If I was convinced you were town I wouldn't care, you are still the most anomalous read to me and if I knew you were town then I'm pretty sure that the trent and drealmer are the scum team. I suppose I might still prefer trent on the off chance it's him and Lift, but I think removing you from the equation makes it far more likely for me that drealmer and trent are the scum team.

Yes, far more often than you'd think. It's most often used on the last day to secure a quick win when a badly placed vote allows scum to hammer, but even earlier in the game it happens frequently. Various levels of explanation are used as to why someone hammered so quickly or randomly, with various degrees of belief.
It's actually a pretty good scum tell a lot of the time (hence my initial doubts of RWarehall at the start of day 2)

You're not explicitly saying you would put your vote anywhere, but, you have 3 main suspects you'd prefer to vote, trent makes 4, you make 5

who are the other 2, and are NOT willing to vote them at all?

because what you're seeming to miss in my VERY EARLY IN THE DAY post, is that my comfort varies as well, comfort in a willingness is not scummy, as you illustrate here with your stance on trent

I pity you guys for having to read all this shit, this post was too long to go through in one go too:

Really wasn't my point, I said I wasn't going over that again. My point was that you made a big deal out of agreeing with drealmer "(it hurts me to say that)", which by itself isn't all that big a deal, but considering you've spent the whole game saying you think he is scum but have never voted him, barely pushed him or called him on anything besides his absence from the game or his response to other players.. it all looks contrived.

If you are scum, then yes. But again, it's not an isolated incident, you have been strongly town reading Hyper all game, have mentioned it constantly. Sure, I've said I find Hyper townie too, but it really feels like you've been trying to pocket him all game, knowing he's a good player.

That's fine, but you have literally just admitted that sometimes drealmer seems scummy because he is scum. Yet you seem to have completely ruled out that possibility this game.

Exactly, so why do it again? Why draw attention to the fact unnecessarily when we all know you don't do lists? It just seems like your making it crystal clear you're not going to be putting out any town reads that could be used against you later.

No, you were asking who they would vote for. You specifically said that to Hyper. Yet while you said your top pick was drealmer you didn't vote him or make any mention or move to vote him.

You step in to defend Hyper and say that he is trying to be reasonable with drealmer, again considering how often you made similar comments about Hyper it feels like a serious pocketing attempt.

And round 2:

Because you are apparently completely incapable of making up your own mind about drealmer this game and need our help?

It was Hunter's next aggressive post that clinched it for me and made me think he might be scum. I voted to push him a bit more to see what would happen as he wasn't responding well to pressure so far. What we got back did nothing to change my opinion on him.
What I don't like about your post is that it is immediately after Hyper called you out for not voting that you shift your main target to Hunter and place a vote, neatly avoiding ever having to vote for drealmer.

No, you are budding up to me because you said you would be hard pressed to vote me and thought I was very town, even though you were one of my main suspects. My arguments against you and suspicions had faded into the background so you made sure to say you found my actions townie.

It's the expressing of the surprise that bothers me, as I often find (and have done it myself in the past) it an easy filler for scum at the start of the day "Oh no, I never expected player X to flip town! I'm so surprised!"
It's day 1. Of course I wasn't surprised.

Just continuing the trend you've followed all game as far as Hyper is concerned.

You don't see an issue with that? You would Dayvig drealmer but have never voted for him and think other players are as scummy as he is? Scummy enough to dayvig but not to lynch?

"I would put everyone else in the pool as possible scum at this point"
How is that not saying everyone is scummy? If they are possibly scum then they must be scummy.
Nothing wrong with town reading RWarehall, it's just in direct contradiction to a post you made a couple of days before that and it seems your reason to town read him is to look good if he was lynched (as it looked possible he would be)

Now look who's twisting words? I never said I saw RW as scum, I jokingly said that between the two of us we had inadvertently made it look very much like we are buddies. Everyone in the game can see it, even me, but to you there is no way RWarehall could be scum with me and someone else must be my buddy if I was scum.

I beg to differ. My lynch wouldn't clear anyone, certainly, but I never intended to get mislynched. Worst case scenario is that scum managed to quick lynch me before I could unvote, in which case they would have both exposed themselves quite badly with one lynch left available. I wanted to derail RWarehall's wagon because I saw it as a game losing move for town today, and for now I have succeeded. Maybe we'll still lynch him, maybe it will turn out to be the right move, but I didn't like the way his wagon was building (and who was voting for him) and thought town needed to consider things a lot more carefully before Lift or someone else put him at L-1.
I think my actions were very townie all in all.

You took it exactly as it was meant. A trap to stop scum you being able to vote me with out drawing attention, and your frustration at that fact is clear in your post.

1. So you are just twisting what I said in my opening post to fit your logic, noted.

2. I'm not scum so your point is not a valid one, and even if I was scum your reasoning in my posts is weak for me "buddying up" with Hyper.

3. No, drealmer acted totally different in the smurf game than he has in his other games but I was on him that game too, but he fooled me at the end of the day and I didn't vote him when I should have. His behavior this game is very much like his other games where I've been all over him and he ended up being town.

4. You really don't read the game thread at all do you, gogtrial specifically asked me for any reads I had and I responded to him. But again to make it fit your logic we can ignore that.

5. What? You are making no sense at all now. Read again (I am starting to think reading is an issue for you) what I said. I was asking for people's top scum suspect that they would vote for, I was not asking people to vote. If I was not asking people to vote but who they would vote for then why should it be expected for me to vote right then? I was not wanting a list from people, I wanted more conversation and was trying go to get that by asking who everyone found to be their top scum suspect they they would vote for.

6. It would not have mattered who drealmer was acting that way toward, I would have said the same thing. I don't like bullies, and screaming at someone is being a bully. So take your buddy BS and move on.

7. If it makes your story of me looking bad even better then sure that must be it. I still find drealmers play scummy, but I still don't know if I would vote him because of the fact his play is so similar to his town games. I'm starting to think I will always find drealmer scummy no matter what.

8. Did you even read my reasons for voting Hunter and your reasons for voting Hunter? They were the exact same reasons, but that makes my vote look bad but not yours? This is what I'm calling adalia logic, makes no sense at all or is just flat out not true but must be true to the person saying it.

9. More adalia logic, you ask for people's thoughts but since I responded to your request it was me trying to buddy up to you and not really answer your question. Brilliant stuff here.

10. You first posted that you were not really surprised Hunter flipped town so I responded that I was very surprised, I don't vote people because I think they "might" be scum I vote people because I think they "are" scum. So yes I was surprised he was not scum. But adalia logic says that's bad.

11. Even more adalia logic

12. drealmer makes me wish I had a day vig to use on him every game he plays, and if I ever have one and he's playing I'll probably seriously consider using it.

13. If you can't see the difference in saying someone is scummy and someone is possible scum that's you, but I'll try to enlighten you (although my hope is fleeting that it sinks in). Scummy: someone is behaving in a manner that makes it look like they are scum. Someone might be scum: it's possible that a person is scum (nothing about how they are acting, it's simply what it says that they might be scum). I found RW's play to be towny, but don't discount that he could still be scum. But using adalia logic it's the same thing either way.

14. As I said spin it how you want, but self voting is not a town play. Trying to justify self voting is not a town play. It's akin to people that behave scummy on purpose to draw scum out, very bad play as it gets a town player lynched justifiably for acting scummy.

15. LOL, a trap? No, it was wording it so that the only possible outcome was making me look bad. A total scum move.

So this is something I keep coming back to while trying to understand if a town-you could be possible.

You're basically admitting here that you lied. That's something I can totally understand from scum - it's easy to town-read someone when you know for certain that they are, but then when you have to back it up, you must feel you can't just admit you made a mistake.

But as town, you just do not lie. Why would town-you do something like this? Please try to explain your mindstate from when you made that decision. (Did it feel like a little white lie? But if so, where else did you lead us astray like that?)

(Anyone wanting to check up on the original conversation: #115, #131, #141, #148, #150.)

Given your votes, I'm assuming adalia and RW are your top tier of comfort. Are they mostly tied together, meaning that a town flip for the one would change the comfort level for the other, or mostly independent?
Who comes in third place?

Yes and no. I had been town reading him, I saw something that made me do so and you asked me what it was. I went back to find the post, but couldn't. I still town read him, whether I could remember the reason or not. So I tried to find what it was.
Maybe I should have said I couldn't remember, but I didn't lie about what I could see about Gamma that was townie, those were genuine feelings based on my reread of him.

So it didn't feel like a lie at the time, though in hindsight I can certainly see why it might look like that.

I didn't see that "trent and drealmer; A love story" coming, and while I don't agree with a lot of the points and arguments adaliabooks makes, and wouldn't count some of them as telling (adaliabokks went into very much detail), It sure has made for an interesting day.

So, let's start with getting the points I disagree with out of the way.

1. trentonlf and reveal of picks - I've already said what I think of that, especially as it being in cahoots with drealmer7 seems a bit too obvious of a slip for skilful scum-trentonlf that early in the game. Either way, I'd not put much into it.
2. trentonlf and reads - I didn't read it that way back then, and still don't. adaliabooks overlooks the fact that while the rest of us know treantonlf's aversion to such lists, and stands by it also as town, gogtrial34987 doesn't, and they were the one asking trentonlf for a list.
3. trentonlf's go at drealmer7 about his 3ds long absence - I see some bias on adaliabooks part; he reads Lifthrasil's go at drealmer7 as proof of the former scum-reading the latter and thus part of a genuine attempt to get him lynched, because he town-reads Lifthrasil, while it's the opposite regarding trentonlf, because not only does he scum-read him, but is also convinced he's scum-buddies with drealmer7.
4. trentonlf contradicting himself with his town-read of RWarehall - trentonlf is right that "being scummy" and "one could be scum" are not exactly the same thing.

Now, regarding his point about trentonlf buddying up to him - I have to admit that I overlooked trentonlf's wording at the time, and that on second read, it does look quite strong, but then, he never actually called adaliabooks scummy during their D1 clash.

What I will give adaliabooks is the bit about trentonlf buddying up to me. Except that I wouldn't say that it started as early as adaliabooks says, and I'd not call it an attempt at pocketing me; he's too smart to actually think it'd work. I see it more as acknowledging that it would be quite hard to discredit or pass shade on me, so the better scum strategy is to strongly town-read me and defend me; scum need to town-read at least a couple of townies to be more believable, especially when they hide their buddies in the town pile.

trentonlf plays close to the chest as town, and is rather reluctant to volunteer things, but he volunteers even less as scum, a lot less; if one wants his view on anything, they have to drag it out of his mouth, and simply asking once often won't do the job.

adaliabooks is also right that trentonlf is not the sort of scum-player that will cave and crumble under pressure, he's the "never, never, never quit; fake it 'til ya make it" kind. And with volunteering so little, he always reserves enough room to do it.

I will also give adaliabooks that trentonlf's surprise about Hunter65536's flip feels a tad overplayed; the way things went down, there was no real need to stress surprise.

I've watched trentonlf play as scum, perhaps more importantly, we've played as scum-buddies. I know what he's capable to pull off, I've witnessed how smooth and slick scum-trentonlf is passing as town. I've been watching him this game since the beginning, and I tried not to alarm him (much); he's smart and has probably been watching me too to see if I get on his trail, and may have suspected what I was doing with my batch of questions to him.

I have to say that I've seen a good chunk of that play in this game. While on the face of it it seems like town-play, it's more calculated and carefully worded as to not corner him into a situation he'll have a hard time wiggling out.

As drealmer7 said, trentonlf has said (out of his own will) pretty safe things - like for example, posts #26, #31, #166, #400, #443, #463, and some others in between.

He also replies to questions with what I call round arguments, avoiding specifics as much as possible, and may even attempt to go around the question (like he did in his post #474/ answer #2), to steer the focus into a safe direction.

As I said, he won't volunteer, and won't commit if he can avoided. A good example is post #474/ answer #3 - he did not partake in the discussion about the N1 NK, not even to add his voice to the "I was surprised GammaEmerald/JMich was the NK" ones, which he only said during my questioning him, and I had to drag out of him that he had thought about it; I was pretty certain that he did, and wanted to see how he'd reply.
And it took an open confrontation with adaliabooks for trentonlf to bring up the argument about drealmer7 being different in the Smurf game where he was actually scum, an argument made prior by Lifthrasil.

That thing with the "get more discussion out of everyone", then hardly partake in said discussion? When he's town, he's focused on actual scum hunting, thus any questions he asks are within that context, and not just try to find subjects of discussion to prevent the game from stagnating.

As for Lifthrasil's reasoning of he'd expect him to be more active and steering others more, I disagree; scum-trentonlf's activity is of the necessary level to not raise suspicions, and he's not steering or confrontational, unless it's safe to do so.

Prime example is his latest clash with adaliabooks whom he finds scummy, and protests against adaliabooks arguments/accusations. Putting aside the fact that his lengthy counter-arguments in his posts #497 and #501 are pretty much a repetition of 3-4 points (a couple of which I'd give him as facts, even from my PoV), what stands out to me are two things:

1. For someone finding adaliabooks scummy, I see very little to no offence in his rebuttal, and a lot of defence. And not just any defence but:
2. The textbook "Convincingly appeal to emotion. Getting upset works better (than getting sad)" sort.

Since trentonlf town-reads me, I expect the sad sort of rebuttal from him, along with some shaking of his head.


I won't go into the level of detail adaliabooks went with his love story; my read of trentonlf is based on how he comes across overall from his play, and not in connection to another specific player.


I expect the question "Do you think he's scum-partners with drealmer7? If not, with whom?"

For now, I'm inclined to say that I don't see this scum-pair, in spite adaliabooks effort to support this case. I won't deny that trentonlf has not been going after drealmer7 as one may have expected of him. But here's the thing - drealmer7 is always an easy target. A hard push on him, makes whoever does it look bad when he flips town (still a good chance, imo). And scum do not want to be that someone, scum want town to mislynch their own and think they're going to hit scum.
I'm not ruling him out completely; as I said to Lifthrasil, trentonlf clears two players (three for the rest of you), and has a total of three possible partners, so shouldn't be too hard to figure things out Tomorrow.

Next question may be "What about RWarehall and your suspicion of him? They can't be scum together!".

True, they can't. But I keep coming back to what I said at the end of D1 - "the scum-pair is a much much less apparent one, one that did a good enough job D1 to not raise suspicions to either one of them, let alone to them as a pair". The so far lynch-candidates do not fit with this, they've been, to varying degrees, too obvi-scum, and the way RWarehall resigned himself earlier today feels more town than scum. And before anyone jumps in, this does not equal town-play in my eyes, just that I'd expect RWarehall to be more... feisty as scum.

So, for me, it's trentonlf. And since this got pretty long-winded:

Vote trentonlf



@gogtrial34987 - good enough for you?


<trentonlf - you know I love you, pal, but the thought of you kissing my arse is really not appealing to me. :-P>

All I can say is you really disappoint me Hyper, your read on me is totally wrong. I expect better play from you. If I am lynched all you are doing is giving scum another mislynch and putting us at lylo tomorrow. I admit I've had a poor game, but you're misreading it as me being scum.

If I'm lynched I will flip town so please do me a favor and lynch adalia tomorrow, he's tried his best to make me into scum based on bad logic. I still think his partner is probably Lift, he's who I would look at first after lynching adalia. If not Lift then I would say it's probably RW (and if it is RW, well played on fooling me again). I honestly think it will be adalia and Lift though.

End of day, March 22 (early March 23)

Votecount
adaliabooks (2): drealmer7, trentonlf
trent (2): adaliabooks, HypersomiacLive
drealmer7 (1): RWarehall

Not Voting: gogtrial34987, Lifthrasil

adaliabooks and trentonlf are closest to lynch at L-2

When you first said that, you specifically said it in context of a "creepy feeling" about me. I find it ...suggestive that you didn't refer to me at all with this particular reference.

I think on the face of it, this is my main problem with this theory (which I'll have to do much more thorough checking up on, hopefully tonight but probably tomorrow). It feels like one of my paranoid constructs more than the way to zero in on scum by going for the simplest solution. Of course, I've had trent/drealmer as my long shot scum pair since D1...

RW: I fear I was a part of what made you say that all your reads were twisted to mean the opposite, but all the same, I'd really like to see your input on this all. Does it ring true to you?

Heh, nice to know I'm not completely insane. I take your points, there is probably a lot that I'm reading too much into (and a fair bit of confirmation bias), but I think you do see the same thing I see in trent this game, and get the same feeling from him.

Maybe what I've seen as the trent - drealmer scum team is indeed just trent steering clear of being on drealmer's wagon and hoping the rest of us would push him so he could keep his hands clean. I could certainly buy that.

I also agree about RWarehall. He's far too clever as scum to just sit back and let himself be lynched, particularly while he is under heavy suspicion. He said it himself that he would hate to lose to drealmer and I think that would hold true for scum RW too, so way not fight harder? He just doesn't feel anything like his usual scum play to me.
And I think trent has jumped right to the top of my scum list (where drealmer was my previous top pick) on rereading, which rules him out even more as they can't be a pair at all (whereas there was still a very slim chance drealmer and RW could have been buddies).

The question remains which of the three other players is his buddy?

That should be easy to answer. gogtrial and HSL. There have been doubts raised about both by some others, but not enough that I would feel comfortable lynching them. And I would put my vote on any of RW, adalia and you. Trent in an emergency. Who of my three main suspects is my preferred target keeps changing, to be honest. I keep wondering if it's adalia+RW or you+ ... someone. If you are scum, you made a good job avoiding any coupling-tells. You+trent is possible, sure. But so is you+adalia and you+RW. Sure, RW has been voting you all day and made it clear that he doesn't like you, but if we remember last game, we know he's very good at distancing. And now he has fallen silent again... I don't like it at all. But currently he is at 0 votes and adalia made quite an effort to prevent RW's lynch, so I don't think RW is going to be lynched today.

But those walls of text between adalia and trent have made me go back to the start of the Day and made me realize something. adalia, you said now, that you weren't surprised at the start of the Day that Hunter flipped town. But that's not what you said in your first post. There you said 'I am mildly surprised, but not too much' ... quite non-committal. And you accuse trent of overplaying his surprise - but you did it yourself concerning the NK choice! Quite strongly, too and now you explained yourself why overplaying surprise is scummy.

And on your analysis of the trent/drealmer relationship, I don't see trent as scummy there. Maybe I'm biased, because HSL is right: my own opinion of drealmer is quite close to the one trent has and always has been. drealmer is always distracting, since he always plays scummy and I've never managed to cooperate with him when we both are town. He seems to play the game solo. So he is basically unreadable, because even when he's town, he doesn't play town. So when he is scum, there is no difference to put your finger on. Therefore, quite similarly to trent, I see drealmer always as reasonable lynch, but I'm always unsure about that read. Increasingly so as the number of times I have misread drealmer increases. And there isn't even any meaningful discussion or banter with him, like there is with you or HSL, because it just doesn't work. If I try put to pressure on drealmer, he explodes. If we try to discuss, we misunderstand each other. So I even can understand the sentiment 'if I was a dayvig, I'd remove drealmer from the game' ... understand, but not agree with. And I also don't think trent would actually do that, if he was dayvig. I read that sentence more as a sign of frustration. I have, after the usual start in this game, tried to reduce the amount of my interaction with drealmer instead, to reduce the amount of friction and distraction. Perhaps others have better luck reading drealmer than I have. (or in other words: I'm willing to vote drealmer, if enough other persons think him scummy, but I'm not willing to push him any more, since that doesn't lead anywhere. Does that make me scummy? Or lazy? Maybe. But I think it is the best for now to keep the game playable)

So, I was quite willing to listen to your drealmer+trent theory. But after going back to the start of the day and the lack of participation of RW, I come back to the conclusion that I think you+RW is the more likely scum team than trent+drealmer. Especially since the story, that made me seriously consider trent+drealmer, came from you, who is still one of my main suspects.

Therefore back to:
vote adalia

If you flip scum, trent is cleared and RW dies next (at least that would be my preference).
If you flip town, either trent or drealmer die tomorrow. (or me, because I pushed you, but then we lose. But all others would say the same about themselves)