I'm fairly certain we will likely be discussing the new enforcement of the policy in the admin thread. The timing and specifics need to avoid any undue influence in this game.

Maybe we should extend the night cycle to Saturday evening or Sunday morning?

So, it's "fake it 'til ya make it"... ok. Not that I actually expected you to confess. just wanted to see your reaction.


But here's the issue with your reply. You rather casually say you "chalked it up" to Lifthrasil bussing his buddy adaliabooks for extreme distancing, as if there was nothing else noteworthy about that vote of his. And while you told me to take into account how the events have unfolded in the game, you completely dance around the timing of his vote, and what that at the very least indicates, and try to shift focus away from you in relation to Lifthrasil, and back onto adaliabooks.

Must say I'm a tad disappointed, not even a "perhaps he did it to frame me as the next mislynch if he went down, to protect his actual scum-buddy"? Or was that going to come in next, as pressure stayed or increased on you?

Your intent to hammer Lifthrasil says nothing, as we've already established that this is exactly what you'd do as his scum-buddy.

Your question to drealmer7 is a good one, but as already said, you're good at this sort of thing as scum. And now that you've already laid the ground to appear as reasonably doubting adaliabooks guilt with that "Lifthrasil may have been trying to mislynch adaliabooks, after all, hmm... yeah, could be", should his mislynch fail to go through Today, I can't help but see a pretty subtle attempt in that question to set up drealmer7 as the next mislynch.


You don't get a second NK. *wink wink*



*sigh*



Read on from here.

The Day is open. Business will proceed as usual.

Please PM with concerns regarding this I must leave for a meeting and will not be back until the late afternoon.

Well now... the drealmer ban is a curveball...

Let me also comment on RW buying it with: sucks.
I think I rem RW trying to misdirect a bit regarding the pair picks clearing him, but seems scum was paying attention.

Now, let's go through the posts so far. Top to bottom this time.

This is still from before night fell:

I already had made my excel. Thanks anyway.
Understand what you meant with outside POV, etc... moot point now I guess.
Still not sure what you were trying to get at regarding the how scum would lie on pairs... I thought you meant why in that question... I mean they would not volunteer their actual pair and pick one or both that someone else already did... it's not like they'd need a complicated procedure on how to do this?

Now, what I will say further on this is that with RW no longer around, I will not get confirmation on the statistics he ran, but I did some modelling myself, and what you are calling insubstantial might be "actually solid". I would not push you much based on it, but it sure raises my eyebrows you know? Especially considering how mr JMich who is also the kind to pay attention to such probabilities didn't even get a chance to open his mouth despite how Gamma was potentially good mislynch material.

But hyper, for D3 I lean towards assuming you are town and will want to see if the others agree to "park you" so to speak. If we mislynch today and you are still around D4, well then... despite WIFOM, I think we should pay some attention to dear old RW when he said to beware clearing folks despite how influential they were in securing a lynch.

Regarding Lift's lynch. Apart from having noticed he was townreading me, I mostly piggybacked on what RW and you posted. You might recall I had said earlier that I found Trent or Lift more appealing as scum than drealmer and adalia.

As others have said already, let me add my voice that I will also want to understand better your prog to this.

Sure. Raises hand. Although surprise is too strong a word, but I sure was not sure of it. And seeing drealmer's hammer made me sweat a cold one. How bout you, how sure were you? ;)

Also just to point out - I also was not sure what "more" would be. A rephrasing of what I meant there is:
"I will be available to interact still today as needed"

And I'd like to hear more on why you don't suspect hyper at all? Because despite leaning more towards Trent, and wanting to understand that hammer of drealmer's - hyper as scum is my nightmare scenario.

PS: I'm not scum because cristi's PM says otherwise.

Nah, I'm 100% certain Hyper is town. I know him too well, and how he reacts to me. Plus there was absolutely no reason for him to bus Lift if he was his buddy, he could have just waited for either mine or trent's lynch to go through.
I will certainly not be voting Hyper.

I'd like to take your word for it, but I'm not going to.

To be honest I don't see how it's anyone other than trent. Lift as scum made the most sense if he was trying to push me and prevent a possible trent lynch. And the distancing they both did once either lynch seemed possible was also highly suspicious.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to r̶e̶a̶d̶ believe any of it, I just want to see what you all say ;)

gogtrial was a bit of a null for me... mainly leaning town but kept throwing kerb balls that made me wonder... but really I think he just had a tendency to waffle that came across as scummy. You haven't done anything to give me pause particularly yet, but we'll see.

trentonlf always pays attention.


Two non-native English speakers trying to communicate and debate in English... *sigh*

My point was exactly this, neither the "why" nor the "how" (I even added "in what way" to clarify what I mean by "how") require any sort of particularly hard thinking to answer as town. Everything you say was discussed D1, that you're going back to it late in D2, and now D3, makes me wonder... is this town, not realising that such a distraction plays into the hands of scum, or scum trying to pass shade on me, and maybe, just maybe, even attempting to go for my mislynch...

Can't help but read a bit of testing the waters in this.


I'm not really versed in the science of probabilities, so can't say I follow how there might be something "actually solid" there. If I were, and were scum, don't you think I'd have thought of it before doing it? At the very least, I'd have waited for more players to reveal their picks, after the ball got rolling, so mine wouldn't stand out that much.

*prepares for the WIFOM reply*

As for JMich, that was exactly my point - the moment he stepped in, there was no "GammaEmerald good mislynch material" anymore. Just for fun, may I remind you that I was the first to point out that JMich is not GammaEmerald, and to lay out the reasons he was the N1 NK? Oh right, I forgot, you think that is exactly what I'd do as scum, eh?

Here, let me use one of your own compelling arguments:

That should settle it once and for all, shouldn't it?


Well, besides paying attention to good Oddjob, let's also pay attention to who it was that first brought up the whole idea of me surviving another NK, shall we?


The "surprise" question had a pinch of sarcasm, as it refers to the reactions to the D1 lynch; didn't you say coming into the game that you had read a bit past the start of D2?

I was pretty confident Lifthrasil would flip scum with the way events developed after I voted trentonlf, and the way he had been acting and reacting since. drealmer7's hammer gave me a couple of WTF moments, but decided to remain calm and go over things and possible scenarios. By the time cristigale posted the flip, I had already thought of a number of reasons for drealmer7's hammer. Since he's banned till Sunday, i.e. he can't post, but can read and follow the thread just fine, I don't think it's a good idea to lay any of them out before he gets a chance to answer the related questions already addressed to him.


You should appreciate the great lengths trentonlf went to, to be helpful; not only did he post his own posts, but those of everyone else too. And all that, while he was on his phone; really went above and beyond, like a good little townie.



You are wrong. First I told him in scum chat that I was going to make a case against trentonlf, then advised him to panic over it and my vote that put trentonlf at L-2; I had to make sure he'd draw a lot of attention to himself, RWarehall voting him and calmly pointing out how things didn't add up with him was not sufficient. Then went after him every chance I got to completely corner him. All this so I could bus him. There, case closed. /S

Well obviously, yeah. :P

As for Hyper, I would not vote him today or tomorrow if he was still alive, if he is scum then I would just tip my hat to him for a game well played and move on but I am pretty confident he is town so as you say let's "park him".

If you have concerns about me then voice them and I will address them.


I will be around most of the weekend and will check the thread as often as I can.

Yes, gog can be waffly. I think he'll grow out of it as player - I think he hasn't yet found the balance between keeping an open mind and how open to be about it when communicating with others. Although, he likes Bler's play style so who knows... @Bler :P ;)

I'll tell you what I'm doing that gives me pause - that I'm not really willing to invest as much time reading into stuff as I would if I was here from the start... but read on for why that might be a good thing. (scrolldown to the bolded part)

I have two topics for you:

1 - to try and close the discussion on your hypothetical scummyness
2 - what I want right now - which is the point that connects to what I just posted at Adalia in the conclusion.

So on yourself, and please consider all this a yuuuuuge parenthetical - but since you tend to be exhaustive I want to lay it out and hopefully to rest.
-At some point your reactions to my testing of the waters (read rather, my testing of you) might themselves become "interesting" ifyouknowatImean?
-Consider how you point to Trent's "townyness" with that post of his. Now look at your posting of the matrixes and the files for me in that same "dark" light. Sincere town effort???
-maybe I'm rehashing old ground, maybe I'm not - certainly not much of what happened earlier has been synthesized for ease of "consumption". I certainly did not see any definitive conclusion coming from the early discusson of pair picks, with the obvious exception that there was consensus on revealing them - as proven by the fact everyone did, more or less enthusiastically. But hey - I'm all for synthesiss, Gimme, gimme...
-no idea now what you are probing with that "surprise" topic in reference to beginning of D2. I think I rem Adalia being the more surprised one, but at JMich NK. And you were a bit theatrical answering that, but I'm getting the picture you sometimes go for that. Regarding Hunter's flip nothing much rings any bells. There were many reactions, which I considered duh... I suspect you might be remembering something about Trent specifically? If so, Trent is usually so terse that he flies under the radar. And verbosity of others does not help him "pop" - rather the contrary if you ask me. At least right now we know Hyper - Trent can't be the scum pair heh?
-I'll put this here but it actually might make more sense in section 2... please knock it with referring to the "in game role" names. At least add also who the heck the players are. Oddjobb? Baron Samedi? At least that last one I know since he was the scum one... I mean, I'm not really believing you do this intentionally to obfuscate - rather you think everyone is as in command of those facts as you. But from where I stand that does obfuscate, and I end up not taking anythign, or hardly anything, from those posts of yours (or parts of them) because of this if nothing else (the else would be lack of synthesis ofc)

I think that's all. I will not go into detail into the probabilities, this is long enough as is and as you say, what purpose does it serve, heh?

In conclusion - it's because you are so towny that I'm pushing you. Unlike the others (I'm being uncharitable here for rhetoric), I'm never happy to shake hands and go "well played sir, well played.". I say it sincerely, but not with joy. If you are scum, I want your skin on the wall.
But also in conclusion and this is where I draw the line: I am town reading you.


Now for what matters and is not a distraction.
PS: This is not me admitting that I am causign a distraction on purpose. I acknowledge that for others that are settled on you not being scum (because they know you 100%, or because they are scum and know it) this can be distracting. Well... sorry, not sorry. I signposted so you could skip the whole thing...


So hyper, what I want from you. And actually from others as well. Is more of this:

Because - to me - this actually explains better the scum case on Lift than the freaking, frakking walls of text that I have been complaining about for ages. I don't mean (duh) the part about you masterminding it. I mean that this is an actual summary of the actions and reactions that makes human sense and does not get into minutiae. Now I can reread the exchanges and make my own mind on whether this is a fair representation / reading of events or whether it leaves something out, etc...

So again folks. Please mind your privilege of having actually lived through the exchanges in real time, and perhaps help me make sense of what has happened earlier. You know, because being laz... laser focused... is so nice, and helps me go back with some narrative that I can judge.

@Trent
I think you see where this is going. Adalia and Hyper have a narrative of Lift messing up because of pressure on you, his scum bud. Have you / do you agree with this but seeing Lift as shading you intentionally? Or do you have some other narrative for what happened? Throw me a line please... I might hang you with it, but then again, what else have you got? ;)

Ideally I want to do the Lift reread only after having all perspectives from the "witnesses".

Lift knew I would flip town if I was lynched and once he saw all the pressure I was getting from adalia and Hyper he tried to be on my side so he would gain more town cred if my lynched happen.

I know I'm town, I have a good feeling Hyper is town, but other than that I suspect everyone else. You are not gogtrial , but gogtrial had some moments that made me raise my eyebrows. Last game when RW replaced Hijack he got a free pass after he came in displaying a very town play so I'm not going to give you that free pass just because you behave in what is considered a town manner. I also have my doubts about drealmer and adalia and how this day plays out will tell me a lot. I am pretty sure the last scum is between the three of you and will be doing their best to fit in and cause a mislynch.

Your taste in decoration is... bizarre.

On a more serious note, I also play to win, and as town I too want to weed out the scum, but am content, if not quite happy, to lose to really good and/or smart play; it makes the next game more interesting and challenging, and that's something I can look forward to. This game, for example, if adaliabooks is scum, and has upped his scum game so much that he has me completely fooled, I will gladly salute him and be happy for him to win the game, should he keep it up till the end. And keep two pairs of eyes on him next time we play. ;-)


I don't mind the testing and the pushing, I can actually understand it coming from someone who just stepped in. What I don't quite get is that you're doing it over something that can't actually be proven either way, by me, you, or anyone else, until post game.

I also don't see what "definitive conclusion" you think there could have been reached on this matter but wasn't. Am I to assume that you've reached one? Any chance you'll share it, if so?

As for the lack of synthesis for ease of "consumption" - well yeah, sorry for not thinking ahead that we'd be faced with not one but two subs, the second of which would be l̶a̶z̶y̶ laser focused enough to expect a summary of events at the end of each (calendar or game) day, possibly sprinkled with a bit of personal take.

The difference between trentonlf and me regarding the being helpful bit is that I didn't go out of my way to do it; everything I provided I had readily available as I use and update it as the game progresses, the grid included. Nor did I preface my posts with "I'm on my phone, which, you know, really is a PITA for posting, more so for back-tracking, but look, I'm going into all this trouble to help you out; town-points for me, please, as I really need an ally here, else I can't push for a mislynch *wink wink, nudge-nudge*".

Regarding the "At least right now we know Hyper - Trent can't be the scum pair heh?", not sure I follow where you're getting at with the "right now" bit; this pair is excluded from the very beginning, as it was picked by Hunter65536. Who flipped town. Are you stating the obvious, and if so, what is the point, and what's with the "heh"? Do you have reservations about even town's sincerity regarding their picks? Are you saying something else altogether?

As for the use of "in game role" names and my story (post #568), I wrote that before cristigale announced that gogtrial34987 asked to sub out, i.e. while all players in the game were among the ones that started in it. Since we all had revealed our in-game role names (more or less along with our pair-picks), it shouldn't be all that hard for them to follow the story. But nobody said they couldn't, nobody asked who's who, or anything else, and nobody answered my question. In fact there were zero comments whatsoever, until trentonlf linked you to it with the innocent comment "that I believe was about me and Lift". But I guess you were too busy classifying my post as obfuscating, so noticed none of this?

Now, regarding specifically the Oddjob and Baron Samedi ones - the latter is in cristigale's post #636 where she revealed Lifthrasil's flip, which you caught just fine, the former is in her post #638, where she revealed the N2 NK, which somehow eluded you. Not to mention that in my reply where I used the name Oddjob, I've quoted a part of your post that should make it pretty obvious as to who Oddjob is. But nice dodging the actual point of that reply of mine.

So no, I'm not trying to obfuscate anything, but I do wonder if your statement of "taking nothing" from what I say is indeed because you are (very) lazy town, or because you are scum trying to pass as lazy town, when you are actually trying to pass shade on me.

If you're looking for a slip from me, you're looking in vain - there's nothing to slip over. You're going after the skin of the wrong person here, if you're town, and if you're scum, what you're doing is a tad too obvious, and not particularly successful so far; the only ally you may find is drealmer7.
You want to continue? Be my guest, just know that you have to do it without me; I've entertained all this enough as it is.


I'm not sure if you're saying that you are actually going to see if my sarcastic comment is a viable theory on how things may have played out. Are you? Because if you are, I have a couple of questions and points for you.

As for the minutiae bit - more often than not, the devil is in the details. I'm sorry you find paying attention to details, and pointing them out, off-putting, but I'm not a fan of making a case on someone in a manner that allows my case to be subject to the judgement of others based on how they may or may not read in front, behind, between, and whatnot, the lines.

On a side note - it's unbecoming of one that writes walls of text to complain about those of others.


What is your narrative?



Are there any posts in particular that stand out to you as Lifthrasil going for adaliabooks' mislynch? Could you point them out?

And one more question. If Lifthrasil was going for adaliabooks mislynch, do you think his whole post where he put him at L-1, and his reasoning for doing so in particular, was convincing enough to sway others?


What do you say we put your theory to the test?


[emphasis added]

More? Was there something else that netted him, or would net him, town cred that I missed?

One more question about this - given that you were suspecting him, did this cross your mind back then?