Not walking it back, just giving light to other possibilities to be discussed and see what ppl think about it. I didn't analyze the MS game or read it much (I don't like to read old games or go referencing games, I just like to play each game as it is and figure it - edit, trent and I have very similar mentality in that regard, too), but I looked at it when it was going on and quickly grasped the advantages for town in revealing the picked pairs and how scum is likely maneuver around it and that is pretty much it.

It's not that I don't want the advantage of the knowledge of eliminated pairs, of course not. My points revolve around when to reveal our pairs, and in what order, and what advantages and reasons there might be to hold off, but that has already been sabotaged as a possibility to consider, as if some didn't want to consider it, or want to use my wanting to step carefully as scummy.

The slippery slope is what we saw happen. If we don't universally go "okay wait, no need to get ahead of ourselves so no one claim their picks, lets analyze what doing that will do first", but instead one person does it, then another, then someone else is like "well okay then" and then before you know it, we are where we are now, with no actual consideration to the other possible route to take, and no ability to undo what has been done. slippery slope

It's all about where the focus of the game goes and the way things unfold. I can go into more of why I think not sharing picks immediately COULD possibly be (or at least should be considered and talked about before doing what can't be undone), but we're are past that point at this point and the only reason to do it would be for game-theory AND explaining my mindframe more to try and prove it comes from a town place and not a scum place (more indepth than this post which is surface basic stuff of: because we can't undo something that is done and without analyzing it before doing it, it's a saftey/precaution thing and I think is town-minded.)

this is the sort of thing that examples why I think it is towny to not reveal so fast, because there are thoughts to be had that don't hurt to have and discuss, and I don't see any disadvantage to waiting and figuring out how exactly to reveal and when so that it serves town BEST (no arguing that revealing doesn't serve town, it's about serving town BEST and scum THE LEAST)

smart scum can view the grid of available pairs and play it to their advantage, not exactly sure how, but I know I'd figure out a way and do it, without it, scum are blind, and false pushes they make could likely become very revealing as the game unfolds, again, specifics are just hypothetical theories and the point is bigger than the specifics that don't do any good to contemplate now because the cat is out of the bag

that's not all I see about it and a crucial word in my phrasing is "could" - this is what makes my posts about considering possibilities rather than pushing a theory I think to be correct other than the initial "hold off on reveal so we can figure out how to BEST go about it"

obviously I meant "it" not "I"

nice scumpost, HSL, you're at the top of my list

after a good amount of contemplation I think I would have liked to wait until D2 when we had 2 kills on the table and a good amount of scumhunting done and then made D2s leading wagon (after 4 days into the Day) reveal their picks first, then made them pick who picked next, then that person pick the next person, and so on (called "popcorning" on MS)

but that will become quickly apparent and damn them, wouldn't it?

^^^so much this too^^^ (trent states the obvious that is first and foremost in my approach to games that I forget to reiterate, thank you, trent!)

the tool will be there and I think it'd be fun to just PLAY a bit and then reference the tool - I think it'd be fine and good for town and doing this just jumpstarts scum fucking with the tool and takes all the focus - we can hope that what gogtrial says happened on MS (that it fell into the background as the game went on) happens here, and I am still planning to have fun regardless of the path we've gone, but it is important to understand this fundamental position when reading me because trying to attribute it to a scumgenda is just not true, nor would it be even if I were scum, it's NAI because it's just how I prefer to play

when one shines light into a forest, not only do you see what the light illuminates, but you can get a picture of what is not being illuminated and deduce things from that, if my comments didn't do that for you, I can't help you there

it's about the process and method and inability to do anything but once it's done, if you haven't gathered that yet

how could you miss these points?

this feels like a fake forced post to me

bump for more pls?

why did you expect an early lynch? why would it be a waste? I mean I know I have a history of getting MLed early, but it hasn't happened lately and to expect such...seems more like a 1.) hope and 2.) just flat out a bullshit reason

I mean let's go through this as you-town making your picks:

"hmmm, whether drealmer is town or scum I don't want to pick him because if he gets lynched early (which in this game is D1 or D2) it would be a waste" because...???

a waste as town because...?

a waste as scum because (because NOTHING because if I'm lynched early as scum you ABSOLUTELY want to have picked me as a pair, in fact, the best thing for town is to have repeat singular player picks on a scumplayer then to check the chart and figure out the only possible remaining partners)

scumpings^

of course ONE COULD - do YOU think it, or not? if so, why?

if you want to fence-sit on it, analyze and explain the reasons how him saying what he said does this

??? you don't know what he's talking about ??? I find this hard to believe

~burrrrns~

ftr HSL and I were scum together (allscum game) before and did fine and I'd enjoy playing scum with him again (and then I'd bus him hardcore if he pissed me off - all in fun!)

nice! thanks for volunteering, very scumtelling of you

holy fuck this pings me so hard

is HSL+lift a possibility? *checks chart*

ya'll just fear me towards endgame and don't let me live taht's what it is!

seriously, my endgame is pretty strong, my begin-game is weak (which is why I tend to get suspicion early)

that's all the catchup I have time/energy for for now~~

Well, my take is that it was best to get that out of the way.
I see advantages to voting someone without many pairings: (theoretically more probable to be scum)
I see advantages to those without a lot of pairings: (success means more confirmed town)

In other words, this part is over, now the game continues as normal with varying advantages whomever we choose, especially if we are correct.

fuck. I thought my post didn't go through but it did, and it triggered the 10 minute thing. Fuck my computer.
As for what drealmerz pointed out with RWarehall...it feels scummy! Only thing I can make out that would be towny would be trying to reduce the chance of D7 being town, which kinda feels dickish.

well to me that is kind of the whole point and one of the main general good reasons to pick someone

I didn't want Lift, Hunter, RW, or trent to be scum more than any other players, so they were my picks, the pairs I put them in were simply to reduce the potential of duplication

I could easily see others choosing trent+HSL, so then it was just a matter of deciding who to pair with who and those teams I picked seem to me like they'd be deadly dangerous teams, not more thought than that put into it

I can verify post #79 was a merge post. Gamma brought it to my attention before I refreshed and saw the merge. Lesson learned.

My initial reaction as well but then he posted very quickly within span of 10 minutes after my pick reveal post so I think it is less likely he could frame the reasons as well in such short time, could be mistaken though. I think trent would be able to confirm this as well since he was online and active at the time. Not sure how to read the rest of it with drealmer though.
Also from what little I've played with him town HSL pushes people to see how they react, so this could just be that.

I do give you more credit than that, which is why I think as scum you might quite happily muddy the waters by doing something scummy that everyone would think you are too clever to do.

But right now I don't really think you are scum, it's just something to watch and keep in mind.

I'm finding drealmer very scummy, but finding it hard to figure out whether that is just my usual response to his play style or a genuine scum read..
Nothing else pinging too hard at the moment.

So, to summarize my thoughts so far:

Yes, HSL needs to be watched, but I get the feeling that Gamma made more out of the doubling of pairings than it is. Also the points HSL made about Gamma are valid. We seem to have two players at odds here ... so, are these two mistaken townies at each others throat? Doesn't feel like it. Nothing solid yet, but I have the feeling that one of these two is scum. I just can't put my finger to it yet who. Or are they even scum together and try to repeat the feat of Hunter and RW from last game? Being at odd so obviously that no one thinks of them as pair? From the matrix these two are a possible scum pair.

drealmer, however, seems to be trying too hard to make HSL scum. And RW. Could be scummy, but for now I think it's just drealmer drealmering along. He's always quite agressive and often tunnels on one player. (Something I'm guilty of too, from time to time) The usual drealmer walls of text are also there, so basically everything as expected.

And my usual Day 1 fallback strategy 'lynch a lurker' doesn't work today, because no one really lurks so far. Well, I am the lurkiest at the moment (sorry for that, weekend) and I'm not going to suggest to lynch myself for lurkiness.

The questions might be irrelevant for deciding how to proceed, but they are still very much relevant for helping us figure out how you think, thus helping build trust (or not) that you're town. This is particularly important in your case, since you're a big unknown for virtually all of us.

Right now, you not responding to direct questions (particularly the ones that are deliberately pushing you, like mine were) is giving me bad vibes, and I really don't want to be voting you if the only thing causing that turns out to be cultural differences with how you play.


I think there's other things above that I'll want to reply to, but have a busy day coming up, so will have to postpone that until tonight.

Highly unlikely so early into the game, since that would draw attention to them both and also it doesn't put them any closer to win. When I did it, we only needed 1 mislynch to win the game so it is a completely different story here.
Let's say we lynch gamma and he turns out to be scum, in that case even if HSL is scum he would have to make town mislynch thrice.
Day 1: Gamma (7T 1S)
N1: Night Kill (6T 1S)
D2: Town Mislynch (5T 1S)
N2: Night Kill (4T 1S)
D3: Town Mislynch (3T 1S)
N3: Night Kill (2T 1S)
D4: Town Mislynch (1T 1S)
T- Town S- Scum representing count at end of phase

Hm. True. It's a bit early for such games. So it's probably not both and the 'being at odds' is genuine. Now the question is, who is the good guy and who is the SPECTRE traitor?

Yes I can confirm this, Hyper posted very shortly after you did. I also think Hyper was being genuine in what his picks were. If he is scum I don't see him drawing attention to himself by intentionally duplicating both picks, he is a better player than that. This is also one of the things I was concerned about with revealing picks, post 26. As I said in that post scum could duplicate picks to keep the field of possibilities bigger or duplicate picks could really just be someones picks and then they will be looked at as scum because they were duplicates.

Everyone's picks are just WIFOM at this point and should not be what we are focusing on. No one is cleared from picks so anyone can be scum.

Actually, given that there was quite a bit of discussion of scum duplicating picks to their advantage and that one extra pairing isn't so significant, I'm inclined to put a little more scrutiny on those who didn't duplicate which puts Trent, Hunter, Adalia and Gamma on the watch list.

But I am curious, how many duplicates should be expected. I'll get back to you on that.