Here's hoping this doesn't double post... Missed a slash in one of my quote-closing brackets first time around.



Nah, moving targets are harder to hit.

That's a problem?

We don't want the Machines to have those!!!

Fine, you have a point there.

Didn't you read the rules??? We're not allowed to kill anyone...

My last one did. But then it turned on me. :'-(

More likely you think anyone other than yourself is likely a spy. ;-P

Well, I do too, so let's be pals!

It's actually highly informative just who everyone suggests to go on the mission. There's a lot of WIFOM about the members for the missions. Volunteering is common in our games.

That's because I am!

It's VERY if the captain doesn't send himself on a mission.

Reasoning begin: If he's Resistance, he's lessening the chance that the mission succeeds.
If he's not Resistance, then he wants to appear Resistance, so see above.

I Accept this proposal. As I have no information on the involved players, I have no reason to reject it. That's always my reasoning for the first mission.

You are free to lie (or even tell the truth) about your vote for a team proposal. Just be advised that the proposal votes will be made public, much like lynch votes.

You are also free to lie (or tell the truth) about your choice of mission actions. Much like night actions, whodunit will not be public, though what was done WILL be public.
Make sure to PM a mod with your vote, per Leonard's note to Hijack.

This gave me an idea for a setup. What if there is a game where lynch votes are sent to the mod and only made available at lynch, or not at all? :O

That'd be freaking annoying for the players, but it could make for an interesting setup.

Feel free. I'm in discussions with Leonard about how much role I'll take in running the game. I have explicit permission to move things along when a team is proposed, and I have implicit permission to move things along if I know that everyone has voted on a team proposal.

Everyone should vote with Leonard, regardless of whether they submit the vote to me as well. Please, for sanity's sake, don't vote one way with him and a different way with me. I will be CC'ing him with every vote that is sent to me.

General note to all players: I don't actually know anyone's alignment. I was involved in troubleshooting and polishing the rules, but I haven't asked about who is on which team. So you are well advised not to try and parse any of my posts for clues about that. ;)

It would certainly wreck havoc with our usual L-1 behavior.

Wow, talk about paranoia. Could be interesting.


As far as the game, I see no reason to reject Lift's proposal. (vote sent to moderator)

Woot woot! Those right there, those are powers of analysis. ;-P



@Lenny & Booky: Had Lift's team been officially submitted? Is there a deadline that people have to vote Aye/Nay by? Has everyone posted yet? Does this team meetings serve refreshments? Which way to the washrooms? Why do you still have an LCD TV? Also, is there WiFi in here?

I think the captain including himself on the first mission leaves more room for doubt and room for false reads later on in missions. I understand that if he is Resistance, that it can make sense for him to pick himself in order to increase the odds of success, but on 1st mission, I don't really see a spy failing the mission anyway, so while itself doesn't seem outright fishy, it allows room for more fishiness, and I'm not down with that.

I refuse to accept this team. I'll keep refusing until Lift is not on the team or someone convinces me otherwise. It's just how I read the best strategy from this point, and I've got to go with that.

I'd be happy to include him in my team if I don't have a bad feeling about him when the time comes.

vote submitted

Say the Captain doesn't put himself on the first team.

If the mission succeeds, what does he learn? Nothing, really. You've noted, quite correctly, that spies are unlikely to fail the first mission.

If the mission fails, what does he learn? He knows a spy resides among the three people that went on the mission.


Say the Captain does put himself on the first team.

If the mission succeeds, what does he learn? Nothing, really. As above, spies are unlikely to fail the first mission.

If the mission fails, what does he learn? He knows a spy resides among the two people that went on the mission.


I admit, that leaves out the WIFOM of getting Resistance cred for later in the game, but that's how my reasoning runs. Feel free to disagree! But explain yourself. I'll be reading. ;-)

Yes
Did you read anything at all?
Yes
No
You should know this
All others are manufactured and controlled by the machines.
-_-


All vote are in!

Mission 1, Team Proposal 1
Team Captain: Lifthrasil
Members: Lifthrasil, HijacK, JMich

Votes:
JMich: yes
drealmer7: no
Lifthrasil: yes
agentcarr16: yes
HijacK: yes
cristigale: yes
Brasas: no
Dessimu: yes
Ixamyakxim: no
Team ACCEPTED

All team members please submit your actions! If you are Resistance your only option is "pass". If you are a spy, you may choose to either "pass" or "fail" the mission. Only one fail is needed to bring the whole mission down. Please use this format:
Mission 2: fail

...talking first mission only here (not that these things might not apply to future missions, but I'm only focused on the task at hand right now)...

what the captain learns from it, whether he is part of it or not, doesn't mean anything to the rest of us, because he could simply be lying: "hey everyone, 1 of these 2 other ppls must be a spy!" vs. "hey everyone 1 of these 3 other ppls must be a spy!", to the rest of us Resistance, in both cases, unless we're included in the mission of course, it's still 3 people that could be spies. To me, the information gleaned doesn't change with an included captain or not, except for the captain, if he's Resistance. But we can't just assume that and hope for the best. It's a dire situation, we've got to prepare for the worst.

Worst case scenario: 1st captain is a spy who doesn't fail the first mission. It could totally fuck future reads, I think, and is best to play it safe.

I was contemplating this for while before things even got going here. If I were chosen as captain first, what would I do? (less trying to prepare myself for the possibility that I would be, and more so I could gauge the actual 1st captain's behavior)

I decided that on the 1st mission, if a spy (or spies) is on it, they are very unlikely to fail it (if not downright 0 chance), and so increasing the odds of success on the 1st mission is not as important as setting up the results of the 1st mission to help read the future teams and missions better. This was lifthrasil's reason for putting himself on the mission (to increase the odds of success), and to me, doesn't really make a good enough reason to trust it/go with it on the first mission, over being cautious for screwing ourselves in the future.

Lift, do you really think spies would fail the first mission?

I decided the best way to read future missions was to not include myself on the mission because if/when a future mission fails I get a broader read (example: if mission 1 is a pass with players X, Y, Z and mission 3 is a fail with players X, A, B is simply better to read than if mission 1 is a pass with players Y + Z, and mission 3 is a fail with players X, A, B, I'm simply getting less information. This doesn't implicate X, certainly.)

In short, I think Resistance might be better off if they were able to choose 3 spies to go on mission 1, assuming the mission passes.

Further, I thought about it, and if I were a spy and 1st mission captain, I might actually (ya know, cause I'm BOLD) assign myself to it, hope to get it accepted, and then fail it, and then from there on out, hound the other 2 as spies the rest of the game, then if chosen by a captain for a future mission, I'd pass it, clear myself as telling the truth about the 1st mission, and hopefully be assigned to future missions and fail the rest of them. Of course I'd have to re-evaluate if a fellow spy was also on future missions.

I did read it all, promise. These thoughts will be kind of rambling, but I think I'm generally following the order in your post.


Not sure if you realize, but we all realize if the mission succeeded or failed, and also what the exact votes were on it.


There's a bit of a mind-twist that I don't think you've considered.

Everyone is watching the captain, to see how they behave. If I was the captain, I would want the greater information, correct? So if I was captain, I would put myself on the mission, because the possible information return is greater, and there's a greater chance of success on the mission.
Ergo, I'm watching to see if Lift is acting like I would act.
If he acts differently, I'm asking myself, "Why?" And the first reason coming to mind is that he's spy and he wants to give Resistance cred to one of his buddies. (Spies know each other, FYI.)

We have no information as to whether Lift is spy or Resistance. I can't assume everyone is a spy, or I simply become an enormous block to operations. If everyone assumed that everyone was a spy, every team would be rejected, and the spies would win easily. So we have to assume that people are Resistance, until a mission is failed.
It's a different mindset than in normal Mafia.

I'm not sure why "pass w/ X,Y,Z and fail with X,A,B" is easier to read than "pass with Y,Z and failed with X,A,B".
In the second possibility, you're neglecting the captain, so it's actually an identical situation for everyone but those who are on the missions.

Yeah, Resistance might be better off, but it rarely happens. (Did once, though!)
Actually, it'd be even more convenient if the first mission had 3 fail votes on it. X-D

Problem is, if you did that, those other people are much more suspicious of you, and when they have their chance as captain, they're not going to be choosing you. Captains aren't chosen, the role is passed around. (Along the player order, if I'm not mistaken.)

Yes, I do realize that, thanks for making sure.

But do you really think on mission 1, as captain, you're really getting greater information OR increasing the chances of success? I don't. Future missions, yes likely, mission 1, not very likely at all, and I see a bigger potential payoff/potential for information gathering if the captain for mission 1 doesn't assign himself. (of course moot now, just talking about it, having fun, ya know, learning playing the game.)

The best we can tell from this currently is that we agree to watch the captains to see how they behave and how it would compare to our own behaviors if we were captain for the specific missions, and that we've both reached different conclusions on what our behavior would have been and therefore a different view of Lift.

I certainly don't assume everyone is a spy, I *know* that it is possible that anyone could be a spy. For me, those are 2 totally different modes of thinking and don't overlap in logic evaluations.

Sooo, at this point, assuming Mission 1 succeeds, what does everyone think of Mission 2 having the same 3? Lift, JMich, and HijacK? and if that passes, the same 3 again? perhaps we've got a team of 3 Resistance and should ride them to victory?

Notice the second mission needs 4 people.