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General discussionFreeDOS or MS-DOS(42 posts)(42 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted September 12, 2015
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dkclemons1: So the only option I have is to buy an old computer with MS-DOS on it?
No, I think it would probably be best to buy a new computer that can run these games in DOSBox at full speed. While there is a lot of fun involved in tweaking obsolete hardware and software for those so inclined, I get the idea that you're mainly just looking to play the games. You could get lucky and find an ancient box for cheap or even free, but old hardware takes up space, is noisy, can be quirky or partially dysfunctional due to old age, and is in any case much, much, more difficult to set up than DOSBox.

You'd be going through a number of things that you may not be familiar with. BIOS settings, which won't save if the onboard battery is depleted. Hard drive partitioning, and to be careful there because either DOS or BIOS may be picky about what kinds of geometry it supports. Installing the system from floppies or cd, some of which, or the drive for, will be broken or working poorly. Optimizing your memory configuration with autoexec.bat and config.sys to conserve as much of the precious 640k base memory as you can. Figuring out how you're going to transfer data from your main PC to the old one. And when you're you're finally done you'll discover that the hard disk was being extra noisy because it was about to give up the ghost and just did.
Posted September 12, 2015
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hedwards: Anything before 2000 should be able to handle MS-DOS, those Windows OSes still made heavy use of it behind the scenes. IIRC, it was even possible to have Win ME boot directly into DOS without the GUI at all.
Yeah that's actually true, I got confused somewhat. Even that MS-DOS retro-PC of mine was in fact running Windows 98SE, from which I ran DOS games (booting to MS-DOS mode if needed).

I still have a couple other PCs too running Win98SE, but they are not for running DOS games, but early Win9x games. One of them is a laptop (IBM ThinkPad T41), and one is an old desktop with some 64bit Athlon CPU, ATI X800 Pro graphics card, using the onboard sound chip (which MS-DOS games wouldn't necessarily even detect as a valid sound card, not sure...) etc.

The old MS-DOS PC had all the needed bells and whistles like Soundblaster 16, a 3Dfx Voodoo 2 graphics card, Roland SCC-1 etc. Anyway, I feel DOSBox nowadays does all it could do, and more.
Post edited September 12, 2015 by timppu
Posted September 12, 2015
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timppu: Yeah that's actually true, I got confused somewhat. Even that MS-DOS retro-PC of mine was in fact running Windows 98SE, from which I ran DOS games (booting to MS-DOS mode if needed).
I can't think of any times i had to reboot into dos mode to make a game work... then again that usually came up if for some reason you HAD to have all the memory to run the game/program and you had one too many drivers loaded because you thought you needed them, or some magical configuration would make it work and windows just wouldn't let you.

The only game i could think of that MIGHT have that type of issue, was Mantis, which had heavy system requirements, i think 550k of the 640k, and you needed a mouse and cd driver too... unless you copied it to your hard drive... (which was unlikely because at the time you might have a 300Mb drive and not a 300Gb drive).
Posted September 12, 2015
To the OP, for your specific DOSBox problems:
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dkclemons1: I would like to start playing games through MS-DOS or FreeDOS because my laptop has trouble running DOSBox with some games. Daggerfall and Blood are a special kind of the pain in the butt. I have to change the cycles in game depending on what's going on.
Are these the original games, or e.g. GOG versions? I've played the GOG Blood on a couple of laptops, and I don't recall any problems running it, or stuttery sound/gameplay.

As I mentioned, for Daggerfall I suggest using this version (not sure if the GOG version works just as well, if you have that)::

[url=http://wiwiki.wiwiland.net/index.php?title=Daggerfall_:_DaggerfallSetup_EN]http://wiwiki.wiwiland.net/index.php?title=Daggerfall_:_DaggerfallSetup_EN[/url]

There is a similar ready-to-go package also for TES: Arena. At least for Arena, I think the gameplay was originally supposed to be somewhat "jerky" and slow. When I ran it the first time I thought it is running too slowly as I was expecting some 30-60 frames per second glass smooth animation, but apparently that wasn't what the original developers were expecting you to get.

Also, just to make sure you know it is possible to change the DOSbox (CPU) speed on the fly, with Ctrl F11 and Ctrl F12. So you don't have to change it on the dosbox config file of course.
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dkclemons1: If there is a video I have to lower it or it stutters and I have to raise it in game and adjust as I play because it alternates between sound stutters and choppy gameplay.
If the problem is specifically audio stuttering, I recall there is some sound buffer setting in DOSBox which you can probably increase. The downside would be that it introduces a bit of lag to the sound, ie. it is not fully synced to the action on the screen. (Or then I am now thinking of WinUAE, but I think DOSBox had similar...).
Post edited September 12, 2015 by timppu
Posted September 12, 2015
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timppu: If the problem is specifically audio stuttering, I recall there is some sound buffer setting in DOSBox which you can probably increase. The downside would be that it introduces a bit of lag to the sound, ie. it is not fully synced to the action on the screen. (Or then I am now thinking of WinUAE, but I think DOSBox had similar...).
I'm suddenly reminded of years ago when i used win95, there was windows versions of an NES emulator and a DOS version. The windows version added a quarter second delay on the sound which was infuriating, so i used the DOS version instead...

When feedback and action is needed, a delay in sound should be very very short. less than 100ms.
Posted September 12, 2015
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rtcvb32: I can't think of any times i had to reboot into dos mode to make a game work...
Usually I didn't have to (and it was actually easier to e.g. get enough conventional memory on Win9x as mouse drivers, disk cache etc. weren't eating part of it as they might in real DOS mode), but I think there were a few where I either had to or opted to boot to DOS mode. Ultima 7 and Privateer, if I recall correctly. I think those Origin games used some obscure memory managers that might be problematic in Windows 9x (Voodoo and JEMM memory managers designed by Origin, probably).

Occasionally some other DOS games also refused to run from Win9x desktop, maybe even complaining about it. Lethal Weapon might have been one, but then in the end I couldn't get it to run even on the MS-DOS mode on that PC anymore for some reason, while on a modern PC with DOSbox it runs great (one of the games which made me feel DOSBox is actually better for DOS games than a real MS-DOS PC).

The real strength of DOSBox IMHO is that it can emulate various different PC specifications, with various CPU speeds and even graphics cards. If you have a real MS-DOS PC, then you are pretty much locked into one spec, which might cause problems with DOS games from a different era, having different system expectations.

For instance, I recall in the 90s when I had to go to my PC BIOS to disable CPU cache because otherwise the digital audio wouldn't work on some Sierra adventure games (I think Sierra fixed this in a patch at least for some of the games...). Or, CGA-era DOS games would quite often run far too fast on VGA-era MS-DOS PCs.

Or, I think in Tie Fighter the enemy capital ships might behave erratically if you are running them on too slow or fast CPU (e.g. they might even stop shooting at you altogether depending on the CPU speed, which of course makes some missions quite easy...). With DOSBox, you can easily change the correct CPU speed for Tie Fighter so that the enemy capital ships behave correctly.
Post edited September 12, 2015 by timppu
Posted September 12, 2015
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timppu: For instance, I recall in the 90s when I had to go to my PC BIOS to disable CPU cache because otherwise the digital audio wouldn't work on some Sierra adventure games (I think Sierra fixed this in a patch at least for some of the games...). Or, CGA-era DOS games would quite often run far too fast on VGA-era MS-DOS PCs.
I remember King's Quest 5 had some sort of problem like that. I think it was 5, anyways, that one I always had to turn the turbo off in order to get sound.

As somebody who started off on an Apple ][ before moving onto DOS, I have a hard time feeling particularly nostalgic for DOS. Too many bad memories of afternoons wasted trying to figure out how to get all those things loaded into Himem so I could play that game that required 512kb of lowmem in order to function.
Posted September 12, 2015
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dkclemons1: From what I've read it seems like that.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I looked up MS-DOS on ebay to see how much it's going for and it's not awful, but if free works just as well then that's what I'll go for.

Thanks!
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hedwards: Does MS-DOS even run on modern hardware? What's more, in order to run MS-DOS, you'd have to have a floppy drive, which most computers don't have and I'm not even sure that USB floppy drives are still manufactured, assuming they'd even work wtih MS-DOS in the first place.
I was able to boot up in FreeDOS without any problem from a USB. It's supposed to work the same with MS-DOS but it didn't look like it worked when I tried booting it a few times. It worked in the YouTube video I watched.

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timppu: What Hedwards and others said. If you want to run real MS-DOS, you should really have MS-DOS era PC hardware. which mainly means some 1996 or before desktop PC with Soundblaster 16 sound card etc. Laptops and MS-DOS don't really mix, at least as far as gaming goes. DOS games expect certain kind of (desktop) hardware, and DOSBox emulates those for you nicely, something that real MS-DOS doesn't.

Also, if your main issue was how some game needs different system speed at different points, why do you think running real MS-DOS would fix that? Then you would be fixed to certain speed all the time (either too slow or too fast), without DOSBox's ability to change the system speed on the fly.

Also. I actually ended up having much better success running my old DOS games on a modern system running DOSBox. than my real old MS-DOS desktop PC. It may be because different DOS games prefer certain CPU speeds etc., and DOSBox can better cover them all.

You mentioned Blood and Daggerfall, and they both run fine for me in DOSBox (on modern hardware). For Daggerfall, use the DaggerfallSetup_en. Or maybe the GOG version runs fine too.
That kind of defeats the purpose of my laptop.

I figured that my computer might be having trouble with emulation since it wasn't a gaming computer when it was released in 2002. I like being able to change the speed in game with DOSBox, but it's aggravating to have to change it almost constantly.

You're probably right. The main reason I'm doing this is because I'd like to use the laptop for something and I don't need to make Word documents or anything. I spend most of my free time gaming so I thought I might go that route instead of putting it back in the closet.
Posted September 13, 2015
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dkclemons1: I like being able to change the speed in game with DOSBox, but it's aggravating to have to change it almost constantly.
Have you tried increasing frameskip? I think VGA emulation is rather demanding, it could make a difference.
You should never give more cycles than your computer can handle, as this will actually slow DOSBox down.
The dynamic core is the fastest, as long as it works, and it usually does. Auto might pick this for you anyway.
For Daggerfall you shouldn't give more than 50000 cycles or it will start getting buggy.
Posted September 13, 2015
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dkclemons1: That kind of defeats the purpose of my laptop.
What is your laptop (make and model)? You mention it is from 2002, so yeah it is quite aging, meaning it might not have always enough power for DOSBox, depending on the game. The oldest laptops I still have in use are IBM ThinkPad T41 and Dell Latitude D610. I think they are from 2003 and 2005, respectively. I don't recall if I've tried to run DOSBox games on either; I could try to run DaggerfallSetup_EN on the T41 to see how well it runs on it.

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dkclemons1: I like being able to change the speed in game with DOSBox, but it's aggravating to have to change it almost constantly.
With real MS-DOS installed, you lose that ability to change the system speed (if needed). Plus as has been said, DOS games probably don't support/recognize at least the audio hardware that you have on your laptop, so your DOS gaming with real MS-DOS would possibly be silent, at best.

Then again, I guess it doesn't hurt to try, like you have.

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dkclemons1: You're probably right. The main reason I'm doing this is because I'd like to use the laptop for something and I don't need to make Word documents or anything. I spend most of my free time gaming so I thought I might go that route instead of putting it back in the closet.
I usually do either of these two things (sometimes both) to my old PCs, if I want to keep them in active use:

1. With Windows XP and/or Windows 98SE installed, use it for running old Windows games which have problems on newer hardware and Windows versions. My IBM ThinkPad T41 is like this, it runs old Windows games great, I e.g. played Heavy Gear through with it (I had problems running Heavy Gear on my more modern Windows 7 PCs).

2. Install Linux (Mint). I think 1GB RAM is preferred for this, but probably less is also feasible. My Dell Latitude D610 is like this, I am running the 32bit Linux Mint 17.2 XFCE on it, and as it happens I am writing this message with it. My main point for having this laptop around nowadays is to download and verify my GOG games with it, using gogrepo.py tool.

Sure I could do the same with any of my other PCs too, but I like to do it on a dedicated separate PC as sometimes e.g. running a full verification on my GOG game collection on an USB hard disk seems to affect the responsiveness of the PC, and can be very time consuming (meaning I shouldn't reboot the machine during it etc.).
Posted September 13, 2015
One other thing to consider is an older program called dosemu. It is actually a DOS virtual machine, using the same CPU feature that was used in older versions of Windows. Furthermore, it does have Sound Blaster emulation, so it is possible to get sound.

For best results, you will need to use a 32-bit version of Linux, not a 64-bit one. (Then again, your laptop is so old that 64-bit is not an option anyway.)

Back in the day, I played Ultima 6 in dosemu, and it worked well. (This was before DOSBox was mature, I believe).
Posted September 13, 2015
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patthefatrat: Take a look at this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DOS-6-22-Win-3-1-Mini-Computer-for-Retro-Gaming-or-Programming-386-486-hp-t5520-/121756144272
Funny how the guy seems to think that 64 MB HDD space will be enough. My 386 had a 170 MB and I ran out of disk space in no time. Wing Commander 2 including the Secret Operations is 26 MB, Ultima 7 the Black Gate is 18MB, Serpent Isle is 22 MB and Ultima 8 is 28 MB.
Posted September 13, 2015
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stryx: Funny how the guy seems to think that 64 MB HDD space will be enough. My 386 had a 170 MB and I ran out of disk space in no time. Wing Commander 2 including the Secret Operations is 26 MB, Ultima 7 the Black Gate is 18MB, Serpent Isle is 22 MB and Ultima 8 is 28 MB.
It was back in a time when discs held so much data that it was sorta stupid for the time. The advent of FMV because they had the space and no other reason...

But often it was quite common to do minimal installs on the hard drive and run almost everything from the CD. CD's were usually single or double speed.

edit: Although... i'd want at least a 200Mb drive...
Post edited September 13, 2015 by rtcvb32
Posted September 13, 2015
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dkclemons1: I would like to start playing games through MS-DOS or FreeDOS because my laptop has trouble running DOSBox with some games. Daggerfall and Blood are a special kind of the pain in the butt. I have to change the cycles in game depending on what's going on. If there is a video I have to lower it or it stutters and I have to raise it in game and adjust as I play because it alternates between sound stutters and choppy gameplay.

I got the idea to dual boot with MS-DOS since I play so many DOS games and I really can't run many Windows games on my old laptop. I feel it might be better purposed as a MS-DOS machine for gaming and having Windows for browsing the web.

I have never used MS-DOS before. The earliest OS I remember using was XP. I really don't have much of an idea how to use DOS at all.

I managed to make a USB for booting into FreeDOS because MS-DOS wouldn't work for some reason. FreeDOS would be fine as long as it works.

Can someone help me with learning to use it? I can't seem to get any games to work. Daggerfall said it needed to CD, which really has nothing to do with DOS, but when I tried SimCity I got a message saying that it couldn't write to the C Drive (I think that's what the message was). I've tried three or four games and haven't had any success yet. It seems that this isn't a very popular thing to do because I didn't find much on it through Google searches. I'd appreciate any tips on getting this to work and sorry for the long winded post.
post your laptop specs. if your specs are good enough to run win xp, you're better off with DosBox. period. most old laptops(or new laptops for that matter) are terrible at running dos games anyway due to hardware incompatibilities(sp?) and lack of any 3D cards or chips that support any kind of graphics acceleration.

wasn't there a thread like this a month ago???
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dkclemons1: ...
I figured that my computer might be having trouble with emulation since it wasn't a gaming computer when it was released in 2002. I like being able to change the speed in game with DOSBox, but it's aggravating to have to change it almost constantly.
if you find that tiny little detail annoying, you WILL HATE typing multiple CONFIG.SYS files for certain games. you might as well throw that laptop back in the closet , or try to sell it overpriced on ebay.
Post edited September 13, 2015 by dick1982
Posted September 13, 2015
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dkclemons1: That kind of defeats the purpose of my laptop.
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timppu: What is your laptop (make and model)? You mention it is from 2002, so yeah it is quite aging, meaning it might not have always enough power for DOSBox, depending on the game. The oldest laptops I still have in use are IBM ThinkPad T41 and Dell Latitude D610. I think they are from 2003 and 2005, respectively. I don't recall if I've tried to run DOSBox games on either; I could try to run DaggerfallSetup_EN on the T41 to see how well it runs on it.

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dkclemons1: I like being able to change the speed in game with DOSBox, but it's aggravating to have to change it almost constantly.
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timppu: With real MS-DOS installed, you lose that ability to change the system speed (if needed). Plus as has been said, DOS games probably don't support/recognize at least the audio hardware that you have on your laptop, so your DOS gaming with real MS-DOS would possibly be silent, at best.

Then again, I guess it doesn't hurt to try, like you have.

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dkclemons1: You're probably right. The main reason I'm doing this is because I'd like to use the laptop for something and I don't need to make Word documents or anything. I spend most of my free time gaming so I thought I might go that route instead of putting it back in the closet.
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timppu: I usually do either of these two things (sometimes both) to my old PCs, if I want to keep them in active use:

1. With Windows XP and/or Windows 98SE installed, use it for running old Windows games which have problems on newer hardware and Windows versions. My IBM ThinkPad T41 is like this, it runs old Windows games great, I e.g. played Heavy Gear through with it (I had problems running Heavy Gear on my more modern Windows 7 PCs).

2. Install Linux (Mint). I think 1GB RAM is preferred for this, but probably less is also feasible. My Dell Latitude D610 is like this, I am running the 32bit Linux Mint 17.2 XFCE on it, and as it happens I am writing this message with it. My main point for having this laptop around nowadays is to download and verify my GOG games with it, using gogrepo.py tool.

Sure I could do the same with any of my other PCs too, but I like to do it on a dedicated separate PC as sometimes e.g. running a full verification on my GOG game collection on an USB hard disk seems to affect the responsiveness of the PC, and can be very time consuming (meaning I shouldn't reboot the machine during it etc.).
It's a Toshiba Satellite A45-S121. I didn't actually buy it but I think the person that gave it to me said he got it in 2002 or 2003. I was thinking that maybe it just didn't have the power to do emulation. I don't have any problem with the majority of games on my gaming rig, but I can't carry that thing around or use it in the living room while my wife is watching reality TV.

You actually reminded me that I already had Mint downloaded to try it out. I'm actually using Mint as I type this. I'm not sure how to play games on here though. I can't really get anything to run, like I couldn't with Lubuntu.
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Community
General discussionFreeDOS or MS-DOS(42 posts)(42 posts)
(42 posts)