I hadn't thought of it that way. After this post I'm having to rethink my opinion on Joe. I think my basic premise has been that scum wants to act like town, and Joe isn't really acting like town which, writing it out, is a weird argument to have. He hasn't contributed much to the leads discussed by town so far, and the information he has provided hasn't led to any new suspects. I tried to go back through his posts looking for evidence that he was town, but most of what I saw convinced me of him being scum.

Why did my vote on Lift go through but not my vote on GR? I didn't unvote either time. And there wasn't an intervening vote count either, so I had no way of knowing what registered and what didn't.

Sorry, I won't do that again. I was mostly frustrated that my votes didn't go through. Also, you must hate playing with SPF.

I looked up the post (125) that you were referring to. Lift said you tended to be inconsistent at the beginning of games. It's not the beginning anymore.

I hope you can get that fixed soon.

My top picks for scum right now are Joe and agent. RWarehall has enough of a scum/town balance that I don't have a read on him yet.

Joe. He did participate in some of the discussions during D1, but he didn't form any overarching opinions. As has been pointed out, his accusations lack reasoning. When I was looking back through his posts, I also noticed that he kept referencing my RVS vote. I didn't realize how many times he did that at the time, but looking back it seems off.

Agent's posts seem to lack substance. Many replies but not many actual arguments. He cites Pooka's posts a good deal, but doesn't decide one way or another Pooka's alignment. It comes across as trying to look active without providing much useful information.

RWarehall was noticeably absent on D1, only becoming active at the end of the day. He was the first to put a vote on Joe D2, but only after picking me, a more likely lynch. However, his arguments against Joe were good, and I can see it being possible that his vote against me was an extension of that. I'll keep an eye on him.

Joe has already got some pressure on him, agent doesn't. I'd like to see how he responds.
Vote agent

I just hope we don't end up again having to flip/flop in the last hour or make last minute calls (when I'm usually asleep).
I do agree that Joe doesn't looks well at this point. So why start a second wagon (third if we include yours)? Just to get agent say what? He has exactly one vote on him, yours. Why not go ahead and get Joe closer to L, get him either to claim or lynch him. If he flips scum for sure it will make tomorrow easier.

Anyway for now I also think that Joe is in the least good light, so.

vote joe

Oh right. Bit harsh maybe but ok.

It's not, but neither am I making that argument any more.

Did I? What was I saying about it?


People have been going on about softclaiming when no softclaiming occurred. I don't see anything particularly of interest there, I think people are just misunderstanding one another.


Did you say why this is? Sorry if you did. Lift asked why-you're-so-sure and you said you're-not-sure. But why are you most sure of dedo being town?

Did Pooka say "I'll be a certain NK target if I do?"

^ Is this what you mean? I don't read it as 'I'll be Night Killed if I do', but rather "I'll be Night Killed or Lynched if I do" which Pooka has elaborated on since. If he claims Vanilla he gets lynched, if he claims power role he gets night killed.

Although...

Thinking about it...


^ Here Pooka talks about claiming Vanilla Town as a way of avoiding claiming a power role, but doesn't point out that claiming Vanilla would inevitably lead to lynch, so maybe that's not what Pooka was thinking?...
But I guess the main purpose of this post is to point out the ridiculousness of GameRager's logic so it makes sense that he don't mention the other thing.

Are you reading everybody else as Town?

---

As I've said I probably won't have time to write any more today. I'm sure there's stuff I've missed, point it out to me please. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have a bit more time too.

I should vote but I don't have very much conviction in any of my thoughts.
I do reckon Pooka and Lift would have wanted to keep ZFR alive - but maybe that's if they were working on their own. Still, I'll discount them for the moment.

I like that dedo keeps flattering me despite my occasional claim that I find his motivation discomforting. I like to think he would have left off if he were scum (or would he have got bored if he were town and he feels like he needs to keep it up to maintain some image? Hm, nah I'm not sure about that - what do you reckon Dedo?)

I feel fairly committed to the pooka's-not-scum course - I think he's getting a lot of general difficulty from other people but I think he mostly makes sense.

So I should vote for RW, blotunga, Carr or RedFire. Carr's the only one of the three who's not pushing my lynch. And I liked his reasoning for voting RedFire (though I would like to hear more of why-some-surety-regarding-dedo - but even then I think it's not a particularly scummy thing to Town-read someone for no reason. Oh dangit waitabout it is isn't it?..)

I can't decide. I don't have time. Just going to type and see what happens.

Vote blotunga

There you go.

Actually, no.

unvote blotunga

What's blotunga done? I don't like this most recent post of his - he doesn't want to run out of time before the deadline so we should ignore everyone other than Joe?

It seems illogical but - no - actually thinking about it I understand what he means "If you're going to pressure a claim out of someone do it in plenty of time so there's not last-minute faff"

Not sure I particularly like:
Where's the logic in that statement?
But I think it's the sort of thing from blotunga that rubbed people the wrong way in the last game as well. - Anyone who remembers the last game, is that right?

@blotunga -
Can you be more specific?

---

I'd like to hear again from RW.

I don't have time for this!

Vote RWarehall

Okay, it's done.


Sorry for my constant second-guessing myself and difficult-to-followness and general shambolity. This is how my brain.

No. That's wrong.

On the way home I thought to myself "Why didn't anybody answer RW's question about 'is Joe like this every game?'" And then I thought "Well why does he ask that question if he's mafia?" and I couldn't really think of a satisfying answer so... I think I gotta

unvote RWarehall

too.

I was briefly entertained by the thought of a RedFire/Lifthrasil scumteam but I think RedFire's Lifthrasil vote near the end of Day One rules that out.

Huh. And thinkingaboutit RedFire could have voted Pooka there for an easier lynch. So maybe RedFire's not scum. Or pooka is... Does RedFire/Pooka make sense? Maybe not the way they've played today. Or maybe...

Maybe I'm voting for Carr then.

Vote AgentCarr

I don't think that's right either. But that's the best I can do for now. I'm late for band practice now byeeeeee

I'm just happy I have you in my life. I promise it's not AI in any way.

I don't remember the last game as I wasn't in it but I do remember MY last game in which blotunga was another person whose way of playing we abused to push our agenda. He seems similar to then.

Vulpes pilum mutat, non mores.

Now THAT'S a sly insult disguised as a compliment! :-)

I went back and looked. Your vote on me registered because you had unvoted Joe in your previous post. The rule was quite clear: to make a new vote, you must unvote first. I can understand that you were frustrated if you lost track of who you were voting for. But messing around with your votes in a game where the Mod has stated that he would be more strict than other mods and also told us explicitly how to unvote and vote, was dangerous that close to the deadline. And I still have the feeling that your losing track of who you currently voted means that you didn't really care. Now that's not a clear-cut scum tell. Close to the deadline Townies have a vested interest in bringing any lynch-wagon home that they aren't totally opposed to. But still it's something that looks a bit off.

No, he didn't. That was my point. The way he refused to claim would make sense as Vanilla as well as as PR. Therefore it wasn't a soft-claim.

By the way, your argument that ZFR probably was killed by someone who didn't interact much with him on D1 rings true. But that would not only implicate RW but also agent and blotunga, as you suspected yourself. And of course that is again WIFOM. Perhaps ZFR was killed by someone who 'wouldn't have killed him N1'. I'm always a bit suspicious of people who give themselves a pass.

I have been meaning to ask this for a while, since you do this kind of thing repeatedly: what is that supposed to achieve? Is it just an embellishment to illustrate your thought-process? Or is it supposed to be some kind of FOS? An expression of suspicion without actually putting a vote down?

This, however, I can get behind. RW, it still feels like you're playing close to the chest! To answer your question: yes, Joe usually is a quite shrewd player. He starts out with fooling around, making jokes and a bit of nonsense. But later he usually becomes more focused and more serious, if I remember correctly. As I said previously: it isn't D1 anymore. I do have the feeling that Joe's 'start of game' MO lasted longer in this game than it did in other games. However, that is merely a feeling. I didn't go over previous games to check. So my perception may be flawed.

What do you want to say with this quote? That you didn't change your nature compared to the game dedo refers to? In that case this would be another case of LAMIST. Or was that an admission of guilt, stating that although your behavior didn't change, your coat (=alignment) did?

Let's address RedFireGaming and Joe...

I had a post planned for Saturday night where I was going to go through Joe's posts, display the fluff, to really make the case how bad RedFireGaming's post #369 was.

"If this is some kind of evil master plan to trick us into believing you're town, it's working."

The problem was on Monday when I had the time to going through Joe's posts thoroughly, I found far more than just the fluff I remembered. There is clear manipulation, seemingly outright lies about a case against Lift. Going back to post #125 the closest thing to an argument against him is Lift "was too friendly with me in his first post of the game, but that's no real reason." Yet, #155 Joe claims to have made an argument against Lift saying...

"I compare two of Lift's posts. The first says "Joe is typically nonsensical" and the second "Joe voted me: his play is erratic: he must die" Some contradiction there, no?"

But he didn't say that before, only that it was a "stab in the dark"...and so on...that and Joe dropping the LAMIST I'm too active to be scum defense struck a chord.

Here's the problem. I haven't played with Joe before (I don't think). If I have, I don't remember him as I can't recall anyone playing all these "parlor tricks" with random voting, "stabs in the dark", "just follow my lead". But I don't know if this is par for the course for him. I don't seem to be getting answers from those who played with him in the past, so let's try once again.

-------------------------Please respond-----------------------------
Is this something new? Is this how Joe always plays, Town or scum? Dedo, you said you spotted something when Joe was scum last, but are just confused now, does that mean he is acting different or more extreme versus his usual Town or scum game?
-------------------------Please respond-----------------------------

We can't afford to mislynch a 2nd day in a row, so it would be helpful to put this into perspective. I can entertain the fact that some people's way to play the game might be parlor tricks, but I need to know if Joe typically tunnels so much with flimsy arguments if one wants to call them arguments. Because what I see is someone who has at best if Town, tunneled to an extreme based on a seemingly random day 1 push and he doesn't want to let it go. Or at worst a scum seeing his house of cards falling apart and is trying to hold it together with bandaids in a vain attempt to appear to be legitimately scum-hunting. I'll admit, after I called him out, some of his posts are suddenly more about actual game events, and I'll need to re-evaluate that too.

Back to RedFireGaming...
My impression of him from Day 1, was he posted a decent amount but didn't stand out which fit the profile I had laid out when I mentioned Agent at the end of Day 1. That he had a wishy-washy case against Joe where he threw out some superficial arguments but second guessed himself. As such, I found the sudden flip of opinion in #369 completely unjustified for Joe just voting and unvoting Lift.

But, when I ISO'd him, I found his case was not as superficial as I had recalled. That he went out on his own, going after Joe but also having his doubts. That it didn't fit the model of someone going through the motions and mostly avoiding attention to skate by because he was making a case that wasn't anyone else's. What makes it unmemorable is the immediate 2nd guessing of himself.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still baffled by his flop with regards to Joe. I don't get it. But reading through RFG Day 1 doesn't fit a scum profile to me and that vote was unjustified. It doesn't make him Town, just means there isn't enough that one misread means he's not. Joe's ISO was intended to show how bad that flop was, but I made the mistake of not going through RFG's posts before I voted him and sticking to the conclusion I had drawn before Joe's ISO (in part because the post was already too long). I fixed that yesterday morning.

I'll try to hit a few other topics tonight, but no guarantees...

On mobile, so can't quote. Will likely be mobile only for the next few days.

@RFG - So you're voting be because I can't get a read on a particular player? OMGUS! Oh wait....

@Joe - He's been asking questions that don't seem to be coming from Scum. Also, I like his overall tone.

@Joe - Wow, that was a rollercoaster of emotions.

Not much going on, so that'll be all from me.

I was just writing as I was thinking. I could have edited just deleted the vote but writing as I think comes more naturally. The times I voted-unvoted lift and the time I voted-unvoted RW there was time in between the posts where I went away, thought about it and changed my mind. Blotunga I voted by typing 'vote...' then writing the first name that came into my head, and then I felt a reaction of 'no that's wrong' so I wrote it down.

'Foxes don't change their stacks no mores' I believe is the translation.

why should it be bad that he briefly read me as town?

clear manipulation? ò_σ

I still haven't made this clear. When after I post this I'll quote exactly what I was refering to when I say 'argument'

I did let it go - since ZFR died I've not been going for Lift's lunch at all. Did you think I was?

I think you're just reading too much into it - I was being charmingly useless and RedFire was charmed.

Or he thought that people were tending to ease off Joe a bit so he thought he should ease off too... then when pressure got put back on Joe he started joining in. But is 'going with the flow' typical scum behaviour? I don't see much benefit to explicitly town-reading someone just because other people are. But maybe RedFire does... Hm. I hadn't thought of it that way.

the word 'misread' here interests me - what are you refering to?

Okay, this is the 'argument' I am referring to in post 155:

It's not very clear (I should have said "Huh. ò_σ" but I only just learned how to do this expressive raised-eyebrow emoticon. Actually I guess I SHOULD have said "These two posts of Lift's are rather contradictory,and I put it to you that that may be a SCUM TELL" but I didn't really think about it and assumed you could all read my mind. Sorry.)

So - there was no lying about having made an argument - I just stupidly made it very subtly.
- The argument is not a strong one - I'm only going on about it still because RW's misunderstood me.
- Right now I don't much think that Lift is scum. I'm not pushing for lift's lynch now.

Do you follow me?

It wasn't anything specific. More of a continuous gut feeling that kept bugging me until he flipped.

Something that occurred to me earlier today. People kept giving Pooka the benefit of the doubt based on "why would he attract so much attention to himself as scum?" which ultimately is a fair argument. So, why would Joe attract so much attention to himself as scum doing the things he's been doing? In addition he didn't hammer Pooka when he had the chance and that close to the deadline he would have had a perfect excuse to jump in. I believe someone said earlier Pooka and RFG are either not scum together or both are scum. I'm pretty sure the same could be said for Joe and Pooka.

:c

ah. I'm with you now.

It's possible, but I do think it unlikely for someone to night kill ZFR for the WIFOM.
If they did, though,that's exciting! I'm looking forward to learning the reason for choosing ZFR

@scum - I can't wait for end game to find out, just tell me now why you targetted ZFR?

Does that argument give me a pass? I'm not sure I interacted much with ZFR? (did I?)

I do think there are reasons that I wouldn't have killed ZFR (previous game's night 1 - his interaction with lifthrasil - his terribly-timed gamerager vote) so I'll give myself a pass for those instead ;p

---

Carr says "Oh My Rockin' Bod, Joe, Ur Supercool!"
Which I didn't really expect. Dang.

Is anybody scum? Are yous all of you Town?

---

This is slander! Defamation of character! I demand evidence of this 'shrewd'ness! This 'focus' and 'serious'ness! I object absolutely!

And another mobile post. So much happened yet I can't provide as much as that. Sorry for not posting at the times I said I would.

@RW I've never been able to tell apart from Town Joe and Scum Joe. The only time I knew his alignment was when I was scum, and even then, in that same game he was killed by a vigilante Microfish. Actually if I draw from my experience with him in Secret Hitler, he's an easy liberal target for making him look bad. Last game he even used some of these parlor tricks, and us fascists immediately took advantage of that to discredit what he said and get our Hitler installed. I quickly checked what happened: he told someone that Hitler had ousted himself and that she needed to vote yes so he's in or vote no so he's out, and that everybody was waiting for her vote. A fascist supplementscene was the first to call him out and tell him that Hitler never ousted himself, after which Joe explains it was all a parlor trick, but now his position permanently weakened.

TL;DR I can't tell if he's town or scum easily, but his play style makes him ripe for abuse by scum.

@Agent I think the motive for killing ZFR based on that "get back to Lift" quote has something to do with Lift, whether he did it or not. ZFR is killed and Lift implicated as a result. Now that I am thinking about it, it also implicates me since ZFR was one of the people who pushed the lynch forward. In essence...maybe the scum chose him because it gives them a net of two people to cast shade on and use as easy wagons.

About my claim, well, Lift keeps explaining it better than I can. But essentially a claim situation would be "damned if vanilla, damned if PR." I didn't think it would also be "damned if no claim" as I am right now. But I digress.

@Joe, when talking with GR about claims, I was specifically ridiculing his logic without account to anything else about claims. And besides what you said about how my nonclaim read, there's also another layer and the main one actually: "I'm narrowing the potential PR players if vanilla, and getting a PR offed if a PR."