-Rom. And, for some years, there were almost no pirate copies. Because almost no-one was able to afford a CD-Recorder. They were way too expensive.
If memory serves me right, between 1992 and 1995 game developpers and publishers didn't needed to worry about pirating.

Did they finally lower the price of games?

Hell, no! The price remained the same!

And what was their justification for that? "Oh, you see... we now have more expenses in making a game. Full-Motion-Video, hiring actors to be digitized, making 3D intros, blah, blah, blah....

I was still a young boy then, but I learned a valuable lesson in those times: Don't trust the word of a firm or a producer. Most of the times they don't give a shit about the client. They just want the money.

And I'm sorry to say that I feel David Braben just wants our money too. I lack the programming skills to properly know how to develop a game. But I know plenty of people who are tech and programming-savy. And they state that the idea of Elite: Dangerous singleplayer being hard to achieve is ludicrous.

Sure, I understand that an offline E:D may be poorer than the online experience. But plenty of people still get their fun out of Elite+ or Elite 2. A new, single-player, space-trading game would be fun to play.

Now I have to wait till the X games reach GOG.

And I have a bad feeling towards the game's future. If the megalomaniac Star Citizen manages to fulfill its promises, then E:D will be smashed. I suspect that, in 2 years, the game will become deserted. Then its servers will be shutdown. And E:D will enter history as one of gaming's most hyped fiascos. But maybe I'm wrong.
Time will tell.
I think I'll be requesting a refund as well. To have an unplayable game just because I'm not online?!
They should have advertised it as a MMO in the first place. Then I would never have bought into it.
David Braben & co. can take a running jump into the pile of effluent negative PR their announcement has engendered.