don't forget to + your mod, folks!

You and your technicalities. :p

Last time I heard, the real world is practical. xD

the world is practical...ly losing it's collective mind

Why? I don't get it.

Current votes:
docbear1975 - yogsloth; dedoporno; bler144; Bookwyrm627; Sage103082
HijacK - Lifthrasil; trentonlf
Lifthrasil - drealmer7; HijacK; cristigale

Not voting: JMich; HypersomniacLive; docbear1975; flubbucket

Majority has not been reached.

I'm not going to follow through an allegory and story to determine who "Bob" might be referring to. If I were going to do that, I'd count votes in Chinese...the unvote was clear though...

So, ramblings of a retiree

Reading my PM, I did smile. It is a role I've had before. Then I started reading the thread, and I wondered what I've found myself into.
The elephant in the room is the two miller claims. It does raise quite a few questions, including whether or not the opposite is also included. There has been talk about Godfathers and whether we have them in this game, but I'm not sure if anyone commented about it in relation to the miller claims.
People have also accused Lifthrasil of vote hopping, and a quick check shows that he's voted for 6 different people (I did say quick check. Feel free to correct me). That does seem silly to me, but I have said before that if you consider the vote as your weapon, you shouldn't be waving it around.
yogsloth is his usual self, too impatient to play with us any more. He did start the claiming, and he did move the game quite a bit, though I'm unsure whether or not he does it as a bored townie or a bored scum. On the other hand, he does wish to shoot someone who had no chance to post, and does attempt to play mod to justify his reasoning.
There are currently 3 wagons (so to speak). docbear, HijacK and Lifthrasil. I'm unwilling to vote docbear (mostly because yogsloth would be shooting at me if docbear's lynched), I do find HijacK's claim plausible (and I missed playing with him, especially since he mellowed) and I need to read the case against Lift a bit better. I'll mull over it a bit more today, and see whether I place my vote on any of them.

P.S. There has been quite a bit of talk about fire and arson in the thread, and I'm not sure if it's feelers or attempts at humor. But I am known to be paranoid and see things that aren't there.

The main thing about it for me on top of the reason I already gave (that it devalues the wagon and its analysis, and helps scum plan, manipulate, etc., better) is that the mod is making the game. If the mod wanted roles to be known on D1, the mod would make the game semi-open or open. The fact that it is a closed game means that the mod definitely has the intention of the roles not being known as part of the setup / balance. Sure the mod accounts for a couple claims likely on D1 because of getting to L-1 and potential multiple wagons to L-1. On MS they do a whole bunch of early claiming going on, and it never serves town well imo. Even if a game is open or semi-open, I don't think the mod intends there to be a bunch of premature claims either, for the record, but it makes even less sense in a game where roles are hidden to be so willynilly with the claiming.

That's interesting. When I post something where you can't find anything to disagree with, you call it 'safe shit'. And if you disagree with something, you call it scummy. That is SO drealmer!

Please give reasons for your reads. Both on my and on the others.

No. It wasn't who made the claim, but how and when it was made. It looked to me like someone taking an opportunity to hide behind a surprisingly somewhat accepted outrageous claim. Yogs made a very dangerous and hard to believe claim. But there was no huge outcry and no immediate wagon on him. For several good reasons, one of them being that it would be a big and unneccessary gamble for scum to claim something like that. Then, after it was clear that such a claim can go through, HijacK came out with 'Hey, me too!'. But he left the 'me too' unclear enough, so that he had still wiggle room. (No, I totally didn't mean to imply that I have a killing role too. ... No, I'm not going to make a real claim out of that 'me too'...). So, that feels to me like scum seeing an opportunity. Scum knows that this is role madness. So there are probably several investigators of different kinds around. Scum knows, that they will investigate as scum and then yogs comes along and throws a role into the open, which investigates as scum - and many players still see him as kind of towny. That is a big temptation to follow suit and say: 'Oh, by the way, I will investigate as scum too. But I am totally town too!'. ... If he then makes it to the night, any scum reads on him on the next day will not mean as much, because he stated that he would read as scum too, after all. So, yogs seemed to me genuine but HijacK, especially with his unclear half-claim, seems opportunistic to me.

I hope that makes sense.

I KNEW it! You're a Cyclops! And Cyclopses are evil! GUYS! HSL just admitted to being evil!

But to answer your question: we really seem not to be using the same language. I didn't say a SK would claim a role that investigates and flips Mafia. What I said was this:
Keep in mind, that at that point I had understood HijacK's half-claim to be a claim to have a killing power. 'Hitman' does imply that. And 'Muscle' made me think of strongman. And after having claimed a killing power (at least in my understanding), HijacK made a big thing of me using the word Vigilante to refer to his half-claim. So I explained why I used that word: A townie with killing power is a Vigilante. So the word, he was taking offense at, is only wrong for a scum or neutral with killing power. So in that sentence, which you misunderstood (or misrepresent) the topic was the validity of the word 'Vigilante'.
Of course, HijacK later corrected his half-claim and specified not to have a killing power. But that doesn't change that the use of the word 'Vigilante' for a town role with killing power is completely normal - and not scummy, as HijacK tried to spin it.


Hi! I'm Lifthrasil.


@drealmer: I DID 'define' it. As in 'I gave reasons for my read'. Read, before you accuse. Not going to post everything again just to appease you. You have set your mind on finding me scummy and that will not change, no matter what I post. I know that from experience.

Come on. Don't just vote Bob, just because HSL tells you to!

Now that argument is a load of BS. I agree that there are reasons not to claim early. But 'the mod doesn't want it' is utterly ludicrous. A claim is a tool of the game just like the vote or anything else. For both sides. Especially in a closed role madness game, scum has the possibility to make up roles. That IS part of the game setup.
And also for town, depending on the role, it might make sense to claim early and without being at L-1. PGO, for example.

False.


I went back to look at Lift's posting and even though I have to admit it is somewhat erratic I don't really see too much that I haven't come to expect from him on D1 (and occasionally on later days, sorry Lift). I still prefer docbear, I think.

Lift seemed to be raising my eyebrow more so than normal today.

Starting with his first post. Perhaps it’s because I read the opening kill flavor as no more than a nod to those present in the sign-up thread who chose not to play. His opening hypothesis surprised me. That, in itself, means nothing. Just that he caught my attention from the get-go.

Early it seemed like Lift was going after low-hanging fruit, first yogs. The reasoning for the vote seemed rather LAMIST.

The next post of significance has been discussed, most notably by sage. In this post Lift keeps his vote on yogs, says gamma deserves votes, and a request for participation. I thought it was a bit early in the game to be calling votes for no-shows. I believe we were still in the first 24 hours. This post is what prompted my reply to Sage that I thought it seemed eager and raised an eyebrow. I also thought the call for participation might be more LAMIST. This also started the exchange between Lift and drealmer.

The next post, he seems to be baiting drealmer. I didn’t see the similarity that Lift claimed between drealmer’s statement and his.

The above (emphasis added) is the next part that caught my attention. Lift seemed to be getting too defensive about drealmer and Hyper’s questions.

I found the following response overly defensive as well:
In this post, Lift unvotes yogs and votes drealmer. Seems like moving from one low-hanging-fruit to another.

When I was catching-up I jotted a quick note that I both liked and disliked this post. I was surprised but liked that Lift unvoted drealmer. However, something felt off. I didn’t know why. A few posts later Hyper made the following remark regarding Lift unvoting drealmer:
The déjà vu comment struck a chord. It was like Lift’s argument and actions in a scum-Lift game.

Next thing, was something I liked, Lift indicating he removed his vote partly because flub jumped on. I thought that felt towny. (I aslo thought Hyper’s subsequent question about encouraging flub to vote was a stretch.) In that same post, he voted Bookwyrm for lurking.

@Lift or anyone – I don’t remember, do you typically throw your vote around on D1?

In the above post,, Lift addressed the flub vote comment. The part I’ve included is the summary paragraph before he votes Hyper. I thought the emphasized part feels fake.

Andthen the yogs/Hijack claims start. On a re-read, I don’t see as much there as I thought. I can see town mistaking that HijacK claimed vig. It could be scum, but I see the possibility it’s an honest mistake. I don’t like Lift trying to paint Hijack as suspect for not making a full claim. I mean, Hijack pretty much did.

Comments like the one emphasize seem like scum trying to keep attention on a player. After last game, I’m still not ready to make a guess on drealmer’s alignment. But one thing I am quite certain of, drealmer is never at a loss for words. This is a poor reason to suspect drealmer might be scum.

Lift's more recent posts seem less aggressive and more natural than early D1.

that's not true at all, man, start posting some towny sense and I'll stop SRing you - this is just a scum response though, can't you see it, yog? you are still free to go ahead and point out to me where you did instead of give a nonresponse btw.

I think it is a scum whose mind goes to the claim from HijacK being "the killing part."

it's like you're not even reading what I'm writing. And, no, I think if a mod puts a PGO in a closed game, they mean for it to not claim early. It is utterly senseless to claim PGO, imo. Players thinking they're smarter than the mod, they're not. If mod wanted ppl to know a player was PGO early in the game, they'd announce it themselves. Putting a PGO in the game absolutely uses its utility as intended by the mod if ppl just claim it. Or ascetic, or miller, or, or...

*know* this about me - and ppl have noted RW has previously similarly expressed an unliking for early claims, sooo, yeah, this argument isn't a load of BS

EBWOP - "LOSES its utility as intended by the mod"

so ummm, I'm going to say it again:

people not voting need to vote so the wagons can form, doc can see which CW to join, claim(s) can be made at L-1(s), and time for reactions and movement after that

LET'S GOOOO ppls, even flub has voted, get on it! JMich is excusable of course

You might annoy the hell out of me with how you go about playing the game at times but I 110% agree with you on this. It's why I get so annoyed about role/pm discussion on Day 1.