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General discussionForum Mafia #52 - SHODAN's children(1308 posts)(1308 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted October 22, 2017
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Sage103082: Random thought: Maybe if I wonder out loud about something then no one will suspect me or that something.

/raised my eyebrow big time.
mkay.

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flubbucket: Is my action NOT scumhunting??
It's something alright. Scumhunting? I dunno about that.

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dedoporno: Sage, Trent and Leonard, if you want things to start happening differently I suggest to do something about rather than just talking about it. If you don't want waters muddied and achieve a proper lynch start suggesting who that lynch should be.
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Leonard03: Pop open adalia's brain and see what's inside. Either that or possibly ZFR
Um, I don't know how to be more specific.

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adaliabooks: I just typed a massive post on my phone explaining all the stuff I didn't want to go into and then dragged down and refreshed and lost it.
That suuuuucks.

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flubbucket: Know this......I am always town.
Even when he is the arsonist.

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mchack: you don't get to decide that, you're not the dungeon master here.
No I AM the dungeon master. Mwa ha ha haaaaaa.

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HypersomniacLive: \
Which game would that be?
Don't remember.

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HypersomniacLive: It took me literally 6 minutes from start to finish (opening the thread, doing the search with AF, and reading all of the 62, not particularly wordy, posts of his).

Are you seriously saying that you can't spare 6 minutes for something that may help you understand flubbucket's play?

To spare you some time, here's the link to the game thread.
FINE! Mr. Grumpy Pants. I'm sacrificing my precious, precious sleep time for you.
...
That took me NINETEEN minutes. Anyways, you're going to need to explain a bit about what goes on around his play. I took a poke through the later part of the thread and saw dedo self hammer... because game was a forgone conclusion? Also, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here, as from what I see flub had a similar play last game where he was town first day, then converted, then lynched day 2. Am I missing something?

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adaliabooks: Bookwyrm seem a bit quiet too...
Yes, this is odd and unusual.

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HypersomniacLive: I'm sorry, is your name Leonard03, or have you been appointed to speak for him, and I somehow missed it?
He could be that Leonard0ε guy who is extremely evil and should be shot.

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mchack: nope, sorry. thought you maybe didn't remember. But of course, as always there's more to your questions than meets the eye. Really sorry to have hampered your scumhunting there.
Oh, was this an actual serious question? I guess it was, since that's the kind HSL asks.
*sigh* give me a minute
Well, it's certainly not game 30 cause I didn't play in that game.
...
You know what. Maybe I made it up. Can't find the game I'm thinking of anywhere. Or perhaps you know of the game I'm trying to remember?

Also, who are you thinking you'd vote for right now?

Oh, and I think you asked about the part in the town PM where it includes "Dying for your team". I was kind of under the impression that was included in most town PMs? I seem to not be able to access my old chat messages so can't confirm.

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dedoporno: In fact my previous post 404
I couldn't find that post.





Sorry.

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flubbucket: snip
You know, you said anyone who didn't vote for you today was not town. There's only 4 scum in this game, and at the end 5 people will not be voting for you so it's demonstrably no true. Also, if you're so suicidal, then why don't you vote for yourself?

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Krypsyn: The joke wasn't that bad...

Was it?
It was worth of Leonard0ε... that's not a good thing. :P
Posted October 22, 2017
Leonard03 asked me to do things.. let me show you on the doll...

*bump*
Posted October 22, 2017
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Krypsyn: Leonard03 asked me to do things.. let me show you on the doll...

*bump*
Remind me not to ask you for a favour when you are tipsy :P

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Leonard03: You know, you said anyone who didn't vote for you today was not town. There's only 4 scum in this game, and at the end 5 people will not be voting for you so it's demonstrably no true. Also, if you're so suicidal, then why don't you vote for yourself?
... except if you don't vote for yourself that makes 5. Oooooh I get it.
Posted October 22, 2017
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dedoporno: The whole discussion the two of us had is what built the negative read. Accusing me of stuff I didn't even do in your reads is only making it worse.

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mchack: a) painting a silly RVS joke of mine as a "genuine scumslip" - outlined in #254
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dedoporno: I never painted it like this. Recently you changed that to "facilitate adalia's push on it". Right.
the quote you used there is from my adalia read.
the part you put in quotes I never said. we've been over this. this is what I actually said when you asked me how I meant the a) part in my read of you (which doesn't say you were doing any actual painting on the matter yourself only helped adialia doing it):
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mchack: it was this #142 (ftfy) that started it all. every other player immediatly got the joke or chose not to pick on it. (it was rather obvious at the time as I outlined in #254. So you enabled adalia to fabricate a "genuine slip" out of it.
If intentional or inadvertently, I obviously can't know.
--
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mchack: d) his Hypothetical case where he is hypothetically fishing for PR in #270, to which he later conceded he wouldn't actually do that #351
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dedoporno: I'm scum because of hypothetical example that I gave as why I don't want to get into a discussion of power roles. Right.
noone asked you to go into a discussion about power roles back then.
You see how I take care to always emphasize it is hypothetical, so there's no confusion? Yet it's still something you wrote, that helped form my opinion about your alignment, because the example you gave is really astounding (you fishing, 2-3 masons dead both times)

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mchack: e) voting me with his only reason being "mchack is the strongest negative vibe" in #361
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dedoporno: Let me ask you something about this. After everything we went through what would say my feelings towards you were? Mostly positive, mostly Neutral or mostly negative? If it's anything other than the last, please tell me what made you think that way. If it's the last, please tell me how "mchack is the strongest negative vibe" is not describing that?
How would I know your feelings? only you know them. So tell me, do you feel me to be the scummiest player in this game? You are voting me after all. Noone did scummier things than me?

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mchack: I'm not trying to make you have a less negative read about me.
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dedoporno: Neither do I try to change my appearance in your eyes. I just don't appreciate getting mud thrown at me.
yes, that's fine. no-one does. I won't be all over you for some "self-preservation instict kicking in to not stick out"(#209), no worries.
Posted October 22, 2017
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Sage103082: Please show me where I asked someone to do something? I thought I was asking them questions about their actions / words to gain knowledge. You know, Kinda how the game is played.
Of course you should ask questions, please do. I trying to encourage more ""relevant" questions (what you started to do in the more recent posts is a lot closer to what I have in mind) and more often rather than scolding someone for not giving scum ideas or taking away from the moment with moot points, or boobs. Actually, on a second thought I don't mind the boobs that much but more of the latest.


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Leonard03: I couldn't find that post.
Funny :)


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mchack: this is what I actually said when you asked me how I meant the a) part in my read of you (which doesn't say you were doing any actual painting on the matter yourself only helped adialia doing it)
Sorry, you are correct, I quoted adalia's list first item rather than mine. Mine says:

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mchack: a) helping adalia in painting a silly RVS joke as a "genuine scumslip". #145 - outlined in #254
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mchack: So tell me, do you feel me to be the scummiest player in this game? You are voting me after all. Noone did scummier things than me?
I am voting you because I find you the scummiest. That implies that even if others did something scummy I don't find it as scummier as your play. I guess you are trying to turn things around me not condemning adalia for trying to actively push for a Townie lynch - I don't agree with some of his logic on how the scum would play things out with the claims or hunting down the vanillas being a good thing but I see how removing the "known" vanilla is a sensible action when there aren't better options on the table.
Posted October 22, 2017
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mchack: How would I know your feelings? only you know them. So tell me, do you feel me to be the scummiest player in this game? You are voting me after all. Noone did scummier things than me?
Or maybe he thinks you're the prettiest princess, jeez kids with the nihilism these days.

Anyway here's' the people I would vote for being the prettiest princess:
krypsyn - Haphazard voting and bit quiet for me but I like his vote counts. Got a question for him though.
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Krypsyn: in this case, actually has a higher likelihood of hurting town than scum, because of this knowledge inconsistency
How would one go about analyzing wagons in this case though? Lets say mafia gets lucky and offs a mason what then? Placing too much trust or emphasis on one role ain't a good plan IMO.
adalia - Came out looking bad in that exchange with mchack and I don't buy the town vanilla lynch is good for town on d1 theory. I will vote depending on his responses to questions.
sage - Some things which tick my scumdar off when it comes to sage
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Sage103082: Feels a little weird someone mentions you have been quiet and then your back commenting on someone who is voting and you are not. Same as hyper. Scum has the option to let town lynch themselves and just watch.
Which didn't make much sense to me as I pointed out in post 393
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Sage103082: Can we please stop giving scum ideas on what to do over the night?
Lets stop discussing what scum might do over the night since they might use our ideas? Look up choice overload for me.
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HypersomniacLive: Is there more coming from you?
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Sage103082: Yes. Don't eat yellow snow. And not voting and just letting everyone else vote isnt town either.
Somehow this seems like someone lashing out, then again I dunno sage that well. So I could be wrong, will wait for explanation on this reaction to a seemingly innocuous question.

Since voting adalia would put him in a position for a quick hammer before he even gets back, I'd go with sage to see how things go there.

Vote sage
Posted October 22, 2017
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mchack: Let me ask you a question:

You are scum, you are at L-1, you claim mason, lynch disperses (but now you have to be really afraid of the nk from the other scum team. They don't know you false claimed. They think they found a mason. Real masons just laugh about it and go on. They wouldn't counterclaim, why would they? For them the fakeclaim is a sure scum tell. Don't have to out themselves just because they know 1 scum for sure now. let's say this goes on. not all are nightkilled or even real masons get nightkilled. We'll have the flips. Only the real masons will flip mason and nothing can prevent a real mason from flipping so. This means as soon as 3 masons have flipped any other claim for mason from living persons is automatically a sure scum tell.

Still so sure scum will simply claim mason and thereby we can never lynch other than vanilla until all masons have claimed together?
nope, claiming mason will kill scum for sure, sooner or later. So it's back to simple scumhunting and lynching the scumiest and we need all the vanilla we have for that, too.
You are entirely missing the point.

Claiming mason isn't a good claim, it's the ONLY claim. Yes, scum are going to die in the night if they claim mason (although even that isn't guaranteed. Why kill a mason once you know who they are? You can avoid them and go for a conversion instead).
But if it's between that and being lynched, of course they will claim mason.
As for what I would do?
If I was almost guaranteed to die in the night I would take my risky slightly suicidal conversion shot, because what is there to lose? And if it hits then we are no better off (assuming the scum is NK'd), and in fact probably worse off because someone who was town and who was read as town is now scum.
And if it doesn't their buddy no knows for sure who a mason or other scum is.

Admittedly that point only really stands if everyone agrees that claimed vanillas have to be lynched, which I thought they would but obviously they don't. In that case claiming vanilla isn't an instant death knell for scum.

As for the second part, as soon as two masons are dead then there is no way to verify the remaining mason claims as being true or false (assuming they never claimed and confirmed each other before death). Which means that we have to go from not lynching any masons to lynching all of them, and at some point we will hit town in doing so (and while we are doing that scum will be converting us behind our backs).

What we need to do is prevent conversions. If by tomorrow we haven't lynched scum and they get two conversions (unlikely, but getting more and more possible as this day drags on) then town is in a really bad place. Out of 11 players 6 of them would be scum. Sure, they're not on the same team, but it's hard enough for town to agree a lynch without two rival teams of scum trying to control things too.

Even if we hit scum today if they can pull off two conversions we are still in a really bad position, so everything we do should be trying to stop conversions from happening.
We do that by
a) Killing claimed vanillas
b) Trying not to get our masons outed
Posted October 22, 2017
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Sage103082: Please show me where I asked someone to do something?
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Krypsyn: On the doll?!
Spat coffee on this one. XD


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Leonard03: ...........

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flubbucket: snip
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Leonard03: You know, you said anyone who didn't vote for you today was not town. There's only 4 scum in this game, and at the end 5 people will not be voting for you so it's demonstrably no true. Also, if you're so suicidal, then why don't you vote for yourself?

...........
Reading my posts you will find me stating specifically "I am not suicidal" and for the very reason "I am not voting myself."
Posted October 22, 2017
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trentonlf: I did not take into consideration that both scum teams could try to convert flub at the same time or that both scum teams might target other players for the NK. So now more so than before I will not be voting flub and don’t think he is the necessary lynch today.
Seriously... you felt the need to say that out loud and give scum more ideas?
I know I'm not really the best to comment as I've probably said far too much about strategies etc. already, but I really don't think it was necessary to spell this out, unless you are trying to sign post the other scum team...

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adaliabooks: [...] I think flub needs to be lynched for the reasons I've already outlined. [...]
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HypersomniacLive: Something crossed my mind that would be hilarious if it happened.
Was that what you were trying to avoid saying?

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adaliabooks: [...] So let me ask you a question. How many masons (real or otherwise) are we going to push to claim before we do lynch a vanilla townie? [...]
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HypersomniacLive: Is this in the context of D1 only, or of future Days too?
Mostly today, by tomorrow the masons claiming or being outed isn't as disastrous for town (and we are going to need to start killing scum, I just don't see it happening today)

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Hunter65536: How does people posting who they think is scum tip off actual scum teams in anyway? These lists are based on who people think to be scummy rather than results of some investigative role, thus not very accurate and sometimes not accurate even if you pool opinions on this.

Which comes at a great cost to town though, the whole point of d1 is to analyze wagon formed on the lynched player and discussions which lead up to the lynch. Now d2 start will not differ much from d1 in anyway in terms of useful information that town has at hand.
Well lets say five people post that they find Leonard very scummy and they happen to be right. Maybe the other scum team had found him to be quite townie but now that his possible scuminess is pointed out that team decide not to try convert him.

Or say no one lists dedo as scummy, suddenly scum might think, "maybe that very townie player is a mason, I should shoot them or avoid them when looking to convert"

And do you think there is nothing to be gained from flub's lynch?
Who is most likely to want a claimed vanilla alive tonight? Town or scum?
And you can look at who is over eager to lynch him or who was against it but voted anyway (both of which can be scum tells in different circumstances)

Lynching flub would in no way cause a wasted wagon or lose the chance for analysis.

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Sage103082: You seem very sure what scum would do is down to almost being lynched.
Well I do find you scummy as hell, your logic on making sure the mason go to tomorrow is spot on.

I just really dont feel flub is scum. Why would we not try to lynch scum today and just give in to lynching town? And the comment on getting rid of vanillas is eye brow raising and how are you do sure that scum would take out a vanilla townie over night?

None because the masons should be smart enough not to claim at all even if down to the lynch. Do not give scum anything at all is the smartest move. IMO
I'm not sure what that first sentence is supposed to mean...

Neither do I. But he will be tomorrow.
I'm not sure, but that's what we want to ensure (or other scum preferably, but I've already outlined why that probably isn't likely N1).
Once it becomes clear who is who (and it's only a matter of time really) then vanilla townies become a liability as they are possible to convert. So ideally we want scum to shoot them (which they will want to avoid, and they will want to avoid lynching them to keep a good pool of possible converts) instead of masons.

Wait.
You are suggesting a mason at L-1 shouldn't claim and should just get lynched?
Why?
If lynching a claimed vanilla is doing scums job for them why is it better to let masons die unclaimed instead of leaving scum to shoot them at night?
I'm surprised no one else has questioned this logic...

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dedoporno: What? How is that not the best position?! Or do you mean that in the context of a knowing everyone's role?
Obviously knowing the masons too, but even without it makes it far more likely for scum to risk a conversion and be successful N1, by which time even with one scum lynched (because we know who they are) they are almost in control of the lynch...



Working again tonight so probably won't be around much until tomorrow (and maybe not much then, it's another busy day, sofa shopping and work).
I'll be checking the thread and will obviously do my best to make an appearance if a deadline is announced.
Posted October 22, 2017
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trentonlf: I did not take into consideration that both scum teams could try to convert flub at the same time or that both scum teams might target other players for the NK. So now more so than before I will not be voting flub and don’t think he is the necessary lynch today.
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adaliabooks: Seriously... you felt the need to say that out loud and give scum more ideas?
I know I'm not really the best to comment as I've probably said far too much about strategies etc. already, but I really don't think it was necessary to spell this out, unless you are trying to sign post the other scum team...
So you think trent might be scum? Also why do you and sage assume that scum teams don't get these ideas by themsleves?

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adaliabooks: Well lets say five people post that they find Leonard very scummy and they happen to be right. Maybe the other scum team had found him to be quite townie but now that his possible scuminess is pointed out that team decide not to try convert him.

Or say no one lists dedo as scummy, suddenly scum might think, "maybe that very townie player is a mason, I should shoot them or avoid them when looking to convert"

And do you think there is nothing to be gained from flub's lynch?
Who is most likely to want a claimed vanilla alive tonight? Town or scum?
And you can look at who is over eager to lynch him or who was against it but voted anyway (both of which can be scum tells in different circumstances)

Lynching flub would in no way cause a wasted wagon or lose the chance for analysis.
About the first part I still think it won't be as exact as you claim it to be but I agree lucky strikes are possible that way. Secondly about the wagon I'd say it would be muddied to say the least and finding scum from tells you've mentioned would be more of a crapshoot.
Posted October 22, 2017
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adaliabooks: ...
I don't know... I saw the reasoning behind "a known vanilla townie will be converted and is a liability; better to lynch him". But after reading others' posts I see that lynching him as a townie is a bad idea.

Which has me thinking. So far you all said that his soft claim means he's a townie. But the net result of his action is that he is not going to be lynched today. He could have foreseen that and counted on other players being intelligent enough not to lynch a townie. So he could be scum trying to fool masons/townies or a mason trying to fool scum. (Yeah, he could be a townie, a scum or a mason. I hope that narrows it down).

I'm not voting for him, but I am not completely taking for granted that he's a townie wither.
Posted October 22, 2017
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Sage103082: [...] Wow. You ok Hyper. You seem a bit snippy.

1. Your putting words in my mouth. That alone is scummy. I also had my vote on krypsen. Yes it did start as a play joke day one, however, his lack of talking and just voting however was something I found very scummy and was happy with my vote. Also if my lack of posting has been a issue please take it up with the mod, I do not need snide remarks.

2. Once again words in my mouth I did not say. But thank you for your smart ass comments, they definitely help move the game forward.

3. I DO FIND ADALIA SCUMMY. My comment about scum having the option to sit and let town lynch themselves is something that can happen. my comment was intended to show why I was commenting. If my comment on scum can let town lynch themselves is so off base for you, then does that mean all this talk about what may or may not happen during the night or days to come, does that fall into the same category to you?
I'm fine, thank you. Until the first thing as a response to a simple question I asked is "Don't eat yellow snow". That's as far as smart arse comments are concerned.

The only issue your lack of posting poses for me is you being scum lurking your way to N1, and making a town-appearing show at D1 dusk. I find it interesting that you take such issue with my comment, and try to make it sound like I was taking a personal stab at you.

What words am I putting in your mouth? You admit that your initial vote on Krypsyn was a joke one that only became a serious one once you returned to the game and caught up, after which you switched to adaliabooks because you find him scummier.
Your next comment was not simply your take on the lack of votes from some, but frowning upon them for commenting on people who are voting - it's right there in your post #392.

Yes, scum letting town lynch themselves can, and does, happen. I just don't see why you're concerned with that when the player with the leading wagon is the one you're voting as the one you find scummy as hell, hence my question.

But I don't quite get what you're trying to say with "my comment was intended to show why I was commenting".

As for the talk about what may or may not happen N1 and beyond, my position is already on record ( post #387; second from bottom).
However, I don't follow the thought process of going from point A (my question to you) to point B (your question to me).


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Sage103082: @Hyper - My post came off a little to snippy back at you. I do apologize It went to far. It was meant in jest to get my point across.
Apology accepted, and apologies back if my reference to your lack of posting came across as a personal/out-of-game attack on you; it was in no way meant or intended as such.


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Sage103082: [...] None because the masons should be smart enough not to claim at all even if down to the lynch. [...]
After rereading, I was going to ask you about this, but I see adaliabooks already covered it (post #429).



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mchack: nope, sorry. thought you maybe didn't remember. But of course, as always there's more to your questions than meets the eye. Really sorry to have hampered your scumhunting there. [...]
*sigh*

But now that Leonard03 replied - do you remember? Were you scum in game #30? Was he playing in that game?


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mchack: [...] not at all meaningless. By that time (#369) I was rather convinced he's town and was very angry at his play. it is my earnest believe that it is a bad play to go "vote me, I am the lynch today" as town. But it's a game and he did what he thinks is right, but he can't decide for all of us how this game goes on and that what I now believe is a town player is the lynch Day 1. Hence why I said: "you don't get to decide that" [...]
And where exactly does the dungeon master bit fit in with all this?


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mchack: [...] why even bring it up? that not scummy to you? for me it is. [...]
Depends on a number of factors.



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flubbucket: Also if I don't get lynched today, I'm going to kill all of you in your sleep,




And pee on your faces.
Yeah well, not trying to start a peeing contest, but one with a sleeping disorder may be inclined to pee back on yours.



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Krypsyn: The joke wasn't that bad...

Was it?
This one's better.



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flubbucket: Use it to exfoliate.
This one's even better.



@Lifthrasil, two questions:

1. What resolution order are you using?
2. Does a Convert have full access to the respective scum chat during the Night they're converted? (it's not clear in the setup doc)
Posted October 22, 2017
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Hunter65536: So you think trent might be scum? Also why do you and sage assume that scum teams don't get these ideas by themsleves?

About the first part I still think it won't be as exact as you claim it to be but I agree lucky strikes are possible that way. Secondly about the wagon I'd say it would be muddied to say the least and finding scum from tells you've mentioned would be more of a crapshoot.
I didn't, had him as quite town leaning for most of the game, but I'm starting to doubt that read definitely. As Hyper has already pointed out his intention to vote for me (or not) comes off as quite odd. I currently am the logical wagon, whether you believe flub should be lynched or not there is no denying I'm currently the best bet for securing a lynch. So the way he phrased that sounds a bit like scum who is expecting me to flip town (I won't say know because in this game scum wouldn't know that I'll flip town) and doesn't want to be on the wagon.

I don't, but they may very well not get these ideas so why hand them to them on a plate unless absolutely necessary?

I disagree. I don't think a flub lynch is any more muddied then any other at this point.

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ZFR: I don't know... I saw the reasoning behind "a known vanilla townie will be converted and is a liability; better to lynch him". But after reading others' posts I see that lynching him as a townie is a bad idea.

Which has me thinking. So far you all said that his soft claim means he's a townie. But the net result of his action is that he is not going to be lynched today. He could have foreseen that and counted on other players being intelligent enough not to lynch a townie. So he could be scum trying to fool masons/townies or a mason trying to fool scum. (Yeah, he could be a townie, a scum or a mason. I hope that narrows it down).

I'm not voting for him, but I am not completely taking for granted that he's a townie wither.
But why?
I admit mchack has a good point in saying that we will know if he is likely to have been converted (in that there will be no NK or only 1 NK) but if that is the case we will just have to lynch him tomorrow and scum get a free day anyway where people probably aren't going to be looking too hard for them.
I really don't see why it's better to let him live if we're most likely going to have to kill him (or have a question mark over his alignment for the rest of the game).

I have considered this too. And I wouldn't put it past flub (the town arsonist, you should read that game if you have time it was fun), but frankly if as scum he decided to outwardly demand to be lynched and survived then I think he deserves the win.
But it is the secondary reason I believe he is a good lynch, in case the whole thing is actually very carefully considered WIFOM..
Posted October 22, 2017
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adaliabooks: Seriously... you felt the need to say that out loud and give scum more ideas?
I know I'm not really the best to comment as I've probably said far too much about strategies etc. already, but I really don't think it was necessary to spell this out, unless you are trying to sign post the other scum team...
You seem to think scum are not capable of thinking for themselves. Do you think scum are going to just blindly post in their QT as to what they are wanting to do without talking about it among themselves? Do you think because someone is scum that they all of a sudden drop IQ points and can only use ideas posted in the game?
Posted October 22, 2017
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adaliabooks: Seriously... you felt the need to say that out loud and give scum more ideas?
I know I'm not really the best to comment as I've probably said far too much about strategies etc. already, but I really don't think it was necessary to spell this out, unless you are trying to sign post the other scum team...
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trentonlf: You seem to think scum are not capable of thinking for themselves. Do you think scum are going to just blindly post in their QT as to what they are wanting to do without talking about it among themselves? Do you think because someone is scum that they all of a sudden drop IQ points and can only use ideas posted in the game?
This is my concern too.
In a normal game I assume you aren't giving any information to mafia no matter what you say (since they already know everything on who's with/against them), but with 2 scum factions by unmasking one, you could be helping the other? But they can easily think of that too.
What's QT? I can't find it on the acronym mafia page
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Commonly_Used_Abbreviations
which is where I check there for stuff like EBWOP. (I can't find IQ either, but I assume you just meant IQ ;))
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussionForum Mafia #52 - SHODAN's children(1308 posts)(1308 posts)
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