Posted June 19, 2016
![Dessimu](https://images.gog.com/596fecb7776519016de0bda90ed9c096d3c7dc97986bb723d0a0e27a3d922bb4_forum_avatar.jpg)
Dessimu
Irish ☕ good
Registered: Aug 2014
From Denmark
![Brasas](https://images.gog.com/0beb6642bde53b0a76e029adc4c4869ec15f3e6cd7a05aa082eb26fdbe7ae5e4_forum_avatar.jpg)
Brasas
Abrasive Charpit
Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
Posted June 19, 2016
I'm not the one suggesting or implying that if 3 players went on a failed mission (let's call them the 3 Stooges for now)they should all be given blanket treatment A.
Implying anyone would find it appropriate if A = "let's send the 3 Stooges right out again, plus find them a new sidekick" is funny. Ha ha.
The actual point I'm making is some of you are pretty much implying that A should be benching the 3 Stooges.
Without any consideration (until now) that picking people exclusively from the non Stooges group is no better than picking people (note the lack of the word "all") from inside the Stooges.
That's what the 2:1 ratio proves, and you sure have not disproved that.
So back to my question. What do you guys find so appealing about the "let's bench them all" thinking?
Becase if you did not imply the "all", then I'd like to hear more about why bench player 1 instead of player 2 or whatever the case may be. And by "hear more" I mean - see your votes on later team proposals.
But whatever. Mission 1 actually passed. So this is just killing time.
Need to run now.
Implying anyone would find it appropriate if A = "let's send the 3 Stooges right out again, plus find them a new sidekick" is funny. Ha ha.
The actual point I'm making is some of you are pretty much implying that A should be benching the 3 Stooges.
Without any consideration (until now) that picking people exclusively from the non Stooges group is no better than picking people (note the lack of the word "all") from inside the Stooges.
That's what the 2:1 ratio proves, and you sure have not disproved that.
So back to my question. What do you guys find so appealing about the "let's bench them all" thinking?
Becase if you did not imply the "all", then I'd like to hear more about why bench player 1 instead of player 2 or whatever the case may be. And by "hear more" I mean - see your votes on later team proposals.
But whatever. Mission 1 actually passed. So this is just killing time.
Need to run now.
![JMich](https://images.gog.com/a8ab2f8d69429a7d74e353b1bca48bd0a2ecbd3d2cd1cc9267ee46ae07eaf3e7_forum_avatar.jpg)
JMich
A Horrible Human Person. If you need me, chat.
Registered: Apr 2011
From Greece
Posted June 19, 2016
![avatar](http://images.gog.com/0beb6642bde53b0a76e029adc4c4869ec15f3e6cd7a05aa082eb26fdbe7ae5e4_avm.jpg)
Implying anyone would find it appropriate if A = "let's send the 3 Stooges right out again, plus find them a new sidekick" is funny. Ha ha.
The actual point I'm making is some of you are pretty much implying that A should be benching the 3 Stooges.
Without any consideration (until now) that picking people exclusively from the non Stooges group is no better than picking people (note the lack of the word "all") from inside the Stooges.
And no, the 2:1 ratio is not necessarily constant. A mission that has failed had at least one spy in it, and as many as three. Which means the other 6 players contain between 0 and 2 spies. So the "three stooges" has up to 2:1 ratio, while the "not three stooges" has at least 2:1 ratio. The most likely scenario would be that both groups have exactly a 2:1 ratio of resistance to spies, but not necessarily true. So benching the stooges would not be detrimental to resistance (assuming only one spy in the group), and it might be beneficial (assuming more than one spy in the group).
![Leonard03](https://images.gog.com/d0e74cbb82f70c25f4734839173656bcc476585cb1a370f0865c5e9522807637_forum_avatar.jpg)
Leonard03
Prepare For Descent
Registered: Mar 2014
From Canada
![drealmer7](https://images.gog.com/0620ef089804fd2d3d36d66702e41cdd5f3925bc78e6b1d497e1626c7697a661_forum_avatar.jpg)
drealmer7
finding balance
Registered: Dec 2010
From United States
Posted June 19, 2016
As much positioning and discussion and everything that has gone on about this mission team, I think it makes sense to accept it and see what result we get. Not super-confident about anyone (cept maybe cristi), but we've got a lot to go on with all of this, so it just makes sense to accept.
voting yes
cristi, I wouldn't worry about your mind not being here, it's not as heavy/involved as mafia and you're all good as far as I can see (you participated wonderfully), even if you can't participate much, just a "hey all, I'm alive" msg once every 24 hrs. and I think you'd be fine/serve us fine.
voting yes
cristi, I wouldn't worry about your mind not being here, it's not as heavy/involved as mafia and you're all good as far as I can see (you participated wonderfully), even if you can't participate much, just a "hey all, I'm alive" msg once every 24 hrs. and I think you'd be fine/serve us fine.
![Lifthrasil](https://images.gog.com/e2259851c6e86609b166b01345176fdc7b1fed6147789a7fb8042dc24095c8da_forum_avatar.jpg)
Lifthrasil
Bring the GOG-Downloader back!
Registered: Apr 2011
From Germany
Posted June 19, 2016
Well, I may be too trusting. But in any case I trust HijacK and Dessimu more than I trust you from what they have written so far and from what you have written. You come over as quite manipulative. True, you write a lot - but in spite of all that quantity it isn't all that helpful. I would have expected more from the most experienced player around. For example that you actually answer to questions concerning the game. Which you didn't. So I'll repeat Dessimu's question: where do you see the damage in announcing one's votes? They will be revealed nonetheless by Leonard. So lying about it is out of the question anyhow. Sure, one can keep it 'secret' until it is revealed, but I think it would be more helpful if we required everyone to state what (s)he voted right away. Then one could see who hesitates to cast a vote. Generally the Resistance needs all the information it can get to try to find spys. So why do you imply that withholding information would be good?
![Ixamyakxim](https://images.gog.com/0963288ea6c5a2b294f2e73a0ef825939c6ed379bef4b045d2d603da208586d8_forum_avatar.jpg)
Ixamyakxim
Boxer Dogs Rule
Registered: Feb 2014
From United States
![HijacK](https://images.gog.com/6032762e8e702a9bbf67543cd2fd61b2eeabd490739886c8292c9472021d6521_avm.jpg)
HijacK
Ambition
Registered: Apr 2012
From Romania
Posted June 19, 2016
![avatar](http://images.gog.com/0963288ea6c5a2b294f2e73a0ef825939c6ed379bef4b045d2d603da208586d8_avm.jpg)
I can see the logic behind this, but I think it's limiting to think only in this way.
Perhaps it was a bit of an overstatement, but even just by glossing over the last 2 pages (20 posts per page type) you can see that not everyone is in agreement regarding her.
![Brasas](https://images.gog.com/0beb6642bde53b0a76e029adc4c4869ec15f3e6cd7a05aa082eb26fdbe7ae5e4_forum_avatar.jpg)
Brasas
Abrasive Charpit
Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
![JMich](https://images.gog.com/a8ab2f8d69429a7d74e353b1bca48bd0a2ecbd3d2cd1cc9267ee46ae07eaf3e7_forum_avatar.jpg)
JMich
A Horrible Human Person. If you need me, chat.
Registered: Apr 2011
From Greece
Posted June 19, 2016
![avatar](http://images.gog.com/0beb6642bde53b0a76e029adc4c4869ec15f3e6cd7a05aa082eb26fdbe7ae5e4_avm.jpg)
Mission 1. 3 people go in. Let's see best plays for spy to resistance cases.
3 resistances. Mission passes without issues.
2 resistances, 1 spy. Best play is for the spy to fail the mission.
1 resistance, 2 spies. Best play is for the spies pass the mission.
3 spies. Best play is (again) to pass the mission.
For the mission to fail, it means that at least one spy was on the mission (again, first mission, 3 people, one fail required). The only time it makes sense for spies to fail the mission is if there's only one spy in it. If there are more spies in it, benching the three players costs much more to the spies than they gain. But you don't always have players that understand the best play, nor is it reasonable to expect them to be able to communicate effectively. So it is possible, even if unlikely, that the spies will fail the first mission with more than one spy in it.
So, if they do the best play, benching the three players and working with vote preferences to try and identify the one leaves the resistance with the 2:1 ratio, same as if they didn't bench them. If there's not a best play scenario, then benching the three players leave the resistance with a 5:1 or even better ratio. At no point does not benching the players give a better ratio than 2:1.
So yes, assuming best play and the first mission failing with 1 fail, then the ratios are most likely equivalent. But if you are not sure about the players' understanding of the game rules, the best play may not be the one that happens.
Either way, theorycrafting atm, since the first mission passed without any issues.
![Dessimu](https://images.gog.com/596fecb7776519016de0bda90ed9c096d3c7dc97986bb723d0a0e27a3d922bb4_forum_avatar.jpg)
Dessimu
Irish ☕ good
Registered: Aug 2014
From Denmark
Posted June 19, 2016
![agentcarr16](https://images.gog.com/24d40e8a3ed25c41c30011e5233f456c0886b1adc8d489db9c1babfec8fb729c_forum_avatar.jpg)
agentcarr16
Vagabond
Registered: Mar 2014
From Canada
Posted June 19, 2016
Maybe I'm just tired, but all this talk of spy ratios is going right over my head.
Which is weird. Since I'm in math.
Regardless, who are we waiting on?
Which is weird. Since I'm in math.
Regardless, who are we waiting on?
![Brasas](https://images.gog.com/0beb6642bde53b0a76e029adc4c4869ec15f3e6cd7a05aa082eb26fdbe7ae5e4_forum_avatar.jpg)
Brasas
Abrasive Charpit
Registered: Dec 2010
From Poland
Posted June 20, 2016
Still saw this, so once more unto the breach myself. Kind of important. Maybe...
As to the actual maths. You might have missed it, but I already agreed you are right. And I have said myself it's just theoretical now.
But I still find this broad analysis of yours is a non sequitur of sorts. The questioning I made was so this talk of benching got benched. The approach of looking only at the "3 Stooges", or looking only at the "Stooge Reserves" are both suboptimal. What you said yourself and I left quoted is the point, and benching the whole "3 Stooges" is not a prerequisite for doing it.
And by the way, if you're assuming players don't understand the rules and what the best plays might be, maybe jump in and try and convince / influence / manipulate your buddies about the best plays? Of course depending who your buddies are, maybe it's not in your interest to help the majority? :)
Or paraphrasing Lift... in spite of all that quality of thought, it isn't that helpful... funny that. Especially since you coily say you don't know how to play, but then reveal a really good grasp of the probabilities and how they drive "best play". Theoretically... ;)
@ all
It's particularly hard for me to know how much to push on stuff like this. Are these scum slips or noob errors? Or just JMich being JMich? He is the cautious, stand back type...
Anyway please allocate it some brainpower?
@ Dess
You have a way of posting right when I need to do something else. In this case, go catch some zzzz...
I'll tell you what I already posted for someone else - because you'll need it eventually.
If I were spy, I would be helping just as much - the better to stick the knife. Keep your eyes on the ball (on the votes), and keep using what's between your eyes.
@ Agent
Cristi or Leonard. Ix probly voted while doing his drive by.
As to the actual maths. You might have missed it, but I already agreed you are right. And I have said myself it's just theoretical now.
But I still find this broad analysis of yours is a non sequitur of sorts. The questioning I made was so this talk of benching got benched. The approach of looking only at the "3 Stooges", or looking only at the "Stooge Reserves" are both suboptimal. What you said yourself and I left quoted is the point, and benching the whole "3 Stooges" is not a prerequisite for doing it.
And by the way, if you're assuming players don't understand the rules and what the best plays might be, maybe jump in and try and convince / influence / manipulate your buddies about the best plays? Of course depending who your buddies are, maybe it's not in your interest to help the majority? :)
Or paraphrasing Lift... in spite of all that quality of thought, it isn't that helpful... funny that. Especially since you coily say you don't know how to play, but then reveal a really good grasp of the probabilities and how they drive "best play". Theoretically... ;)
@ all
It's particularly hard for me to know how much to push on stuff like this. Are these scum slips or noob errors? Or just JMich being JMich? He is the cautious, stand back type...
Anyway please allocate it some brainpower?
@ Dess
You have a way of posting right when I need to do something else. In this case, go catch some zzzz...
I'll tell you what I already posted for someone else - because you'll need it eventually.
If I were spy, I would be helping just as much - the better to stick the knife. Keep your eyes on the ball (on the votes), and keep using what's between your eyes.
@ Agent
Cristi or Leonard. Ix probly voted while doing his drive by.
![Ixamyakxim](https://images.gog.com/0963288ea6c5a2b294f2e73a0ef825939c6ed379bef4b045d2d603da208586d8_forum_avatar.jpg)
Ixamyakxim
Boxer Dogs Rule
Registered: Feb 2014
From United States
![JMich](https://images.gog.com/a8ab2f8d69429a7d74e353b1bca48bd0a2ecbd3d2cd1cc9267ee46ae07eaf3e7_forum_avatar.jpg)
JMich
A Horrible Human Person. If you need me, chat.
Registered: Apr 2011
From Greece
Posted June 20, 2016
![avatar](http://images.gog.com/0beb6642bde53b0a76e029adc4c4869ec15f3e6cd7a05aa082eb26fdbe7ae5e4_avm.jpg)
![avatar](http://images.gog.com/0beb6642bde53b0a76e029adc4c4869ec15f3e6cd7a05aa082eb26fdbe7ae5e4_avm.jpg)
This is my first resistance game, and I haven't looked at how to play it. So I go with what my gut tells me, yet your experience says I'm going at it wrong. I can't say I'd have thought of the votes as that important, at least not until you mentioned those, yet your votes and thoughts on them do make me question your motives. I don't really think I'll be enjoying the next resistance games that much though, since I do now see them as flipless mafia games, aka no way of knowing if you guessed correctly or not :/