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General discussionForum etiquette (discussion) and welcome to a new CM(779 posts)(779 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 29, 2016
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haydenaurion: It saddens me too as I used to be for all free speech, even that which I found hateful and disagreed with.

As to those threatening to take their business elsewhere if the rules tighten, i'd rather gog shutdown from the resulting lower sales than have its forums turn into another platform for hate.
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Emob78: But that's because as Americans we are used to appreciating living in a nation that protects speech we DON'T agree with. That's kind of the point of freedom.

But hey, all drama stuff aside, I'm making this line in the sand because I know where this rhetoric ends up going. I've been a mod before. I would just rather skip several grades and go straight to the issue. And since we now have a 'community manager' that approves of the concept of hate speech and most likely the methods used to fight it, I can take appropriate steps to protect my sanity (not to mention my time and my money).

Not into making threats or being dramatic. I would just rather come to an early understanding with who and what I'm dealing with.
You have then to get acquainted to the European notion of "free speech" and "hate speech"...

Example:
some random on Twitter:
"Fuck migrants cockroaches, they steal all our government money!"
=> that can be qualified as hate speech and be sued.

Saying the same thing, the sneaky way (It's almost a game to not get caught ^^)
"The weight of immigration: 1,3 billion of € of the government budget in 2016 so far (gov' source)"
=> can't be sued.

So, you can make the Side of the Greater Good cringe while staying away from hate speech, pretty simple ;)
Posted November 29, 2016
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haydenaurion: If people on this forum want to label me an "SJW" or spew their hate at me for that so be it, I don't care anymore. I've stayed neutral and stayed out of it for too long.
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Vainamoinen: Thanks for speaking up. I personally have nothing but upvotes for you.

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haydenaurion: It saddens me too as I used to be for all free speech, even that which I found hateful and disagreed with.
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Vainamoinen: Heck, I'd rather define "hate speech" than "free speech". Neither is clear cut. But both may literally infringe on the freedom of others, and that's the line in the sand that we must pay a whole lot more attention to.
Normally i'm more reserved and quiet on these type of things as I don't like stirring things up and getting into pointless arguments with those who will likely never agree, but the things that went down this year just brought it out of me.

To the second part, that's what some people don't understand. It's not about "safe spaces", it's about not letting the darker side of free speech get out of control to the point it has a real negative impact on the lives of others. Something your country knows all too well if you don't mind me saying.
Posted November 29, 2016
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Emob78: But that's because as Americans we are used to appreciating living in a nation that protects speech we DON'T agree with. That's kind of the point of freedom.

But hey, all drama stuff aside, I'm making this line in the sand because I know where this rhetoric ends up going. I've been a mod before. I would just rather skip several grades and go straight to the issue. And since we now have a 'community manager' that approves of the concept of hate speech and most likely the methods used to fight it, I can take appropriate steps to protect my sanity (not to mention my time and my money).

Not into making threats or being dramatic. I would just rather come to an early understanding with who and what I'm dealing with.
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catpower1980: You have then to get acquainted to the European notion of "free speech" and "hate speech"...

Example:
some random on Twitter:
"Fuck migrants cockroaches, they steal all our government money!"
=> that can be qualified as hate speech and be sued.

Saying the same thing, the sneaky way (It's almost a game to not get caught ^^)
"The weight of immigration: 1,3 billion of € of the government budget in 2016 so far (gov' source)"
=> can't be sued.

So, you can make the Side of the Greater Good cringe while staying away from hate speech, pretty simple ;)
I'd rather not. My ancestors left that cesspit for good reasons. Political and religious persecution, worshiping families of inbred royals... and warm beer? Not agreeable at all. I'll take freedom, guns, and ice cubes.
Posted November 29, 2016
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deleted
Post edited November 29, 2016 by Fairfox
Posted November 29, 2016
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227: Curious how this will end up turning out, because the same general neglect that's allowed more trollish members to thrive has also made it possible to discuss controversial things.
Has it? Has it really? Because I clearly remember that we've managed to discuss some potentially incendiary things in earnest and good faith that we were both wildly disagreeing on, right until the moment "trollish" and hateful members stepped in with "opinions" of their own.
Posted November 29, 2016
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fables22: I disagree. Hate speech isn't subjective - it's something that's been defined and embedded in many legal documents - and from those definitions it also becomes quite clear that it is not an oxymoron. The problem with it is that the definitions vary slightly, but more importantly that people's perceptions of it vary a great deal.
IMHO The problem is that nowadays words like "hate speech", "racism", "sexism", "whatever-phobia" have been so overused and so abused that they lose a lot of their meaning. I think that's why, even thought it perfectly normal to police real hate speech especially on a commercial forum, some peoples are worried that it will become an excuse to censor anything that some of the over-offendable Twitter/Tumblr denizens might find offensive.

Concerning the forum; yes there was abuse, posters who made thread / post that gone too far, that were, really, racist, insulting, etc... and I personally think that some moderation wouldn't hurt, but on the other side that were was also posters (some of them participating in this very thread) who tried continuously to paint as racist / sexist / biggot / uneducated / (the list goes on with the billions of other hype words of the week) everybody who dared disagree with them and who would consider as "good moderation" removing every idea, discussion, opinion, person they deem as problematic.

So personally I am in a wait and see mode, as I said earlier I think that some moderation would be a good thing, but as long as moderators try to remain as neutral and fair as possible, and moderate based on clear rules and not based on fear of causing any controversy... but it's not going to be easy...
Posted November 29, 2016
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Vainamoinen: Has it? Has it really? Because I clearly remember that we've managed to discuss some potentially incendiary things in earnest and good faith that we were both wildly disagreeing on, right until the moment "trollish" and hateful members stepped in with "opinions" of their own.
Yes, but in topics that all but a rare few forums shut down all discussion of before such earnest and good faith conversations could be allowed to occur. I wouldn't personally mind something to calm down members or compel them to disagree in less explosive ways. It's the possibility of such a discussion being disallowed in the beginning that I'm worried about.

Well, "worried." Internet worried, which is like normal worry divided by ten.
Posted November 29, 2016
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catpower1980: Example:
some random on Twitter:
"Fuck migrants cockroaches, they steal all our government money!"
=> that can be qualified as hate speech and be sued.

Saying the same thing, the sneaky way (It's almost a game to not get caught ^^)
"The weight of immigration: 1,3 billion of € of the government budget in 2016 so far (gov' source)"
=> can't be sued.

So, you can make the Side of the Greater Good cringe while staying away from hate speech, pretty simple ;)
Sure, but a gaming forum post is not a newspaper front page or a policy maker's declaration. Sneaky/polite hate won't get the exposure and will be debunked and laughed at (see: the Infowars thread). On the other hand, "nigger nigger nigger" achieves its purpose no matter how many downvotes it gets.
Posted November 29, 2016
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fables22: I said before that I don't want to set out rules that the community doesn't agree with, hence why I've spent quite a lot of time trying to find out what it is that the community does want and agree with.
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227: That must have been very confusing; it's unlikely we could all agree on what color the sky is, much less what kinds of rules this place could use.

Curious how this will end up turning out, because the same general neglect that's allowed more trollish members to thrive has also made it possible to discuss controversial things. On other forums, such topics tend to be instantly stamped out without anyone being given the opportunity to discuss whether the controversy and labels are deserved or manufactured. It makes those places more inviting and "safe," I suppose, but they also tend to be less varied and interesting. There are so many forums out there being strangled by a fake, rule-enforced sense of peace that this place has always seemed uniquely refreshing because of its rawness. Besides, it's easy enough to be awful well within the confines of even the strictest rules. Passive-aggressive button pushing is an art. Possibly a martial art.

I suppose that's just a roundabout way of saying that I hope you find a middle ground where everyone can be equally upset about the changes. It'd be nice if outright threats were taken care of while everyone was still free to express unusual views and challenge those of others, but that's just my take and reasonable people will no doubt disagree.
Yep, it has been confusing, but I didn't get into a debate about it to have it come out with a clear-cut solution. I suppose what I'm looking for is something that'll work for most people and address their concerns, while also encouraging lively and fairly free discussion. So yes, I'm hoping I can find a middle ground, but obviously I know for a fact already that some people will never be pleased by any changes, while also being unhappy with the current set up. It's a tough one for sure.
Posted November 29, 2016
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haydenaurion: It saddens me too as I used to be for all free speech, even that which I found hateful and disagreed with.

As to those threatening to take their business elsewhere if the rules tighten, i'd rather gog shutdown from the resulting lower sales than have its forums turn into another platform for hate.
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Emob78: But that's because as Americans we are used to appreciating living in a nation that protects speech we DON'T agree with. That's kind of the point of freedom.
I'd be nice if the country took the same approach in regards to basic civil equal rights for those I know and love, but it seems that's not to be.
Post edited November 29, 2016 by haydenaurion
Posted November 29, 2016
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fables22: I know for a fact already that some people will never be pleased by any changes
Relevant.
Posted November 29, 2016
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227: Curious how this will end up turning out, because the same general neglect that's allowed more trollish members to thrive has also made it possible to discuss controversial things. On other forums, such topics tend to be instantly stamped out without anyone being given the opportunity to discuss whether the controversy and labels are deserved or manufactured. It makes those places more inviting and "safe," I suppose, but they also tend to be less varied and interesting.
I've seen some forums go into "one true worldview, everything controversial will be stamped" mode, true, like RPGnet, but I've also seen forums where political/social arguments have been allowed to exist, but contained.
My favourite haunt is a ttrpg forum with a simple rule : You can argue about games or have light conversations all you want, but all controversial "real life" stuff (politics, religions, society, etc...) has to be respectful of the other users, legal and kept in one specific thread. Whatever the subject might be, it has to be posted there, and not in the friendly discutions in the rest of the site. When said thread gets to page 100 every few weeks, a mod locks it down and open a new one.
That way, there is only one place where "warfare posts" can be found and argued about. You can avoid it all you want, and anytime another thread gets ugly, the mods can remind everyone that the playground is over there.

It sometimes gets locked for a few hours when tempers flare up and insults start flying (so that everyone has some time to cool off), but it mostly stays civil and allows a light handed moderation.
You can also find a "let's talk about my life" thread, for example

It's a solution that works in a small forum environment, though, not a big international commercial website (most active RPG forum in France, but it's Tabletop RPGs we're talking about, so it stays a small community)
Post edited November 29, 2016 by Kardwill
Posted November 29, 2016
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Kardwill: It's a solution that works in a small forum environment, though, not a big international commercial website (most active RPG forum in France, but it's Tabletop RPGs we're talking about, so it stays a small community)
Honestly I am not convinced that GoG community is really that much bigger.
Posted November 29, 2016
How about rather than going after just "hate speech", go after all serious abuse and harassment including those who paint others as racist/homophobic/xenophobic etc just for saying something as benign as Trump isn't all that bad. People don't need to be called these names for having a valid opinion and people don't need to be constantly threatened with reports to be banned from the forums. This sort of harassment is just as harmful to the community.

If you go down this route, you need to enforce it fairly. Because some of these so-called "anti hate speech" advocates are just as hateful as the worst on the forums. And they use the fact they are "fighting hate speech" as a free pass for their own abuse and harassment of other members of the forums.

Just look at all of the Trump talk. He hasn't been in office yet. Hasn't actually done a single thing, yet people are talking about all the rights they have lost somehow. That supporting him is "hate speech" and all the name calling that follows...
Posted November 29, 2016
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RWarehall: How about rather than going after just "hate speech", go after all serious abuse and harassment including those who paint others as racist/homophobic/xenophobic etc just for saying something as benign as Trump isn't all that bad. People don't need to be called these names for having a valid opinion and people don't need to be constantly threatened with reports to be banned from the forums. This sort of harassment is just as harmful to the community.

If you go down this route, you need to enforce it fairly. Because some of these so-called "anti hate speech" advocates are just as hateful as the worst on the forums. And they use the fact they are "fighting hate speech" as a free pass for their own abuse and harassment of other members of the forums.

Just look at all of the Trump talk. He hasn't been in office yet. Hasn't actually done a single thing, yet people are talking about all the rights they have lost somehow. That supporting him is "hate speech" and all the name calling that follows...
You are right, it all boils down to fair treatment, which would need to be implied.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionForum etiquette (discussion) and welcome to a new CM(779 posts)(779 posts)
(779 posts)