Well assuming they are buddies drealmer's "no way I'm joining that lift wagon now" would look very bad when Lift flipped. Haven't got time to look it up, but I believe both trent and Brasas claimed intent to hammer between that post and drealmer voting Lift, so if drealmer had initially thought the lynch wouldn't go anywhere he may have posted his original comment.
Upon realising Lift was likely to be lynched (and his comment would make him look bad) he decided (or was prompted) to lynch Lift to attempt to get some town cred and offset any potential scuminess from wishing to steer clear of the wagon.

I see drealmer is back with us, but I'm off to bad and haven't got time to read or respond to his post yet. Might try and read it on my phone in a bit, but I'm not promising anything.

I actually hadn't read, had barely skimmed some things, wasn't aware they had both stated intent and I just didn't want you wallposters to post more walls when lift was the obvious good lynch

adalia and RW had both been town reading Lift up till the middle of Day 2, and you should know that since you have been taking notes of the game, so if my lynch had happened once I flipped town Lift would have gained more town cred.If that's not clear to you then I don't know what else to say.

Does it matter? I can honestly say I don't remember, I've been trying to piece together why he would have been acting like he was once his flip confirmed he was scum.

End of day, April 2 (early April 3)

Votecount

<crickets>

Welcome back

I read you saying Lift was "the obvious good lynch", and also he "was still likely scum and a good lynch" and I notice in particular that still word - it seesm to indicate you had SR him earlier...

Can you confirm? I'd like a bit more flesh on what / why made you conclude Lift was scummy.


PS: I thought your refusal to jump on the wagon had more to do with Adalia jumping in than the speed it built up? If you have time, please also comment.

yes, I'd been scumreading lift the entire game pretty much from the go, didn't want to get in to it much with him because I felt things were getting a little personal in regards to my involvement and didn't have the energy to duke it out with him more than I had tried

I remember making a SR list at a point where he was my top SR, but I think I put him 3rd as to not draw too much suspicion and it's not like the certainty was there to make me feel like I was misrepping myself to any negative degree (if I'd had him first it would have been more "why is lift your #1 scumread" and I just didn'thave energy to get in to it)

I do feel like if I'd done more I'd have gotten better reads from him in regards to his scumbuddy might be

part of me is inclined to think it is not adalia, but that lift's stuff with adalia were legit. attempts to get the wagon put back on adalia after it'd come off him, which is another reason I think gogtrial/brasas is not scum because with daychat I'm pretty sure lift would have been able to talk gogtrial into a safe vote on adalia when it would have gotten adalia lynched

as far as the wagon jump/speed build up, it was a combined thing of the quickness and adalia's +HSL's involvement in it, but the quickness was wait raised the redflags that made me make the comment I did about not joining (and HSL's positioning in regards to it that struck me more than adalias)

I confess again to not reading all the stuff that lead up to that, but more skimming ppls posts to get tonereads and try to get the gist of their shits - not trying to be rude, but I find adalia's town game to be not good / often misguided and so while I take issue with a lot of his crap theories and pushes that seem way off base (again, why I TR trent because I share his views on a lot of it), I realize he does that often as town and so it's a hard judgement. I don't have any solid memories of adalia being scum to reference either.

From the bottom

Hey look, here's another of those short and sweet sentences from you. Such a pity you always park them in sidenotes or sarcastic asides. :) Or dilute them in walls of facts...

Ok. I will see for myself Lift's flip flopping, and any Hyper's pressuring in advance of RW voting, while I reread. Thanks for that, including the way you structured it. ;)

I will say though that Lift's vote on you (the one after you self voted) - at least devoid of detailed context - is very much in his character and non alignment indicative. I recall perhaps (conf bias is a bitch) thinking he did it somewhat perfunctorily, but the vote itself was meh. I mean, voting no lynch, self-voting, etc... for Lift those are practically Pavlovian bells...

We'll talk more about Drealmer soonish I guess. Let's also see more of Hyper's reaction and Trent's non reaction to his return.

Hyper hyper...

Dinner has resumed, so let's stop flirting and sit at the table again?
And while we walk to our seats...

I'm not playing dense, I am refusing to reread Lift until everyone "commits" to a narrative + I do have a beef with your leadership style, around communication, but not only it seems.

And congrats on being right regarding Drealmer's play.

On all of this, I will not extend myself as it's now (<- keyword that) going to be a distraction. I will say the following and we can talk more after the game. Ok?

Just because you don't speculate about the motives of players does not make your case non-speculative. Every town case is speculative - unless PRs.

Just because you want to make it difficult / disallow others to judge and shade you does not mean you actually disallow anything. You merely make it so that attitude of yours of wanting to be outside of the reactions becomes part of the "case". Which admittedly makes things more meta, but well... it's been somewhat fun? [winks]

In conclusion, as an example of what I've been saying. At this point in the game, in your particular position, you should (<- keyword that, with its subjective ethical implications) be explicit who you are alluding to and why it matters.

The above is all allusion and no conclusion... it's a puff, it lacks bone: it has no structure. You want us to dig the bone up despite you already having found it.

Even if it has a bite - because believe me, I see what you are "saying" (well... implying), I think I know who you are talking about, and I will be paying attention when I go reread. But still... it's not speculation for you to actually freaking say it... and it's not me being dense that I find it strange you insist on finding bones and keeping them hidden as some kind of "prove you are worthy" exam.


TL:DR
You should now be the clear fulcrum around which others position themselves. And no Hyper, I don't mean we should try to lynch you, I mean you should not be drawing out reactions from outside, you should be drawing reactions but as a lightning rod, from right in the middle. And yes, that wil make it harder for you to judge those reactions, but you got to trust the three of us that are outside to be able to read that.

[refreshes]

Ok, looks it's time for my reread. By the way, thanks for commenting on gog not lynching Adalia despite abudant oppo.

Oh the first vote was perfectly reasonable, it was the subsequent unvote and revote that is far more suspicious, both for the timing and the very quick change of heart involved.
I think Lift thought he could shift the lynch to drealmer and blame me for it when he (presumably) flipped town. When Hyper joined trent's wagon instead and that seemed the more viable goer he backed off and decided I must be scum after all and put me back to L-1 in the hopes that gogtrial would hammer me (having already expressed an interest in doing so).

Nope, this is exactly what I was hoping you would say and makes my job a whole lot easier.

vote trentonlf

If you had come in guns blaring for trent that would have given me pause that maybe you were scum after all and would jump on the easiest wagon to push (with me and Hyper almost guaranteed to vote trent), but this is exactly the response I would expect from town drealmer.
I know there is a bit of a back tracking and flip flop in the next post, but I think that's still a townie approach to trying to play as a team and solve the game rather than scum trying to weasel in on an easy lynch.

And if we're wrong about trent we can still afford one mislynch and we can get you tomorrow, but if we lynch trent today I'm fairly sure there won't be a tomorrow.

Well it's you or drealmer really and I think you are the far more likely candidate and should be hit first.

@Brasas, I have a few comments on your post #682, but not sure if it's in town's best interest to post them as things stand now. Let me know if you'd like me to.


I'm inclined to agree with adaliabooks regarding drealmer7 and his reaction(s). His hammer looked pretty suspect, but it would have made a bit more sense if Lifthrasil had flipped town, given that scum had 24/7 chat. He still looks a bit bad for it, and I take his explanations with a question-mark for now, as he chose to be distant and not interact with the rest of us since before D1 end, and it only got worse from there, i.e. he intentionally made it hard to read him and his play.

He's not off the hook for me, but I find trentonlf's reaction to the pressure as a poor and unconvincing enough attempt to wiggle out of the corner, to still think that he's the more likely remaining scum, as evidenced later in this post.



I had a follow-up question after reading this, but reading on, I think it's better left for Tomorrow, though I hope and think there won't be one.



And if you were paying a little more attention, you'd know what sort of notes I've been taking this game; perhaps you'd like to go back and read my relevant post (again/carefully?) before trying to go there?

Now, to the more important stuff - first it was "ask adalia, he was the one town reading him not me", now you added "RW had [...] been town reading Lift up till the middle of Day 2". Hmm... did claiming that you took into account the town-read of a player you scum-read start looking as a bad enough argument even to you after I questioned you, that you had to go dig up the view of a confirmed town that you were town-reading all game?
I wonder... if I ask you a third time, will you go to dig up an additional piece to explain your use of the term... oh wait, you haven't mentioned gogtrial34987 yet...

I suggest you go back, again (as obviously you did so once already), and reread RWarehall's posts of D2, and I invite the rest of the players to do so too. I don't think there's actual, clear town-reading of Lifthrasil in any of them - if it was his post #426 on Mar 20, while he says he doesn't see anything that puts him below the town-line, he finishes with a "but" because of the problem of drealmer7 (who looked the scummiest to him at the time) and me (2nd scummiest at the time) being excluded as the scum-pair. And this is in the same post where the very fist thing he said is "Hyper + Lift seems a very real possibility", which as he confirmed later in his post #558 was his working theory until he cleared me as his partner.

But let's say that RWarehall was indeed and clearly town-reading Lifthrasil till the middle of D2. You have one player that you scum-read, adaliabooks, and one player that you town-read, RWarehall, town-read a third player that you yourself scum-read, Lifthrasil. And while you scum-read Lifthrasil, you accept/count their town-read of him? So, Lifthrasil taking your side was to net him more town cred? I'd think it more logical that, given your own reads on these players, that their town-reads of Lifthrasil would add up to null for you.

Still, let's say this is ok, and that for some reason you accepted whatever town cred your scum-read had till mid D2. adaliabooks started to re-evaluate his read on Lifthrasil right after the latter put him at L-1 the way he did (that was on Mar 23), RWarehall came out a day later and voted Lifthrasil as his top scum-suspect, and adaliabooks was on board after the cases RWarehall and I made against him; no town cred for Lifthrasil from these two from this point on. So, even if your lynch went through, how would LIfthrasil get "more" town cred for having taken your side? The argument you could have made at best is that he was aiming to regain some of his lost town cred.

Not to mention that you can't have it both ways - "adaliabooks is most likely Lifthrasil's scum-buddy, so his (sudden) scum-read of him is distancing and not fooling me, but I accept his town-read of Lifthrasil as genuine, even though I still think adaliabooks is his likeliest scum-buddy".


It does. Because your narrative, to use Brasas favourite term, is quite problematic for town-you.

When I put you at L-2, exactly where Lifthrasil had (confidently?) left adaliabooks (after unvoting him), Lifthrasil hastily put him at L-1 with a poor and desperate, imo, argument. A good chunk of discussion followed, yet town-you stayed out of it; not only did you remain completely silent on the matter, but your first post of that day was post #520 going into an argument with adaliabooks over who town-read RWarehall more and why. In fact, your very first comment on the matter came much later and only after I directly asked you about it - post #631 where you chalked it up to Lifthrasil bussing his buddy at the time, and expressed doubts as you thought Lifthrasil may have been trying to mislynch adaliabooks; no word about Lifthrasil's actions having to do anything with you. When Brasas asked you about it, your narrative became Lifthrasil attempting to take your side so he could gain "more" town cred should your mislynch go through.

So, we went from complete silence, to chalking it up to Lifthrasil bussing his scum-buddy, but also possibly trying to mislynch adaliabooks, and ended at Lifthrasil taking your side for more town cred should you get mislynched.
Your narrative evolves with every question asked. Same goes for Lifthrasil's "more" town cred one.

Doesn't quite add up for town-you, and your statement "I've been trying to piece together why he would have been acting like he was once his flip confirmed he was scum" comes across as still trying to avoid to commit to a specific narrative should the questioning and pressure persist.

I think it's finally time to put your theory/narrative to the test, I'm just going to wait for Brasas to do his reread, and see what he comes back with.

Accidentally left out a bit to Brasas.

Intended to add that it looks like we have a clash of play styles and a communication problem, and we have to do some work. As things stand, it causes a lot of distraction and noise, and finding some middle ground would be beneficial to the game (in general) and the both of us. Not sure how successful we can be this game, or if the duration of the game will make it absolutely necessary, but I look forward to discussing things in more detail post game.

I have skim read the posts since the morning. Didn't manage the reread yet. I assume in some hours I'd be able to get an hour free and do it before bedtime. No promise I'd post much by then though, will probably be beat.

I both want to catch up because I think I should, yet am tempted to just say to heck with it and proceed with Trent's lynch.

He has been too passive and perhaps resigned. That could be town Trent, but in this case I doubt it - town Trent in my experience has more fire in him. When he is lost and unsure who is scum he says it differently. He sometimes calls it quits, but before that he puts something on the table. All 3 of you (Drealmer / Hyper / Adalia) in your own way are ok with Trent's lynch and despite my not being caught up in the details as I'd normally like to be it would be horrible if two of you would be wrong townies and we end up mislynching.

Consider this a brain fart / status update. I don't actually feel confortable asking you to wait nor asking you to vote.

Will try to hurry...

Seems I'm the pick for today, not sure what else I can do or say to prove my innocence. I will just sit over here in the corner and await my lynch and hope town gets it right tomorrow because it looks like they sure want to get it wrong today,.

vote for who you think is most likely scum, eh?