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General discussionForum Mafia #46: Henchmen Hijinks(800 posts)(800 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 12, 2017
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drealmer7: @trent - I think we've had a few good games recently without me getting agitated at dumstuff, and it's not overly bad here, I just felt like I kept having to repeat myself and I get frustrated with that, anyway, certainly me getting like that can happen as town or scum and you've got to decide which, you're wrong again here, I'm just town.

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RWarehall: Not really. Just seems to me they are playing fast and loose with their reads rather than seriously reading.
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drealmer7: that's not how I take it at all, I take it as fluid and open with their reads because it is D1 and they're not pretending they're able to *know* and have the game solved so early

you are the one who seems more loose with your reads for convenience rather than fluid from genuine uncertainty

hunter has defintely been a curious question mark for the game so far, but it's hard to know how to read it, RW's "look at his ISO and tell me what you think", as pointed out, really stinks to me, like "hey go see if you can find something scummy specifically or if you can read into it being scummy in anyway!" - very much could be RW trying to get traction on hunter. it reminds me of the russian film test, who was that sergei einstein? influence what the audience sees in a picture by telling them what to see in the picture sort of thing
Say what you will, but I can find what seems to be concrete actual sincere scum hunting in everyone else's posts (except maybe yours where every game you try to lynch me and those who question you day 1). I stick by my read; I stick by that when I read his ISO all I saw was fluff and smoke with no serious contribution. Sprinkle in a fair amount of "I agree"s coupled with poorly explained reads lists or votes and you have what appears to be a floater...

Am I trying to get traction on Gamma and Hunter? Yes! Because I find them the two most likely to be scum and I believe I have explained why sufficiently.
Posted March 12, 2017
way to exagerrate, I only think I try to lynch you when you're scum though!!!

but if you find a scum-ilicious lack of scumhunt in hunter's posts, just say so rather than do it how you did it, as the point has already been made, the way you did it more makes me think you're more likely scum

I'll agree with you his content is lacking and he's a bit of a floater, but given his history, I'd say that could very much be indicative of him being town (and vanilla at that) with not a good grasp or picture or firmer course of action like he is used to - not saying he can't be scum and that his participation can't be what you're saying, but, I'm inclined to the more innocent lean at this point
Posted March 12, 2017
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RWarehall: Am I trying to get traction on Gamma and Hunter? Yes! Because I find them the two most likely to be scum and I believe I have explained why sufficiently.
I could buy them as a scum team, but of the two I think Gamma makes a better lynch.
If Hunter is town we gain very little, if Gamma is town we can at least look again at the various pushes against him (and defences) and see if anything can be gained from it.

I would still rather drealmer or trent though.
Posted March 12, 2017
I'm back. Didn't read everything yet, but this sticks out:

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Hunter65536: Vote RW
Haha got ya now scum, can't escape me now
Hunter? If you have a 'got you' epiphany, please explain. If you really have something telling on RW, share it with the rest of the players! But if you don't have something solid, your post really looks strange.
Posted March 12, 2017
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gogtrial34987: Trent: What's your impression of RW's play so far?
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trentonlf: RW has been laying back and observing how everyone one is behaving and questioning what he finds off, for me I find this to be the town RW. From what I've seen of him as scum he is more active and pushy in his play. Not an overly pushy, but he pushes someone into making mistakes that he can exploit and it doesn't feel like he is doing that now. What is your opinion of his play so far?
I started off seeing him as relatively towny, but on a reread didn't really get that feeling so strongly anymore, other than for a strong push on Gamma which seemed to echo my own thoughts. (But now I think that this behaviour could also make sense from scum sensing an easy mislynch-target.) I don't like how absent he became after the Gamma vote, with his few posts being just as "reactionary" as he's accusing Hunter of being - until that push on Hunter.
But y'know, I'm not seeing anything from him I'd classify as likely scum, either. It's all neutral-to-town, but too possible to be seen differently. Don't have a good enough mental model for his way of playing, so can read his posts both ways. Your reaction helps with that, so thanks.
Posted March 12, 2017
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Hunter65536: Vote RW
Haha got ya now scum, can't escape me now
I love the "clever trap". Let me see...you were intentionally trying to look scummy waiting for the first scum to grab at the low-hanging fruit? Then ask me why scum wouldn't just go with the flow day 1 and go along with one of the two major candidates...
Posted March 12, 2017
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RWarehall: I love the "clever trap". Let me see...you were intentionally trying to look scummy waiting for the first scum to grab at the low-hanging fruit? Then ask me why scum wouldn't just go with the flow day 1 and go along with one of the two major candidates...
Hmm, if I was scum why would I intentionally try to be scummy? Mine is practically all covered in terms of combinations so if I was trying to sacrifice myself again I have to say it won't work very well in this context.


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RWarehall: I thought he was floating and mostly non-contentious. Felt like everyone else was trying to figure this out; he was merely reactionary. He was very early in #48 trying to bus those with double picks after revealing 2nd. He voted Gamma early but found a convenient excuse to leave the wagon (creating distance?). All this after Gamma listed him as the most towny. If I had to guess, I think those two are the scum team.

I did a full read through. Thought Lift came off as town. I'm a little torn about Drealmer, but I'm always torn about Drealmer. The fact he's trying to lynch me isn't unusual for him when he is town.
This is the post I refer to, or rather call it a shitpost because it looks really forced and a way to say anything rather than contribute something of value to the game. Oh wait this is how a reactionary post looks like, find any like this before this one I dare ya.
Looked at post 48, who did I "bus"? Also I was the one to point it out to gamma that HSL's picks came in quick succession to mine when he was doubting HSL of copying me and trent so your argument is crap. Except gamma became less trigger happy on the lynch later on and actually started answering questions, contributing to the game and not just making up shit.
Posted March 12, 2017
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RWarehall: Not really. Just seems to me they are playing fast and loose with their reads rather than seriously reading. It was the same feeling I initially got from Gamma with his reads list. No explanation for any of them and too comprehensive for early Day 1. It felt fake. Upon a re-read, I didn't see it as Hunter probing at all, just making arbitrary "reads" with little to no explanation. Again, feels fake. Reads to appear as if they are making reads. If that makes any sense. The order of events means less to me than the fact they are so fluid without any real reasons.
[emphasis added]

That's actually not true. He did give reasons (according to him, not all of them) for his scum reads. You may argue that you weren't convinced by them, but saying that he gave no reasons whatsoever is misrepresenting him.


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RWarehall: [...] I did a full read through. Thought Lift came off as town. I'm a little torn about Drealmer, but I'm always torn about Drealmer. The fact he's trying to lynch me isn't unusual for him when he is town.
Since you did a full read, I wonder why there's nothing about adaliabooks, who you thought required a "deeper look" ( post #242).

And now that trentonlf clarified that he's asking for opinions on the various clashes, care to offer one?



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trentonlf: I was mainly wanting everyone's opinion on y'all's clash. I have been trying to not climb all over drealmer again (it seems I do it almost every game we play together) for how he is behaving. He is disregarding any attempt at trying to have a civil discussion and only reacting with what appears to be either severe frustration as scum being caught or a townie with severe frustration from being wrongly accused.I see it as scum being caught, and then I remember I always see it as scum being caught from him. So I was hoping to see what the opinion was from everyone else as I might be missing something as I almost feel like I judge him too harshly in my annoyance of his behavior. [...]
I see. Since RWarehall didn't do that, and he is the one you directly poked, why didn't you come back to him with a follow up question? And what is your own opinion on your clash with adaliabooks? What do you think of RWarehall's arguments about Hunter65536 and vice versa?

Also, you seem to avoid my comment on the lack of a vote from you. What's up with that? When did you become so rstingy with your vote? It's not like you can't take it back if developments dictate it.


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trentonlf: [...] As for the booze and strippers, all I can say is there is not much booze left at this point and I'm not sure where the strippers went... [...]
*sigh* I had a feeling you were all talk.


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trentonlf: [...] RW has been laying back and observing how everyone one is behaving and questioning what he finds off, for me I find this to be the town RW. From what I've seen of him as scum he is more active and pushy in his play. Not an overly pushy, but he pushes someone into making mistakes that he can exploit and it doesn't feel like he is doing that now. What is your opinion of his play so far?
[emphasis added[

While I've seen that too, I'm not sure it applies to D1, will have to go back and check some of his scum games where he didn't sub in for someone else D2 or later.

Overall, I have to say that, until that sudden finger-pointing at Hunter65536, he's been laying very low, and only chimes in when directly poked to do so.



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drealmer7: way to exagerrate, I only think I try to lynch you when you're scum though!!! [...]
Game #40 begs to differ.


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drealmer7: [...] I'll agree with you his content is lacking and he's a bit of a floater, but given his history, I'd say that could very much be indicative of him being town (and vanilla at that) with not a good grasp or picture or firmer course of action like he is used to - not saying he can't be scum and that his participation can't be what you're saying, but, I'm inclined to the more innocent lean at this point
I just did a re-read of him in games he was town (games #34, #37), and my overall impression is that he was way more participant, even on D1. As for game #45 where he was recruited, he was equally participating and talkative before the recruit took place. So, not sure that his participation this game can be attributed to him being town.


Off to have dinner.
Posted March 12, 2017
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HypersomniacLive: I just did a re-read of him in games he was town (games #34, #37), and my overall impression is that he was way more participant, even on D1. As for game #45 where he was recruited, he was equally participating and talkative before the recruit took place. So, not sure that his participation this game can be attributed to him being town.
Here's where I can refer to one of my previous statements, games during that time were much more (can't emphasize this enough but you already know it anyway) longer in terms of number of posts overall. That meant many more back and forths among various players than now, which is why if you took in proportions when considering my posts your conclusions would be different.
Off topic of this game, I even told drealmer around time of those games about how I felt like I had missed a good chunk of discussion after waking up to find the thread moved 5 pages further.
Posted March 12, 2017
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HypersomniacLive: Since you did a full read, I wonder why there's nothing about adaliabooks, who you thought required a "deeper look" ( post #242).

And now that trentonlf clarified that he's asking for opinions on the various clashes, care to offer one?
Because what i re-read of Adalia comes off as fairly solidly town to me.
Adalia is the first to propose we reveal our pairings...seems a town thought. (Post 14)
Adalia displays giving thought to other's post, noting how Gogtrial has given some thought to the situation. (Post 18)
I may not like the "one pick from each" suggestion, but again seems like looking for a compromise. (Post 18)
And as I read on, the continuing mentality seems to me to be someone trying to figure the game out as town...

I can find some somewhat reckless speculation, but nothing I see as malicious and I can see how that can come from town being just a little too paranoid..

In short, my re-read didn't reveal anything that really concerns me. If anything, it makes me fairly convinced Adalia is town.

As to the fights, fights break out over different styles. I've seen too many town v town fights to give the existence of a fight much weight. I prefer judging by my individual reads of each participant.
Posted March 13, 2017
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HypersomniacLive: I see. Since RWarehall didn't do that, and he is the one you directly poked, why didn't you come back to him with a follow up question? And what is your own opinion on your clash with adaliabooks? What do you think of RWarehall's arguments about Hunter65536 and vice versa?

Also, you seem to avoid my comment on the lack of a vote from you. What's up with that? When did you become so rstingy with your vote? It's not like you can't take it back if developments dictate it.

.
I directly poked RW because it had been two days since he posted and I was prodding him. My whole intent with the questions was to get more discussion out of everyone, although it seems most everyone does not have a desire to have more discussion since it seems my questions get ignored for the most part.

My opinion on me and adaliabooks is that adaliabooks is taking what I did and blowing it out of proportion. He has it wrong, and I'm not sure if it's because he's scum trying to make me look bad or if he is town and just doesn't want to believe me. Either way I am not going to keep arguing the matter with him as it's just a distraction at this point.

Hunter has not even been on my radar this game, but Hunter's reaction to RW calling him out for floating and saying he believes he is scum raised my eyebrows. Hunter has not said anything about RW all game and then all of a sudden he is scum because RW called him out? No reasoning behind his initial vote, just a claim that RW is scum. First thing that came to mind was Hunter felt caught and lashed out. It looks like Hunter feels RW is misrepresenting him, but I don't see it that way.

I am not being stingy with my vote, I am honestly unsure if I have it wrong with drealmer and I am not going to vote him just to vote him. Up to this point drealmer has been my top pick because of how he's been behaving, but after seeing how Hunter reacted to RW after RW had not even been mentioned by him at all my pick is now Hunter as scum. I think Hunter is scum that feels like he got caught and lashed out.

Vote Hunter
Posted March 13, 2017
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adaliabooks: I could buy them as a scum team, but of the two I think Gamma makes a better lynch.
If Hunter is town we gain very little, if Gamma is town we can at least look again at the various pushes against him (and defences) and see if anything can be gained from it.

I would still rather drealmer or trent though.
What makes you say we gain very little in the case of Hunter65536? You say there are no pushes and/or defences to look at? What about the wagon, who will be on it and who won't?



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Lifthrasil: I'm back. Didn't read everything yet, but this sticks out:

Hunter? If you have a 'got you' epiphany, please explain. If you really have something telling on RW, share it with the rest of the players! But if you don't have something solid, your post really looks strange.
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gogtrial34987: [...] I just did, and find the overall balance of his posts to be town, given that these posts were made by him. His participation is very minimal, but it always is. What's more telling to me is the way he has defended people without need (responding to a suspicion by Gamme of first HSL, and later RW), and made the joke I pointed out earlier. This is not a strong read, but it's there all the same.
I hadn't noticed - until just writing it out here - that both his defenses were connected to Gamma, though. That might require some further thought... [...]
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drealmer7: w[...] I'll agree with you his content is lacking and he's a bit of a floater, but given his history, I'd say that could very much be indicative of him being town (and vanilla at that) with not a good grasp or picture or firmer course of action like he is used to - not saying he can't be scum and that his participation can't be what you're saying, but, I'm inclined to the more innocent lean at this point
What do you make of Hunter65536's reaction and explanation of it?



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Hunter65536: Hmm, if I was scum why would I intentionally try to be scummy? Mine is practically all covered in terms of combinations so if I was trying to sacrifice myself again I have to say it won't work very well in this context. [...]
I'm fairly certain this is not what he said/meant. His point is that he's not buying into you being town, purposefully appearing scummy to catch an actual scum.


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Hunter65536: [...] This is the post I refer to, or rather call it a shitpost because it looks really forced and a way to say anything rather than contribute something of value to the game. [...]
Putting aside your "I got you!" for the moment, and the explanation you offered for it, what would you say did you contribute to the game so far?


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Hunter65536: [...] Except gamma became less trigger happy on the lynch later on and actually started answering questions, contributing to the game and not just making up shit.
Could you point out what exactly GammaEmerald's contibution to the game has been, and what the value of it is?


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Hunter65536: Here's where I can refer to one of my previous statements, games during that time were much more (can't emphasize this enough but you already know it anyway) longer in terms of number of posts overall. That meant many more back and forths among various players than now, which is why if you took in proportions when considering my posts your conclusions would be different.
Off topic of this game, I even told drealmer around time of those games about how I felt like I had missed a good chunk of discussion after waking up to find the thread moved 5 pages further.
You're a too smart and skilled player for such a simplistic explanation; it's not about the quantity of posts. Most others somehow manage to find things to ask each other and discuss on a daily basis. Has really this little caught your interest and/or attention?



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trentonlf: [...] RW has been laying back and observing how everyone one is behaving and questioning what he finds off, for me I find this to be the town RW. From what I've seen of him as scum he is more active and pushy in his play. Not an overly pushy, but he pushes someone into making mistakes that he can exploit and it doesn't feel like he is doing that now. What is your opinion of his play so far?
OK, so I took a closer look at his previous games after dinner (not sure that was the best way to digest, though). I went as far back as game #20. Guess what I found? He's not really laid back and observing as town, not even on D1. He was active, talkative, and making arguments in every single game, either as town or scum. Which is in line with him saying that his scum game is very similar to his town one.

If anything, his play this game comes across as a choice and attempt to differentiate it from his play in recent games where he subbed in as scum. What I can't tell (yet) is what alignment this may be coming from.


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trentonlf: I directly poked RW because it had been two days since he posted and I was prodding him. My whole intent with the questions was to get more discussion out of everyone, although it seems most everyone does not have a desire to have more discussion since it seems my questions get ignored for the most part. [...]
You never follow up, so you can't really be surprised or disappointed if your questions don't get answered directly or don't generate on-going discussion for the most part.
I don't see it as people ignoring your questions, more like they have their focus elsewhere while going through the thread; you can't claim the game has stagnated, unless you find little to no interest in what is being posted.


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trentonlf: [...] Either way I am not going to keep arguing the matter with him as it's just a distraction at this point. [...]
This is a bit puzzling. Why did you ask for people's opinions, if you think the matter to be a distraction at this point?


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trentonlf: [...] Hunter has not even been on my radar this game, but Hunter's reaction to RW calling him out for floating and saying he believes he is scum raised my eyebrows. Hunter has not said anything about RW all game and then all of a sudden he is scum because RW called him out? No reasoning behind his initial vote, just a claim that RW is scum. First thing that came to mind was Hunter felt caught and lashed out. It looks like Hunter feels RW is misrepresenting him, but I don't see it that way.

[...] after seeing how Hunter reacted to RW after RW had not even been mentioned by him at all my pick is now Hunter as scum. I think Hunter is scum that feels like he got caught and lashed out.

Vote Hunter
From your experience with Hunter65536, do you think he'd just lose his cool this way as scum?
Posted March 13, 2017
End of day - 3/12/17

Votecount
drealmer7 (2): adaliabooks, Lifthrasil
GammaEmerald (1): RWarehall
adaliabooks (1): drealmer7
RWarehall (1): Hunter65536
Hunter65536 (1): trentonlf

Not Voting: GammaEmerald, gogtrial34987, HypersomiacLive

drealmer7 is closest to lynch at L-3.

@GammaEmerald - prod, please return to the game.
Post edited March 13, 2017 by cristigale
Posted March 13, 2017
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HypersomniacLive: You never follow up, so you can't really be surprised or disappointed if your questions don't get answered directly or don't generate on-going discussion for the most part.
I don't see it as people ignoring your questions, more like they have their focus elsewhere while going through the thread; you can't claim the game has stagnated, unless you find little to no interest in what is being posted.


This is a bit puzzling. Why did you ask for people's opinions, if you think the matter to be a distraction at this point?


From your experience with Hunter65536, do you think he'd just lose his cool this way as scum?
I feel as if the same thing has been happening to me for the past few games, I ask a question for everyone or make a statement and it seems to either be ignored or missed even if I ask or state it multiple times.

The distracting part is me and Adaliabooks arguing back and forth not what people think of the situation. We have both said our peace on the matter and it's up to everyone else to make up their mind what they think, that's the opinion I am asking for.

I don't put it past anyone to lose their cool in a mafia game, I know I have lost my cool in the past in the heat of the moment. I didn't like how Hunter played it, it felt off and that's why I voted.
Posted March 13, 2017
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HypersomniacLive: What do you make of Hunter65536's reaction and explanation of it?
Difficult. Hunter's reasoning is a bit thin and this 'playing scummy and vote for the one who finds my scummy play scummy' trap is bogus. It never works. I have seen it used by town in the past and it always led to a mis-lynch. And I have seen it used as excuse by scum, who were caught at acting scummy. But here's the thing, Hunter didn't claim to have used this trap, the accusation of having used this trap came from RW. And Hunter is right in one aspect: RW seems to try quite hard to find a reason to suspect Hunter. (accusing him of giving no explanation at all)
On the other hand, RW has a point too. It looks strange that Gamma rated Hunter as the most towny, although Hunter didn't participate much. And Hunter's vote on RW definitely looks strange.

So: it could be two townies going at each other or it could be one of them is scum. I don't think they are repeating their scum battle performance from last game on D1. And IF one of them is scum, I have the feeling that it is Hunter. Here's an additional reason why: Hunter said, that he participates more when he is scum. On it's own, that seems to be an innocent statement, but it can be read as twisting his own absence to LAMIST. Especially if HSL's observation is true that Hunter was more active in the games where he was town (didn't read those games yet, but at the moment I would rate HSL as towny enough to trust his re-read)

So yes, I might be convinced to vote Hunter rather than no-lynch. He is scummier than RW (who's disappearance wasn't town-friendly either), but at the moment I don't feel particularly convinced that he is actually scum.

Looking at pairings: Hunter+Gamma is a possibility. But so would be RW+adalia, who also seem to support each other, just like adalia+Gamma did in the past. ... Bah, too many possibilities. Did I ever mention, that I hate D1?

Which brings me to my main problem: drealmer. While, on it's own, I still think drealmer's performance for large stretches of the game is very scummy, he doesn't fit in any team with anyone. Also I noted, that he suspected me while I was putting pressure on him but as soon as I let go, he stopped being so aggressive too. Which is a bit different from when he was scum. There he didn't let go, but tried everything to get me mis-lynched. Now the question is: did he learn to modify his scum-game a bit? Or is he town after all? He always makes me insecure, since he always seems to play for scum, no matter which side he is on. So probably he will be lynched at some point, since we never can be sure about him (unless Gamma is lynched first and actually flips scum). But maybe he doesn't have to be lynched today and maybe he would be a mis-lynch after all.

So: unvote drealmer

sorry for flip-flopping so much on drealmer. But as I said, he really makes me insecure. And I have no clue at the moment where to put my vote now. Gamma, adalia and Hunter all seem scummy to me. But I don't know who of them is most likely to be scum at the moment.
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General discussionForum Mafia #46: Henchmen Hijinks(800 posts)(800 posts)
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