The Greater Good
@lift Ah, my bad then. Looks like I misread that exchange.
@dedo The test was to see what would happen if someone doesn’t participate in the roll call not if someone starts another during an existing one. Lift did come through on that and we came to conclusion that it was just a flavor thing kinda like how NWA does in the movie everytime someone says that phrase, looks like you had a misunderstanding there. It does feel like an AtE to me as HSL suggested. However I’ve seen lurkers given a wide berth compared to active people which has led to scum victories in the past. Hence, I think this bit ought to be ignored while figuring out his alignment but definitely something worth discussing post game.

The Greater Good

I screwed up a previous one. Doing this now so I don't miss this one.

I went back to re-read the whole thing and you are correct. I read that wrong as the idea being to prove a second call won't matter, but it wasn't.

@Lift, even though you didn't start your own call I'm still wrong here since my expectations were of something else. Apologies for that. You can scrape that off of my list. As suggested, I'm not joining your call.

@HSL: sorry. I understood your question wrong. Yes, I don't understand why flubb plays the way he does. I can only speculate.

First point: My speculation was, that in regular games Day 1 is mostly useless anyhow and therefore flubb some time decided to be useless on Day 1 too to extract the most fun for himself out of a not-fun game-start. Because let's be honest: Day 1 is never fun. At least I hate it.

Second point: flubb himself made a case against himself based on that he is known to contribute more later but also is a likely conversion target and therefore has a high likelyhood of being useful for the wrong side later. I understand that concern. Which is why I suggested to lynch him tomorrow if we don't get anything more solid.

Third point: what I don't understand is: flubb is aware of the problem his usual playstyle creates in the specific setting of a cult game. But he decides not to change his problematic style but rather suggests to lynch him. That's what I actually don't understand. Irrespective of faction that he might have.

So, he has maximized his uselessness intentionally. That makes him an acceptable lynch target. But it doesn't necessarily make him CL. It could be all a brazen play, but I just don't know.

I hope that was now a bit clearer and less mis-understanding producing.

I just want to clarify a few things about the roll calls:

The roll calls are <redacted by JMich>. Whether <redacted by JMich> will <redacted by JMich>. If <redacted by JMich> or <redacted by JMich> then there will be <redacted by JMich>. So, my advice would be <redacted by JMich> and <redacted by JMich> or <redacted by JMich>.

I hope that clarifies matters. As always, I am here to <redacted by JMich>. :)

The Greater Good

@trentonlf: You know you just answered another roll call via a quote. That on purpose?

AI meaning Alignment Information? Sorry, read that abbreviation before but not sure what it means.
But if it means something on that ground then yes, it's not that helpful for finding scum, because both might have reasons to concede. But I really think scum would have a little more reason to push for a specific lynch on less ground than town. Since he probably has a plan laid out on who to recruit at night and how that will affect the next day.

"might have an agenda," As opposed to just going with the flow, I guess. ... "that you might want to get rid of" as opposed to recruiting.

When you put it like that :/ well, sure. Scum probably concedes as easily as town. More so even? Only one here knows. (well, three if you count the mods)

Sure: #25 for instance
#174 which is the point where lift unvoted, there wasn't a strong argument in place, granted. It was more like his believe on catching scum (or getting the most bothersome townie lynched ;) was waning over the course of the following ~60 posts and then he conceded.
So yeah, I concede, the whole conceding argument that made lift seem more townie for me might be moot.
Still after the ISO of Lift, I still don't think he's our best bet on hitting scum, since he's way to engaged, calling out people making enemies, not something I at least would do as scum.

btw, nice tactic. asking a bunch of question, which make me re-read again to find the answers to and bam: I have a slightly differend opinion.

Oh, my more ISOs to go through. You really make people work you know ;)
1. yep. I think I do. He was pretty nice to everyone not making accusations, nor creating waves, could be a good hiding spot. But then he's also pretty engaged. And so are you. Still, dedo got trent on his back, you haven't had anyone bothering you at least when I did my re-read post and night is coming fast, so I asked about your stance and then flub voted you and I merely said depending on your answer I might join him.

2. hmm. here #213 he made a firm stance on him being the best lynch for day 1.
maybe also #105 where he voted Sage for LAMIST reasons. and only took the vote off when Sage was replaced.
But I know what you mean. Firm stance are scarce and in light of the whole conceding argument above maybe not a good indicator either way. But I still think CL would be in a more comfortable position when he'd be playing like HSL right now than when he'd be playing like Flub.

Since Wyrm suggested to make CLs choice more interesting. If he's gone CL won't have to bother thinking about that (and maybe even getting rid of a Power Role in the process)

Yep. Look at me I am so Town. Well, Scum-me would be rather indifferent about that, wouldn't he? He knows who is scum and who he'll try to convert, so other than trying not to get lynched himself, he's fairly uninterested.
But then again, he might be interested in who are people you're prepared to get on a train on, so yeah maybe scum-me would ask a lot of questions.... O.O

Thank you very much. You're very helpful.

A couple of rereads? holy crap. But yes I'm anticipating that.

As for stances: here's mine.
Not prepared to lynch either wyrm or flub today, (because of the chance of hitting PR, but as said before tomorrow it's something else completely. each could be converted tonight)
Also less inclined to vote for the very engaged players Trent, Dedo or Lift.

Which leaves HSL and Hunter as my voting options this evening (barring that the deadline hits us (isn't is supposed to come tonight or early tomorrow morning?)

@Hunter, what's going through your head these days (damnit I'm not so good with questions as HSL is)

No, I post from my phone 75% of the time or more and it’s easier to leave a reply with all the text as it is rather than parse it down. I wish posting from my phone was easier but sadly I don’t see it getting easier on the gog website.

The Greater Good

Disclaimer: I've only skimmed past post #257, and won't be addressing any new posts in this to keep things clean and neat.


Persons of interest for Today are Lifthrasil, Hunter65536, and dedoporno.

The reason I asked Bookwyrm627 for his input on Hunter65536's posts is because I was reading them as rather evasive and avoiding to go on record with specifics, after throwing out two names as giving him bad vibes. The latter came only after Bookwyrm627's post #152, and read to me as an attempt to differentiate himself from the rest of the group mentioned by Bookwyrm627 while doing a bid of testing the waters.

His later reads are very, very neutral, at best; he's still not committing, except for a FoS on Lifthrasil.

Now I'm reading his post #257, and can't help but raise an eyebrow and wonder:

1. "@lift Ah, my bad then. Looks like I misread that exchange."

Did he go back to reread said exchange, and acknowledges that he misread it? The "looks like" indicates that he didn't, plus if he had reread it, he'd have seen that he wasn't mistaken about the context (more on this a bit later).

2. "It does feel like an AtE to me as HSL suggested. However I’ve seen lurkers given a wide berth compared to active people which has led to scum victories in the past. Hence, I think this bit ought to be ignored while figuring out his alignment but definitely something worth discussing post game."

[emphasis added]

Does Hunter65536 understand the concept of AtE and how it's used by scum when getting, and more importantly when remaining, in the spotlight? If he does, I can't quite get why he says it "ought to be ignored" in relation to figuring out Lifthrasil's alignment. If he doesn't, and his opening seems to indicate it's not the case, shouldn't he be asking for clarification instead of telling us to ignore it?

I'm undecided if it's CL going softly about achieving a mislynch, or townie treading really careful for the case he's recruited later on; his post #257, on top of his previous ones, reads to me more like the former than the latter.


Lifthrasil has made a number of questionable posts.

I've already covered a number of things in previous posts regarding his exchanges with Bookwyrm627 and his stance on him. He claims he did see some merit in Bookwyrm627's play (which came much later in the course of events, and only after it was pointed out), yet was all over him for quite a while, and backed down rather reluctantly, and definitely not because of strong arguments presented to him, as mchack thinks (or thought).

I will point out that for someone finding others defensive, first trentonlf (posts #56 and #196), then Bookwyrm627 (post #168), he himself got increasingly defensive as scrutiny and pressure continued, with the peak being his angry AtE outburst in post #250.

For instance, take his post #245 where he admits of freely interpreting Bookwyrm627's words, yet not exactly backing down from that interpretation, all the while he jumped on both Hunter65536 and me for allegedly misrepresenting what he's said, and demanding we stop it and read more carefully (and yes, I saw his later post on the matter).

I've already laid out things regarding myself in my post #252. Regarding Hunter65536, in his post #230, he specifically referred to Lifthrasil dodging Bookwyrm627's question of post #172 (point B) in his reply-post #174, which is the case, imo. Yet Lifthrasil in his post #233 says that Hunter65536 may well be misrepresenting the whole exchange on purpose (while one could say it's what Lifthrasil does in that post).
And as I said, Hunter65536 accept fault on the matter, which doesn't help clear things up.

Last but not least, and on top of all this, I'm getting more of a game #46 vibe from him, or perhaps more accurately a game #49 (as we have a single scum right now).


Now, dedoporno... dedoporno's more refined play makes him a different case altogether; it's quite unlikely to catch him in a slip or mistake, especially on D1.

Regarding his exchanges with trentonlf - it's not like dedoporno hasn't played with trentonlf before, and it's not uncommon for trentonlf to call for votes to be placed, especially at the eve of a weekend preceding a deadline; I'd not readily classify that as "rushing the vote".
The whole time of their exchanges nobody had more than a single vote on them, so the "hastening" of votes, and forcing an (early) claim by placing someone at L-2/L-1 (as if town ever agrees this easily on a lynch candidate on D1), and in turn not allowing for other discussions to be had, doesn't ring particularly convincing to me as dedoporno's reason for questioning and engaging trentonlf on the matter to a leaning to the excessive side degree.

It's also quite well known that dedoporno doesn't vote all that much early on, as either alignment, so him linking the "not making waves" directly to him not voting didn't feel natural, and using that to link to a "bitch I might be" picture felt pretty forced; the joke was not made at all, and the moment for it had already passed, imo.

Up to this moment, he hasn't addressed my latest questions to him, even though he addressed Lifthrasil, and was on and off a few times while I was doing my rereads and typing this. He may have just overlooked them, then again, he's not particularly happy with my (persisting) questioning of him when he's not town.

While I agree with a good chunk of what he's said, dedoporno's more than capable of saying, questioning and doing things in a townie manner, and I have to agree with trentonlf about tone here; I get quite a game #49 vibe.


Thoughts?

Please, point me towards the question(s) I've missed and I'll address them to the best of my capabilities.

For the record, I'm not happy with you persisting as either alignment since it becomes annoying at some point and I don't like the idea of accumulating a bad general feeling.

For the last time I'll address the topic of why I questioned trent and if he was pushing for a claim to get the game going. Feel free to read it in any way you like.

The Greater Good

Post #249.


That's what you said in game #49 too.

And sorry I'm not in the habit of not asking for clarification when I feel it's needed, or letting things that stand out to me slip by. If you feel it's an insurmountable obstacle in playing together, we can talk it over post-game, and agree to stay out of each others way; no hard feelings.



A heads up to all.

I've asked the mod for a deadline extension as a surgical procedure in the family is scheduled for tomorrow, so my availability will depend on how things go, but I don't expect to be on much for the next couple of days, and I'd like to be around for EoD.

Will be back on later tonight, and address other posts then.

Never mind, I found it. I missed the whole post.

Since mchack joined he didn't do anything to worsen his position but is getting more involved which is a good start.

What do you mean what's the purpose? To see what he'll respond like. He mentioned that the CL would probably try to get a bothersome townie out of his way for free during the day, so I wanted to see what his choices would be and the reasoning behind them and then see how that aligns with his play and pushes. Or maybe it's the exact opposite. Or something entirely different. Things that may uncover a pattern.

The second point of who Hijack listed and what he did isn't something I remember or looked for honestly, but I don't see why that should be a reason not to ask if I'm interested in the response.


Does someone else have problem with posting?! HSL managed to post before me and I have been trying for half an hour.


The one where you were scum of your own? Sure.

No need to apologize, it's your preferred way of playing. Me not liking it is my problem, but as you have seen I always try to respond to you if I see that there is something left to be clarified. What I don't like it iterating over the same stuff, but so far I don't think we have done that here (well, a bit with Trent :)).

As for not playing together, if I didn't feel like playing with you or anyone else I wouldn't be in the game :) I tend to give myself the luxury of joining games late so I can both clear up my schedule and pick who I would like to play with.


On the non-game stuff - I hope will be well with you and your loved ones.

oh, my. what a read. Not, not making waves and definitly engaged. I think I won't be voting you right now, cause my reason of suspecting you was mostly about keeping too neutral, which seemed a safe spot for scum to hide, but I think that's not the case anymore. But what do I know. Anyway the referring to older games is a bit unfair, since I haven't read them. (Am I the only one?) Care to leave a little management summary of the part you are referring to, too? (not about to read through those games now, got my head full enough as it is)

Which leaves only hunter on my goto list (after which it would be one of the more engaged players I listed) but after you went over him, what's left for me to say? well the ISO is a rather short read, which is good (for me, as my head starts to hurt going back and forth through the posts)

So @hunter, uhm, how do you plead? ah, I'm crap at this. how do I go about putting pressure on someone. Oh I know

vote hunter

ah that's the one. ok now reasons: uhm, scum is hiding somewhere. You have the best hiding spot! Come out with your hands up! uhm, damnit. I know I should have good reasons when voting for someone but that's all I can come up with. You don't appear all that scummy to me. Just rather silent, but thats the thing isn't it? being lurky is a good way of not getting lynched as scum. And as I skimmed the post game of the last cult c9 everyone congratulated you on being a great scum player back then. So you do know how it's done.
Well, I know all this means nothing, but night is coming and no-lynch is bad and you are my best bet on hitting scum right now.

I'm back from my trip, but the Greater Good dictates that I won't be able to monitor the thread all that much for the next few days. Since a player also has a family medical procedure, deadline is now Friday Evening to Early Saturday (depending on how tired I feel on Friday).

Except that if the other party is also a townie, they can't know for certain that you're a townie (on D1 of all Days), so it's not necessarily casting shade with the purpose you describe. I'd understand it if you'd been suspicious of Lifthrasil before, i.e. you had reasons to think him scum, hence this act was more likely to come from a scum mindset for you (and why I asked you of other possible reasons), but by your own admission, this is the only reason he qualifies as likely being the CL.

Putting it another way - if this is the only reason you suspect him, what makes you so sure he's not a misguided townie?

Oh come on, don't take it so personal; you've done plenty of voting as scum for no (real) good reason, and I'm sure you're going to do it again.



If he did change his D1 play, and became helpful (mchack thinks he's been plenty helpful), would you still think of him as townie as you do now? If he had made some play that indicated he doesn't want to be lynched (not that I think that he actually wants to be lynched now that he suggested it), would you brush it off the way you did his request to be lynched? Given how he's been playing recently, which play would increase his chances as CL to survive D1?



Thanks for answering.

My point with the bit about HijacK was - how much can you trust the response?


Please, I was Edward Tomas Bell, town's good little JOAT Peace Officer.


The difference being that you and I may not see what still needs to be clarified in the same way, more so when as town (or lonesome third party) I have no way of knowing if you're being sincere or just trying to get rid of me because you feel cornered. This applies even more to reiterating things - when I insist it's because something in your initial response doesn't sit well with me, or seems/is contradictory, so reiterating the same stuff again and again isn't what I'm looking for, nor is it going to get me off your back.


And thanks for the wishes, appreciated.