It might have been too much effort...

On the first point, I'm not sure I agree. It's a yes or no question. Even if you want to answer with nuance, it's presumably answerable.

On the latter point...
sigh.

I'm not sure I agree with your framing specifically, but...you do have me thinking that I'm doing to myself what I did in the dungeon game where I let the perfect theory become a narrative, and then ultimately a distraction.

I'm not sure it would have made any difference in the game outcome at that point (however I will stand on the opinion that town could have won with a mass claim D2, moreso as the bleepin' doctor was scum), but my overriding suspicion of CSP because of said narrative is what kept me off Hijack. And that definitely sealed the game as a loss.

So, am I perfectly capable of convincing myself there's some grand scheme or narrative in play to the point that it's a distraction for me and ultimately for town? Yes. And I came into the game with a chip. Which perhaps you guessed.

G'dammit.
/unvote yogs

I will say that, if you are scum this game and win with/despite that gambit I'm going to lose my mind and just vote you every game henceforth.

And there is zero doubt in my mind you would make this play. Zero. But it probably is wrong to steadfastly insist that 'whether you would' is the most pressing question.

NON GAME RELATED

just in case anyone is interested I am hosting the Secret Santa this year, https://www.gog.com/forum/general/secret_santa_2015

Somebody says, you or this other person must die, do I need a particular reason to say "the other guy!"? I didn't actually vote, mind you.

What defence? I don't even know what the problem is! Everyone makes such a big deal out of this, I just don't see it. It's like it's actually even possible to switch sides. I don't know what kind of explanation you want me to give.

Let's say I'm mafia. Don't mafia types have their own private chat? Why would I need to out myself like that to the others? It doesn't make any sense! I guess you could think that, since I don't take the game very seriously, I could act against my role and actually help mafia for the laughs. That's possible I guess, I know I wouldn't break the game like that but it's not like you can see what's in my head to confirm. But even if it were true, how am I supposed to know what mafia wants me to do during the collaboration? Is someone actually going to come out and post "Hey I'm mafia, please vote for HypersomniacLive, now here's your beer"?

Or maybe, now that I think about it, there's actually some bartering mechanic going on? The setting is about votes on a council after all. I mean, my role is as vanilla as they come, the whole dying for the team and all; so if there is some voting and diplomacy going around I'm not aware of it. But this would mean that the people who find it problematic are all aware of such a mechanic and don't mind disclosing it, which is strange.

And then there's the lurking thing. I've already said, I drop by and will only post more when I think things are getting serious. People start voting for lynching me, I post more, then I'm accused of lurking and posting just before the deadline. Should I have just ignored all this then?

Bah, too much thinking too early in the morning, and I gotta work, so I'll leave it at that. I'm no good at surviving mafia games, but I got to post which was my win already. If this is as far as my play takes me, then that's that.

Ok, trying to take a fresh look at the game without my prior assumption, and particularly look at the rest of the board. Doing some non-exhaustive re-read, while admittedly watching a movie.

Wrote a ton and deleted most of it because it's too speculative and/or dull to make anyone read. Three things I'll keep that caught my attention:

3) Leonard - voting for Krypsyn because "Heh." is worse than voting for Hijack because "Girls." Krypsyn may not lay things out in a straight line all the time, but... The only real read I have is that you probably aren't neutral survivor. But that's not all that helpful a conclusion. Several theories.

2) Ix On the one hand, Ix is not reading all that different from last game in general style, but 15 posts and I'd say at last half of them give me an itch. Picking just one (aside from 438 where he mentions a question about me, but includes quotes from yogs/kryp that seem to be in reference to P1na) in 459 he mentions trying to get more votes on drealmer to see if drealmer will "spill the beans" on whether there's an SK.

Please describe a likely scenario where drealmer actually has knowledge of an SK, and getting him to "spill the beans" is both a) viable, and b) desirable. I came up with one that was viable and desirable, but only because I played in game 28. And I wouldn't describe it as "likely."

A number of arguments like that that just feel a bit off-kilter.

1) Speaking of P1na...sigh. The single most inexplicable move of the game. And before that a vote with no reason at all. Followed by a complete lack of explanation or engagement. And from a player I've never played with so I have no clue what to make of it.

When I was stuck on yogs, I wondered if this was a ploy to distract on behalf of a teammate. But even that doesn't really make sense when I think about it calmly. Why distract from a wagon that was L-5 and hadn't moved in well over 24 hours? So now back to more basic theories like "slip" or "major miscalculation."

There's really only two things keeping me off this wagon right now, one being it seems another case where D1 wagon analysis may well end up being useless. I will say, even if I turn out to be wrong about yogs, I think that wagon had analysis potential precisely because it was divisive.

If there's an actual defense of P1na's play to date, esp. in the last 24 hours, I'd like to hear it. If people who've played with P1na before are likewise flummoxed, I'd like to hear that as well.

At this moment the argument for not voting P1na seems to be "I'd rather vote drealmer" and that we're looking at the possibility of a late pile of "to avoid no lynch" votes on one or the other that don't tell us much unless we do get a scum flip.


Pre-post refresh - sees P1na has posted.
On first read, I don't know that I understand, but appreciate the effort. Am falling asleep. Will re-read tomorrow.

Here we go! Wall of text time. Sorry folks, it just has to be this way because I haven't been able to keep up more.
I simply meant it as "maybe he is the SK that he possibly breadcrumbed a hint at being." I thought something was said and then someone else essentially said "maybe that makes him a SK." It caught my attention and I noted it as a possibility held by someone that I could also potentially agree with given more hints/evidence towards that. There were all caps involved, let me find it...

Really? That makes me seem more scummy than anyone else at the moment? Can you explain more why?

Hmmm, and it seems a couple people have joined in on voting me. Interesting indeed.

P1na seems to be almost trying to get votes on themselves, that is a bit disconcerting, but possibly an interesting scum tactic for people to think "no way would scum act that scummy outright so if I hide it behind obviously open reasonless play, that could be a good way to play it as scum."

I disagree with your diagreement. You call that participation? I call it closer to "pretending to participate."

Hmmm, I'd be more wary of this unvote/voting of yours if you didn't jump a bunch of wagons back and forth last game. "this one isn't going, let's try the next!" seems to be your playstyle. I don't like it. I find it inherently scummy playstyle that conveniently works for you if you're scum or town in whatever game you play. Noted and I'm keeping an eye on you, just like trent, and others (this game and all games until it changes, and even then !

I intend to have different playstyles most games (or switch between several different), because, well, all this "how they play usually" and "well in this game they did this and it meant this and in this game they did this and it meant this" crap bothers me quite a bit. Sometimes I will want to RP more. Sometimes I will have more frequent time to spend attending the game, sometimes it will be more sporadic. Sometimes it won't even be able to be helped how I'm playing (like this time) because life is dictating more-so than normal, you know? I think of HSL in the last game and how life dictated how he was able to play even with him being scum, and so it is like this for people often enough when they play, even like HijacK with classes and people with hectic work schedules and whatever else.

So, yeah, I'm not trying to "be defensive", I'm just explaining to you (and others), outwardly and directly, what I know and am comfortable sharing about my playstyle regarding frequency of posting + personality you are getting from. I don't hold it against you for questioning it at all, of course. that's healthy in this game! If you'd like to know more about what's going on in my life to dictate my playstyle currently, I will share, but, I'm wary of that because as I said previously, that might be bad practice to start bringing in to games too much given the nature of the game.

I outright said I was going to be playing this game (and most games) differently, which I think makes even more sense considering it is my 2nd forum game ever and my 1st game I stupidly dropped my role name WAY EARLY and then just kind of had to go with it (since I was telling the truth and didn't want to convolute it all with lies/deception once I realized that was not a cool playstyle for town.)

Also, I really don't like this tactic of voting someone to try and get information out of them. If you (adalia, Ix, anyone else) want to know if I know something or whatever, just ask me. It just hits me very scummy to not simply be like "why'd you say that that way?", see what my response is and if you like it, and then vote me if not/if you still feel like you should. I don't know anything about anything useful!
Yeah, I found his play last game to be antagonistic to town quite a bit as well, and even moreso in this game. He's critical of people's play styles that seem anti-town, and play very anti-town themselves. Even when town. Bothersome.
I'd never heard that expression before, and had to look it up. Cool. (and then I read the next post after typing this and see trent said the same thing, haha!)

Is it an odd tactic to announce/suggest that role when no other roles have been hinted at in the slightest? Or is it a good preemptive tactic to draw the attempted kill as early on in the game as you can? Not just asking you, but asking all, especially more experienced players.

He's voted, isn't that essentially "the sting." It might not be formulated to absolute conclusion in his premises/postings, but, how can it really be given the current point we are in in the game. In general it's good to discuss and analyze without necessarily drawing conclusions right away, but, is what he specifically doing in some/all of his posts intended to be contributory or distracting/convoluting is the question that needs answered in everyone's minds, imo. Truth is also he's voted and that, combined with everything said by him (because he's actually said stuff, unlike others) seems fair enough at this point. However, it is certain parts of it all (like yogsloth points out in 457) , where bler is asking yogs (or whomever else) to analyze and divulge ALL aspects of his playstyles almost, and that is definitely something that, if someone is going to ever do, would probably be done not mid-game in the thread. So yeah, bler goes back and forth for me being questionable + reasonable in his doings. Scum or not? Scum or not? ARRGH. This deadline is starting to worry me a bit actually. I hate having to pick on D1!

Errr, first: I'm a dude. Second: as I said up there ^ somewhere, voting on someone to get them to talk is extremely scummy to me. If you're town, to me, you'd JUST ASK what I meant first, then judge my response and deem if it is worthy of your vote. I've still got a bunch of posts to catch up on, but, right now you're heading towards the top of my possible-to-vote list. I don't want to be too reactionary to cast my vote on you, I have until monday to decide, and until then, especially on D1, I'm more comfortable not voting until given good cause (like the deadline, so, someone will likely have my vote come then.) Perhaps given the impending deadline I should cast a vote to get discussion generated on it/see if it gathers any mustard (heh), but, until I'm done reading all of the posts at least, I'm not comfortable casting one yet (looks like Ix, p1na, or flubb, or maybe yogs or one of the 1st 4 on the yog wagon at this point seem most likely to be chosen by me at this point though, just to keep you all updated.)

Actually, I have a good number of posts to go it looks so (mostly from bler, it seems, giving a quick scroll down to get an idea!), I'm going to post this now, and continue on reading more/typing up my responses+whatever else I might have to contribute in another post.

Here is
I was referring to with "the SK", as in "the SK previously mentioned/suggested might exist by someone else (flub+bookwrym) initially."

Also, If I thought there was a serial killer I think I'd be like "OMG this person is a serial killer, let's kill them!"

Also, upon reading back through a bunch of the previous posts again, my brain has stumbled upon the possibility of the existence of another faction in play here aside from the mob, pushing a secret agenda that was not directly called out as scum by QuadrAlien or anyone else yet. For me it explains more p1na's playstyle so far, as well as a couple others that don't necessarily seem scummy, but seem not quite on the same page either. It seems logical given the setup. I'd like to hear what others think about this idea.

I know, I know, I thought the same thing last game (there kind of was wasn't there? with the "backup" droids that were a pro-town group but with kind of different win conditions/parameters that had them sacrifice themself to save crew/town, if I understood it correctly, as, we've still not gotten the full info on what was what in that game yet, which I suppose I am fine with given I'd love to play that setup again!)

Okay, now catching up on the rest of the posts after 459.

*hoping for a kind soul to give me a bump!* *twiddles thumbs* no? no one?! *twiddles*....

BOOM! 10 mins!

EBWOP!

fuck, I swear (see, I just did) I entered the link and the words "the post" and gave the link in that last post of mine...*sigh*...I haven't been getting much sleep.

here is THE POST !!!!!!!!! (never had it suck so hard in these forums to wait 10 minutes before!! ARRRR!!!)

relevant text from the post which I should have put in my previous post:

*hoping for a kind soul to give me a bump!* *twiddles thumbs* no? no one?! *twiddles*....

BOOM! 10 mins!

EBWOP!

fuck, I swear (see, I just did) I entered the link and the words "the post" and gave the link in that last post of mine...*sigh*...I haven't been getting much sleep.

here is THE POST !!!!!!!!! (never had it suck so hard in these forums to wait 10 minutes before!! ARRRR!!!)

relevant text from the post which I should have put in my previous post:

wtf just happened??? (and of course, I typed that, and then had to wait 10 minutes to post it, so it's no longer accurate as "just"...so now..."wtf just happened10 MINUTES AGO!!!!!")

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! *tries not to lose it*

I'm very sorry everyone, if it helps at all been really stressed and sleep deprived, and of course GOG forums formatting/operations suck. I guess we'll see what happens.

I'm standing over here (I stand a lot at my computer, it's better for the back) in distress over what my accidental edit's consequences will be, reading through the rest of the posts I have to catch up on and contribute to before I possibly get modkilled or "knocked unconscious" for a day or something like that and I read this post of yours and get to this point and, despite all the crap going on in life lately, I laughed out loud and was like "seriously this!!!" Iif he's scum this game AGAIN and doing this gambit, as you say he might be...aaarrr!!! He deceived everyone the first game [not that he was too much a focus, which leads me to think he's town more in this game because of the "drawing himself as a target" kind of thing he's done] I was in and essentially got the better of everyone and "won" the game even though it didn't conclude and was semi-broken.

Oh shit! I just had another paranoid thought. What if bler and yogs are both scum playing some crazy game? Okay, I think my mind can't handle mafia anymore at the moment, I'm going to go do something else (after I read the REST of the posts after 467 now...I think I can handle that, it doesn't look like TOO much.) Back at some point, err, I hope (please no modkill! can I beg? is that allowed?)

wtf?
same view here.

I'd like to hear what everyone has to say about p1na at this point as to me they seem most viable lynch option as of now (good point by bler saying it could be possibly a useless flip at this point, BUT, I at least think it could besomewhat useful, perhaps just not as useful as some others, but it's still the vote I'm most comfortable with at this point. I don't try to make a lynche happen to read flips, I do it to try and catch scum/vote for the scummiest player. To me, not taking the game very seriously/to such the degree that P1na is might actually be a "policy lynch." I don't like that attitude in any game I play with people, and it certainly isn't befitting this game.

THIS IS SERIOUS, we've got to decide on who to ELIMINATE. and p1na is all "beers and reasonless votes and I don't care!!" Ummm, yep, okay, I've accumulated enough "reason" (as much as it goes on D1), it's close enough to deadline, and I don't know what will happen with my edit either, so, it's definitely time for me to vote.


Vote P1na

Hey, now I feel a bit more relaxed and am able to handle the mafia, so, if anyone wants to hear more from me, I'll be around for a bit more until I get sleepy (sleeping hours are SO WHACKED right now!)

Another thought: I would like to think that "eliminate" and "lynch" in this game mean: "remove them from the closed conference we are having and get them investigated by an authority (lifthrasil with the flip info) to determine if they are mafia or not or what their associations might be."

We, as a civil group of citizens and law-makers trying to pass a vote as a committee, shouldn't be resorting to murderings of suspected mafia members once we reach a majority vote, you know? We must give them to the proper authorities to be investigated and bring them to justice accordingly. I trust lfithrasil to not be a corrupt authority and to treat our vote selections justly and give us a fair result once they are "selected" via majority vote (errr "they", heh, or me, of course!)

See, that is RP and is completely understandable in game terms to me, because it works perfectly with the setup.

votecount, please?

I "ignored" nothing.

As I clearly stated, the names listed were examples of players not specific instances of player's typical behavior.

Pedantic much??

I actually read all that!

Unvote drealmer

Drealmer sorta kinda maybe mentioned it in his post (whoops!). I don't think we gain too much more from talking about it today though - food for thought for later. And I didn't want drealmer to go into a ton of detail, I was mostly interesting in whether or not we had a real reason to immediately start operating on the assumption that there was a serial killer in the game.

haha! *bakes you and everyone else cookies* (peanut butter is my specialty, NOMNOMNOM.)

Thanks for reading! I tried to be as concise as I could!