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General discussionFrontier have decided to make Elite Dangerous online only.(608 posts)(608 posts)
(608 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 16, 2014
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Atlantico: Good grief. Steam is now DRM-free? What the heck do these people think DRM is?

Server authentication being around *before* DRM? Again, WTF do these monkeys think DRM *is*?
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karnak1: There are all kind of whackos and fanatics in the world. There are plenty of Steam and DRM fanatics. Same way there are islam (and other religion fanatics) who slaughter people and claim to do so in order to fulfill some "greater good" and obey some "higher power".

The imbecile quoted above is the kind of geek who has now seen E: D as some sort of second coming. The question of wether the game is any good is irrelevant. The game must come out, regardless of wether it's filled to the brim with DRM and will format your hard drive or install spyware on your pc.
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tomimt: I think some people just believe that indie devs are automatically somehow more honorable than big companies are and thus can do no wrong. And David Braben has gathered a quite a bit of hero worship during the years same way as Richard Garriott has for an example (yet another old school dev who is developing a MMO game that is supposedly going to have some kind of off-line mode, but as far I know only thing they've shown thus far of Shroud of the Avatar is MMO stuff.)
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karnak1: The same Richard Garriot who, in the end, destroyed the same loving franchise he created.
Let's not forget that even Ultima X (which was cancelled) was conceived as being an online game.
Steam fanatics are not DRM fanatics. Steam, and Valve, are not DRM. They employ DRM, they popularize it which is worse, but DRM is not all there is.
Posted November 17, 2014
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tomimt: I've been reading up on the drama and apparently Frontier is giving refunds to anyone for whom the current situation is a deal breaker.
That should really solve the issue for most. I respect their right to make an always online multiplayer focused game, the only issue was promising something they couldn't deliver. Refunding is the best way to go, glad they did.
Posted November 17, 2014
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Martek: The whole "is online requirement = DRM" is a red herring. One can argue until they are blue in the face about it. To me - that is DRM, but it doesn't matter.
When the promise was DRM-free, then I think DRM does matter, because to be DRM free you can't have the always online requirement.

As you strangely quote the same thing I was thinking of in your post and come to a wildly different conclusion, I wanted to post a rebuttal.

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johnnygoging: Steam fanatics are not DRM fanatics. Steam, and Valve, are not DRM. They employ DRM, they popularize it which is worse, but DRM is not all there is.
Steam is a DRM platform, everything about Steam is DRM. Every single game on Steam has DRM. All of them. For example an otherwise DRM free game "bought" on Steam:

- Steam is needed to install any game rented on Steam.
- Steam is activated every time a rented game is activated on a client's computer.
- Steam can and will monitor use of any game it has been used to install.

That is D R M
Post edited November 17, 2014 by Atlantico
Posted November 17, 2014
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tomimt: I've been reading up on the drama and apparently Frontier is giving refunds to anyone for whom the current situation is a deal breaker.
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StingingVelvet: That should really solve the issue for most. I respect their right to make an always online multiplayer focused game, the only issue was promising something they couldn't deliver. Refunding is the best way to go, glad they did.
As of this moment, Frontier have not refunded anyone anything or promised to refund anyone.

Why would you think that they had?
Posted November 17, 2014
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Atlantico: As of this moment, Frontier have not refunded anyone anything or promised to refund anyone.

Why would you think that they had?
'Cause the guy I quoted said they were?
Posted November 17, 2014
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Atlantico: As of this moment, Frontier have not refunded anyone anything or promised to refund anyone.

Why would you think that they had?
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StingingVelvet: 'Cause the guy I quoted said they were?
And the guy two posts after that quote (only 2 inches lower on the screen) provided a link that demonstrates that there is no refund policy, no one has been refunded and if anyone will then it will be at the whim of the company.

http://www.gog.com/forum/general/frontier_have_decided_to_make_elite_dangerous_online_only/post105
Post edited November 17, 2014 by Atlantico
Posted November 17, 2014
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tomimt: I've been reading up on the drama and apparently Frontier is giving refunds to anyone for whom the current situation is a deal breaker.
They are not giving refunds, not yet anyway. They are just telling you that you can apply for a refund if you are unhappy.

People asked for their money back, and the staff pointed at the store's return policy. There is definitely no hint that a refund will be given.

We will find out during the UK work week though. Hopefully they will honour refunds but currently no one knows.
Posted November 17, 2014
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Ravenvolf: They are not giving refunds, not yet anyway. They are just telling you that you can apply for a refund if you are unhappy.

People asked for their money back, and the staff pointed at the store's return policy. There is definitely no hint that a refund will be given.

We will find out during the UK work week though. Hopefully they will honour refunds but currently no one knows.
If they do not issue refunds in a timely manner then people should request a chargeback from their card provider. This falls clearly within the type of situation chargebacks cover, and once they start getting hit with multiple chargebacks and the associated fees they'll probably start re-thinking their stance on refunds pretty quick.
Posted November 17, 2014
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tomimt: I think some people just believe that indie devs are automatically somehow more honorable than big companies are and thus can do no wrong. And David Braben has gathered a quite a bit of hero worship during the years same way as Richard Garriott has for an example (yet another old school dev who is developing a MMO game that is supposedly going to have some kind of off-line mode, but as far I know only thing they've shown thus far of Shroud of the Avatar is MMO stuff.)
While I'm not a big fan of either the Kickstarter or the Early Access trends, one positive thing that has come from them is that these sort of events and occurrences are increasingly making gamers re-examine the traditional notion that developers are "creative, innocent angels" and that publishers are "mean and oppressive".

Not to say that there haven't been legitimate examples of publishers acting that way. But now that certain studios have opted to/have been forced to handle all the financial, publishing and marketing duties themselves and don't have publishers to use as scape goats, they are showing themselves as they truly are. They are showing that they are just like anyone else; human beings who make mistakes or, in some cases, may even harbour malicious intent.
Posted November 17, 2014
This is extremely disappointing.

I did not back the KS or pre-order or anything, but I did plan on buying this game. Not anymore. Chalk up another lost sale here.

Meanwhile, I will be interested to see what Stardock does with the Star Control license...
Posted November 17, 2014
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Atlantico: Steam is a DRM platform, everything about Steam is DRM. Every single game on Steam has DRM. All of them. For example an otherwise DRM free game "bought" on Steam:

- Steam is needed to install any game rented on Steam.
- Steam is activated every time a rented game is activated on a client's computer.
- Steam can and will monitor use of any game it has been used to install.

That is D R M
You're shooting yourself in the foot by saying every single game (any) because that's simply wrong. Steam can be used as DRM, but not all games use it. There are games on Steam which you'll never need Steam for again after you've downloaded them, neither to play nor install them.
Posted November 17, 2014
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Its a pity. What if I don't want to play online? What if I want to play at a very slow/casual way? No chance for that on online games.........
Posted November 17, 2014
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Atlantico: Steam is a DRM platform, everything about Steam is DRM. Every single game on Steam has DRM. All of them. For example an otherwise DRM free game "bought" on Steam:

- Steam is needed to install any game rented on Steam.
- Steam is activated every time a rented game is activated on a client's computer.
- Steam can and will monitor use of any game it has been used to install.

That is D R M
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Pheace: You're shooting yourself in the foot by saying every single game (any) because that's simply wrong. Steam can be used as DRM, but not all games use it. There are games on Steam which you'll never need Steam for again after you've downloaded them, neither to play nor install them.
No, I'm doing no such thing. Every single game - *every* - single game, without exception that is rented on Steam is with DRM.

Because you're wrong - there is no game on Steam that can be installed without Steam. You say there are, but no game on Steam comes with an installer.

Steam is a DRM platform. It exists parallel to any OS it runs on. There is no such thing as DRM free with Steam.

DRM free is among other things installable, standalone, and able to function in a closed, local environment without any third party interaction. gog.com fulfills this, Steam does not of course.

Even an otherwise DRM free game on Steam, requires Steam to install.

http://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/4293/how-can-you-install-steam-games-offline
Post edited November 17, 2014 by Atlantico
Posted November 17, 2014
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Pheace: You're shooting yourself in the foot by saying every single game (any) because that's simply wrong. Steam can be used as DRM, but not all games use it. There are games on Steam which you'll never need Steam for again after you've downloaded them, neither to play nor install them.
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Atlantico: No, I'm doing no such thing. Every single game - *every* - single game, without exception that is rented on Steam is with DRM.

Because you're wrong - there is no game on Steam that can be installed without Steam. You say there are, but no game on Steam comes with an installer.

Steam is a DRM platform. It exists parallel to any OS it runs on. There is no such thing as DRM free with Steam.

DRM free is among other things installable, standalone, and able to function in a closed, local environment without any third party interaction. gog.com fulfills this, Steam does not of course.

Even an otherwise DRM free game on Steam, requires Steam to install.

http://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/4293/how-can-you-install-steam-games-offline
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/list_of_drmfree_games_on_steam/page19

I'm sure you'll bring up the technicality of the first time 'install', but in Steam's case that's basically download + install. Once you do that the first time, you don't need Steam anymore. The games are technically drm-free.
Posted November 17, 2014
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Atlantico: No, I'm doing no such thing. Every single game - *every* - single game, without exception that is rented on Steam is with DRM.

Because you're wrong - there is no game on Steam that can be installed without Steam. You say there are, but no game on Steam comes with an installer.

Steam is a DRM platform. It exists parallel to any OS it runs on. There is no such thing as DRM free with Steam.

DRM free is among other things installable, standalone, and able to function in a closed, local environment without any third party interaction. gog.com fulfills this, Steam does not of course.

Even an otherwise DRM free game on Steam, requires Steam to install.

http://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/4293/how-can-you-install-steam-games-offline
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Pheace: http://www.gog.com/forum/general/list_of_drmfree_games_on_steam/page19

I'm sure you'll bring up the technicality of the first time 'install', but in Steam's case that's basically download + install. Once you do that the first time, you don't need Steam anymore. The games are technically drm-free.
Right, so besides the DRM, the game is basically DRM free. WTF?

The installation of a game is a little bit goddam important in order to use that game. If you are not the licenced user, do not have the correct account information or your account is not for whatever reason approved by Steam, then you can't install a game rented from Steam.

A game "activated" by Steam needs Steam to run for the first time on a new machine, and Steam must authenticate the game. And that still only works on portable games that don't use Windows registry.

edit: ok clearly you don't quite grasp what DRM free means. The audio CD is a good example of something DRM free.

It is a self contained unit. It can be moved between devices and used in said devices without *any* restriction and it can be backed up. Simple as that.

That is DRM free.

Nothing else.
Post edited November 17, 2014 by Atlantico
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionFrontier have decided to make Elite Dangerous online only.(608 posts)(608 posts)
(608 posts)