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@ Person who's sent me a message - I'll be able to read it when I get to an actual computer. I'm not ignoring you!


regarding poppy and flub - I think you're both great people. I can't offer much in the way of solutions, but you've got a lot of love from a lot of people here.
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JoeSapphire: regarding poppy and flub - I think you're both great people. I can't offer much in the way of solutions, but you've got a lot of love from a lot of people here.
yes <3 !!1!
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JoeSapphire: regarding poppy and flub - I think you're both great people. I can't offer much in the way of solutions, but you've got a lot of love from a lot of people here.
Yes. If you have to take turns playing, then so be it. But I still wish you would learn to get along (or at least ignore each other) so that you can play in the same games.
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JoeSapphire: regarding poppy and flub - I think you're both great people. I can't offer much in the way of solutions, but you've got a lot of love from a lot of people here.
Yeah, this pretty much sums it up. I hope to play in games with both of you in the future even if not at the same time.
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ZFR: What happens when mafia can't reach a consensus regarding NK? In all the 54 games on GOG this never has been an issue?
(and in all the thousands of games outside GOG? I find it hard to believe such a situation never happened, yet looking through mafia wiki I can't find any information on how this should be resolved).

Thanks!
Every mafia team I've seen here on GOG always eventually came to a consensus. There are typically a few decent targets, discussion occurs, and the group will finally agree on a kill (or lack thereof). Sometimes the mafia members will just defer to someone else's stronger opinion, but I don't think I've ever seen a mafia team get gridlocked through intractability.

I can't speak for the wider world. There are enough jerks out there that I imagine it has been a problem somewhere.
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JoeSapphire: or immediately kill all mafia players.
This.

Dawn flavour about there being a terrible argument, then all of the mafia members simultaneously shoot each other. Town rejoices. Then gets murdered by a serial killer.
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Lifthrasil: Better than letting us down! ;-)
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SirPrimalform: I meant my in game team, I don't give a fuck about those guys at work!
LOL too funny! Hey you were my town sounding board last game - too bad I run my mouth too much and get killed ;)
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ZFR: What happens when mafia can't reach a consensus regarding NK? In all the 54 games on GOG this never has been an issue?
(and in all the thousands of games outside GOG? I find it hard to believe such a situation never happened, yet looking through mafia wiki I can't find any information on how this should be resolved).

Thanks!
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Bookwyrm627: Every mafia team I've seen here on GOG always eventually came to a consensus. There are typically a few decent targets, discussion occurs, and the group will finally agree on a kill (or lack thereof). Sometimes the mafia members will just defer to someone else's stronger opinion, but I don't think I've ever seen a mafia team get gridlocked through intractability.
Not exactly the same but same result - there was the first dungeon game where HiJack was completely MIA one night. Yogsloth opted to let the team decide the kill in his absence [which I have no issue with, but was not consensus] - and to use his strongman power to boot to make the kill - which was the part I thought was problematic.

But yogs was mod, so...
Post edited October 19, 2018 by bler144
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bler144: Not exactly the same but same result - there was the first dungeon game where HiJack was completely MIA one night. Yogsloth opted to let the team decide the kill in his absence [which I have no issue with, but was not consensus] - and to use his strongman power to boot to make the kill - which was the part I thought was problematic.

But yogs was mod, so...
I suppose it might have been better phrased as "I haven't seen any mafia really fight over the NK. Except maybe who gets the pleasure of murdering someone." If someone is completely MIA, then the team works around it.
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flubbucket: I will comment on the unpleasantness in game #55 and then I’ll move on down the road.

In game #53 (and in the admin thread) there was discourse regarding changing avatars during a game. It was to my surprise the discussion turned to consideration of further rules being implemented. The discussion was had and the matter seemed to be tabled (or at least left up to individual moderation).

During the course of that game I duped poppyappletree’s avatar. She PMed me with: “..Why are you using my avatar” Then 30 minutes later PMed me: “Just as an FYI, I'm having a really stressful time at the moment and I don't need your shenanigans.”

I promptly changed my avatar (as promptly as the site allows) because I had no intention of stressing anyone. I didn’t PM her back or demand my rights to do whatever I want to do. I moved on.

During game #55 I made a comment (post#157) to one of her many posts berating me and my play with: “You are truly being a hateful player.” It wasn’t a personal attack from me. It was an assessment of an emotionally charged series of posts aimed directly at me.

When she subbed out I received this final PM from her: “Right, you've got your wish: I'm subbing out of the game. I'm done. You have entirely killed any desire I had to play, and I was previously enjoying the game. Your conduct towards me since #53 has been appalling, and was a substantial part of why I chose not to play in #54 - I had informed Joe from the outset that I didn't wish to play with you. I can't play with someone who uses a game as a pretext to continue personally harassing another player, so I will not be playing with you in future. You are also not welcome in any games that I might moderate, so spare us both the ugliness and don't try to sign up. Probably best if you don't reply to this; in fact, I have no desire to talk to you further so it would save us both the trouble. Feel free to share this with ZFR though, you probably ought to.”

This is unhealthy. This is personal. And no matter how absurd I may think something is, I have an obligation to help. I have no interest in foisting myself into anything which will result in such hostility and bitterness. If someone wants something so badly they’re willing to say anything to get it, again I have an obligation to help. Giving up forum mafia for someone else’s peace of mind is mine to give.

I’m going to look for Krypsyn.
It would appear nobody told me we were airing our dirty laundry in public. I would have appreciated a ping rather than being subquoted, since I've only just seen this. I'm prepared to take your comments at face value for argument's sake, but consider my perspective. I've almost certainly forgotten some of the details, but let's have at it.

You were aware that I wished in retrospect that I had made explicitly clear in the rules for #53 that players should not use avatars or title text to communicate with other players, as this violated day/night phase posting restrictions and the requirement to have all game communication presented in a permanent and unedited format. In response to this, you changed your avatar to a Cylon toaster - an obvious suggestion of a Mafia claim - during the night phase. This had a substantial tangible effect on the game, as it was noticed by the Town's vigilante, who shot you as a result. From the PMs I received, I know that they would have otherwise shot a Mafia player. As such, your actions can legitimately be seen as a major factor in the Town's loss. As the moderator, I found this incredibly frustrating, and I'd been frustrated by the extent to which your avatars had been speculated upon in-game prior to that: the issue of your avatars being used as claims dominated discussion during Day 1 of the game, which you'll recall ended in a no-lynch. You were, for reference, a Vanilla Townie. There's a large degree of tolerance for varying levels of skill between players, but a player who seemingly purposefully causes their own team to lose is without a doubt a bad player.

Since we're posting PMs, we may as well include the PMs I sent you after your death in #53:

Incidentally, since you're dead, I'll let you know that your toaster avatar caused you to draw a Town Night Kill.
You were very popular.
The Cylon Toaster avatar incident caused me to double down on my belief that you should pick an avatar before you get your PM and stick to it, and I continued to push for such a provision earlier in this thread.

You didn't reply to my comments regarding your conduct, but during the sign-up thread for #54 a day or two later (not during #53, as you claimed) you changed your avatar to mine. This struck me as rather passive-aggressive. The avatar that you copied was a Fairfoxed version of my face, so to say that your use of it was unsettling would be an understatement. You can see here that I changed my avatar after that.

Let's have a PM that I sent to Joe in response to this:

Flub just seems to want to troll me, so I might not play if he joins. He's currently using my avatar, which is a bit creepy given that it's a Fairfoxed version of my face.
It would be unfair of me to post Joe's reply to this, so I won't. However, after Joe told you to change your avatar, you changed your avatar to his avatar. That seemingly kicked off the "everybody has everyone else's avatar" thing. I noted my objections to this a few times; for reference, I primarily read the forum on my phone, hence the avatar a person uses is my primary means of identifying another player. During the Russian Roulette game that preceded #54 I was away for work and was entirely reliant on my phone to read the game. I found that I had great difficulty knowing who was posting, as well as forming reads on players because the avatars were all scrambled. Your response to me indicating that I didn't want to play under those circumstances was distinctly less than pleasant, and incredibly passive aggressive - it's quite apparent this was a reference to the prior discussion in this thread, which again, you never personally responded to. At this point, it was fairly obvious that you were directing attacks at me out of some kind of personal animus. (I should note that that avatar switching continued into the game, so without a doubt I would not have enjoyed playing.)

Let's have some more PMs from the time, which I sent in conversations to others. Here's one regarding your post:

Also, flub is being unbelievably petty.
He's been at this since the end of the last game, when he switched to my avatar.
When asked about me dropping out of #54 before the game:

Wasn't really last second. I voiced my frustration about the avatar shenanigans a few times, including in the RR game. It seems to be continuing, as I expected. I'm also not keen on Flub's pettiness.
Neither individual spoke at all positively of your post.

I don't recall the details in between then and #55, so I'll skip over that.

[My complete post seems to have hit the character limit, so I'll post the rest in part 2.]
Post edited October 21, 2018 by PoppyAppletree
[Continued from the previous post]

During the game I told you to show respect to your fellow players by putting in some effort rather than using your confirmed Townie status to clown around and make ridiculous claims and arguments, and shoot barbs at others. As you note, you called me a "hateful player". It's hard to see that as anything less than a personal attack, and ZFR evidently saw it that way.

As an extension of my comments made regarding your lack of respect for other players and the way you play: on the whole, I don't find your playstyle valuable to the Town at all, and given that people put weeks or even months into these games, I think that's quite unfair on others. Even when you're Town, your play is so scummy that it creates unnecessary distraction in determing who the scum are, and makes you virtually impossible to trust. That might benefit you when you're Scum ("it's just flub being flub"), but your inscrutability is a liability to your team when you're Town.

With regards to my own reaction to your comments at and about me in-game, your prior conduct made it impossible to tell whether aggressive behaviour and sarcastic barbs directed towards me in the thread were in-game strategy or just a continuation of personal belligerence across several months. Faced with that, I felt it best to drop out of the game for my own sake as well as everyone else's.

Let's have the PMs I sent to ZFR about your behaviour:

He really doesn't seem to care about crossing the line from clowning into actually upsetting others
It's extremely important in a game like this to have a distinction between in game and out of game behaviour and persona, and it's just not there with flub.
I've been trying not to respond to him for the most part because his posts are just largely continued harassment.
And now he's calling ad hominem because he managed to get a rise out of me.
Honestly this is just screwing up my experience of the game.
I know full well that flub is trying to push me out of the GOG Mafia community.
I expressed to Joe that I didn't want to play with flub due to his actions and Joe wasn't impressed with it either, and that's part of why I dropped out in the end.
I don't think it's tenable to play when there's this kind of abusive dynamic where a player is using the framework of a game to advance a grudge.
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Also it's just fucking impossible to separate this out from the current in-game clashes with Hyper and Lift, especially since Lifthrasil just responded to that. I don't want this to flow over into how I interact with Lift, but especially given the "low on a personal level" comment I really can't respond to it without genuine personal hurt.
I don't have any ill feelings towards Lift and I was enjoying sparring with him, but that actually hurts due to the context.
I think it might be best if you sub me out.
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Anyway, I can't address any of this stuff in the game thread because it would be inappropriate to drag personal issues with other players into it, and I can't message other players about it because of the game.
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I genuinely just want to fucking throttle him.
What he's doing is completely fucking inappropriate.
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Suffice to say I'm never playing with flub again. I'd already decided to blackball him from games I run.
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It's not so much that he's not taking the game seriously, which I called out as a player, but that he's using the game to continue a pattern of harassment.
Anyway, I don't care anymore.
I'm done here.
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Also, flub really doesn't know when to stop. I'm not even playing anymore and he's still making jabs at me (the 90% thing). I was curious to see how things panned out, but I think I'm just going to stop following the thread. Best of luck to you with running the game, and to Vitek.
I'd mentioned that my flatmate had been hospitalised (she's doing great now if anyone was wondering), and I was reading posts on my way to and from the hospital to see her. I didn't need shit like that added on top, especially not from a game. (For reference, see my "games are supposed to be fun" comments in #55. I'm not going to bother finding those, but they are very much a response to something that was supposed to be an outlet for stress instead adding to it.)

The upshot of all this is that I don't like your behaviour, and I don't trust you to act honourably and in the spirit of the game.
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PoppyAppletree: In response to this, you changed your avatar to a Cylon toaster - an obvious suggestion of a Mafia claim - during the night phase. This had a substantial tangible effect on the game, as it was noticed by the Town's vigilante, who shot you as a result.
Basing a vig shot off someone switching their avatar to an obvious Mafia reference is a sucker's bet. If that was a major factor in Town's loss, then Town deserved the loss.

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PoppyAppletree: However, after Joe told you to change your avatar, you changed your avatar to his avatar. That seemingly kicked off the "everybody has everyone else's avatar" thing.
Speaking as one of the primary instigators of the avatar switching, and quite possibly the biggest instigator, this had absolutely nothing to do with the extended avatar copying trend.
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PoppyAppletree: In response to this, you changed your avatar to a Cylon toaster - an obvious suggestion of a Mafia claim - during the night phase. This had a substantial tangible effect on the game, as it was noticed by the Town's vigilante, who shot you as a result.
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Bookwyrm627: Basing a vig shot off someone switching their avatar to an obvious Mafia reference is a sucker's bet. If that was a major factor in Town's loss, then Town deserved the loss.
I rather think you've missed the point. The fact that something was communicated during the night phase between two Town players who had no game abilities allowing this was frankly unacceptable.
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Bookwyrm627: Basing a vig shot off someone switching their avatar to an obvious Mafia reference is a sucker's bet. If that was a major factor in Town's loss, then Town deserved the loss.
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PoppyAppletree: I rather think you've missed the point. The fact that something was communicated during the night phase between two Town players who had no game abilities allowing this was frankly unacceptable.
Heh.
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PoppyAppletree: That seemingly kicked off the "everybody has everyone else's avatar" thing.
I just wanted to say that the mass avatar copying started after I fake-signed up Bookwyrm. He copied my avatar; I copied his in return and we just started from there. It wasn't related to anything flub did.

EDIT: Sorry, I see Bookwyrm already mentioned this.
Post edited October 21, 2018 by ZFR