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paladin181: I was trying to keep names out of it. :P
Considering we have only one person that fit the description you gave, I'm pretty sure it was bleeding obvious.
That's like me complaining about how CERTAIN TENTACLED INDIVIDUALS who shall NOT BE NAMED are scaring their donkeys with the amount of Lego porn they post.
Kind of impossible to miss the mark there.

Besides, it's not like what I said necessarily had anything to do with who you were talking about. I brought up dtgreene out of my own free will. You could very well be talking about somebody else for all I know.
Post edited November 16, 2016 by zeogold
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zeogold: Considering we have only one person that fit the description you gave, I'm pretty sure it was bleeding obvious.
That's like me complaining about how CERTAIN TENTACLED INDIVIDUALS who shall NOT BE NAMED are scaring their donkeys with the amount of Lego porn they post.
Kind of impossible to miss the mark there.
regals?

I assume?
Nothing to see here. Just pretend I made a joke about printers.
Post edited November 16, 2016 by zeogold
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zeogold: replying again because of page bug not letting me edit:
It's not like what I said necessarily had anything to do with who you were talking about. I brought up dtgreene out of my own free will. You could very well be talking about somebody else for all I know.
Hahahahaha. I love this place.
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zeogold: Considering we have only one person that fit the description you gave, I'm pretty sure it was bleeding obvious.
That's like me complaining about how CERTAIN TENTACLED INDIVIDUALS who shall NOT BE NAMED are scaring their donkeys with the amount of Lego porn they post.
Kind of impossible to miss the mark there.
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Goodaltgamer: regals?

I assume?
Nope, it was Eram, but good guess.
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zeogold: There's a difference between "Doesn't Islam allow pedophilia?" to "lol look at dem child rapists nuke 'em prez Trump".
The difference here is that the former sounds like a honest question, which is always a valid investigation, and supposes that a rigorous research would bring the answer. But this is not how racist discourses function. Racism requires and pre-supposes the answer.

What I call racism (broadly, independantly from the notion of biological racialism), is the attribution of trait A to a group of people which is defined by trait B, with a wrongly determinist assumption that A implies B.

For instance : If your skin is black then you are a criminal. If you are a muslim then you are an islamist. If you are homosexual then you are a pedophile. Etc.

These claims benefit from our brain's natural quest for categories, simplifications, and "economical" (effort-wise) understanding of the world. To be fair, one has to explain stuff like the reasons of the over-represented poverty in violent crimes, and the over-represented "blackness" in poverty, and the pervasive cognitive trap of "x% of A are B implies that x% of B are A". Or expose the diversity of islam and the problem of salafism. Or point out heterosexual pedophilia and the nature of most homosexual relationships. But these discussions operate in a context of honest questionning. Many people avoid this work, for many (self-serving) reasons, and are even encouraged to avoid it (demagogic propaganda). This is where racism resides.

In honest contexts (that is, outside manipulative rhetorical constructions), "a rapist has raped", is not racist. "A mexican is mexican" is not racist. "This mexican is a rapist" is not racist. "Are mexicans rapists ?" is not racist. "Mexicans are rapists" is racist. "Most mexicans are rapists" is racist. When the underlying intention is to convince people or oneself that there is a reason to assume that a random mexican is a rapist, it is racism. And there are many reasons to have this intention : To protect one's identity as member of a group who always claimed it ("my daddy/party is right"), to avoid facing the complicated issue of migrations ("anyway they are evil"), to feel superior ("at least i am not mexican"), to gather votes ("i will protect you against that enemy"), to grasp the world easily ("ah so the rapists are the mexicans are the rapists, okay, next"), etc. And, given these motives, actual factual scientific arguments miss the point. They don't weaken it. And what reinforce it is "everyday thinks that" and "i am not a bad person for indulging in these thought processes". Both are encouraged by propaganda.

You escape racism when you cease to assume that such vaguely defined large heterogeneous categories determine irrelevant traits. When you complexify it. And you encourage racism when you deliberately strengthen such essentialist beliefs through rhetorics (distored, filtered, selected, simplified, decontextualized data, etc). It's a matter of methodology, but, above all, of the underlying intention that defines it.

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zeogold: These types of people would be where I draw the line, since they promote violence against these particular groups (again, I do understand what you're getting at though, that stirring up these kind of thoughts is what breeds violence).
The problem -the truly difficult problem- is where to draw the line. Because, even in the cases of genocides, there is a long process behind it. The first steps are about shaping "common sense" around some unquestionned association of a group identity and a nasty trait (or series of nasty traits). Once this is established, you can process to violences. But, without going that far, you also favour a whole range of self-righteous self-justified discriminations, in attitudes, in sense of human responsability, in degree of empathy, in expectations and interpretations, etc. And as far as I am concerned, these are already very bad things. Which should be avoided. Which can be avoided, by discouraging the underlying racist worldviews.
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zeogold: Just pretend I made a joke about printers.
Was there ink involved?
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dtgreene: My idea, which I mentioned some time ago, is that normal users should not be able to decrease the rep of other users; that capability should be reserved for blues, and only be used when someone's post actually violates the rules. I think this is the only way to stop downrep abuse without throwing out rep entirely.
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zeogold: That's working off the assumption that the downvote button is reserved solely for annoying/abusive posts, which isn't necessarily true. It could be used as a means of "I disagree" depending on how you look at it.
Plus, it still doesn't solve the issue of accounts pumping their rep up in an attempt to look good or something. We had swatkat to show us how THAT could go wrong.
Thing is, I don't think using rep just because people disagree with you is fair. The change I suggest would be to keep the button, but make it not take away rep, and make it so that low rated topics aren't automatically grayed out.

(My proposal doesn't claim to address uprep abuse.)
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dtgreene: .
Hiya Miss Dee, I've just bathed and deodorised.

I'm antibacterial.
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Telika: In honest contexts (that is, outside manipulative rhetorical constructions), "a rapist has raped", is not racist. "A mexican is mexican" is not racist. "This mexican is a rapist" is not racist. "Are mexicans rapists ?" is not racist. "Mexicans are rapists" is racist. "Most mexicans are rapists" is racist. When the underlying intention is to convince people or oneself that there is a reason to assume that a random mexican is a rapist, it is racism. And there are many reasons to have this intention : To protect one's identity as member of a group who always claimed it ("my daddy/party is right"), to avoid facing the complicated issue of migrations ("anyway they are evil"), to feel superior ("at least i am not mexican"), to gather votes ("i will protect you against that enemy"), to grasp the world easily ("ah so the rapists are the mexicans are the rapists, okay, next"), etc. And, given these motives, actual factual scientific arguments miss the point. They don't weaken it. And what reinforce it is "everyday thinks that" and "i am not a bad person for indulging in these thought processes". Both are encouraged by propaganda.
Then it seems we're actually in agreement except for on how to properly moderate and/or report such conduct.
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Telika: The problem -the truly difficult problem- is where to draw the line.
Which is exactly the task that poor Fables has been saddled with:
How do you differentiate between quelling of hate speech and censorship?
Post edited November 16, 2016 by zeogold
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Telika: In honest contexts (that is, outside manipulative rhetorical constructions), [...] "A mexican is mexican" is not racist.
Here's something to consider. First, I am going to transpose that statement to refer to a different group. "A black person is black" is still not racist. Now, I will make one change to it: "A nigger is black" is, indeed, a racist statement, because it contains a racial slur.

There are other slurs as well, like "faggot" (not to be confused with the german "fagott") and "tranny", that are equally as offensive as "nigger"; they refer to different (but not disjoint!) groups.

Another issue is that context can matter. For example, "gay" and "autistic" aren't necessarily offensive, but when used as insults, they are. Another example is "queer", which is often used as an insult (particularly when used as a noun), but has been reclaimed by many queer people.
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dtgreene: Thing is, I don't think using rep just because people disagree with you is fair.
Well, that's going to be a matter of personal opinion that will no doubt vary depending on who you ask.
Personally, I still say we just do away with rep altogether. The only thing it's good for these days is passing jokes.

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Telika: In honest contexts (that is, outside manipulative rhetorical constructions), [...] "A mexican is mexican" is not racist.
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dtgreene: Here's something to consider. First, I am going to transpose that statement to refer to a different group. "A black person is black" is still not racist. Now, I will make one change to it: "A nigger is black" is, indeed, a racist statement, because it contains a racial slur.

There are other slurs as well, like "faggot" (not to be confused with the german "fagott") and "tranny", that are equally as offensive as "nigger"; they refer to different (but not disjoint!) groups.

Another issue is that context can matter. For example, "gay" and "autistic" aren't necessarily offensive, but when used as insults, they are. Another example is "queer", which is often used as an insult (particularly when used as a noun), but has been reclaimed by many queer people.
Well, that's still insult territory and not so much the gray area of "I think Mexicans are rapists because of X statistics" or something.
Post edited November 16, 2016 by zeogold
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dtgreene: "tranny"
You keep saying this, but how exactly is tranny offensive?

It's just a shortened way of saying transsexual and no more offensive than calling someone dude, guy, chick or whatever.

And tranny is also Aussie slang for transistor radio.

As in, I just turned on the tranny.
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Kleetus: You keep saying this, but how exactly is tranny offensive?
As I said (and dtgreene and others): context

Right there in post 1
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Kleetus: dude
You seem to forget that dtgreene is offended by that as well.
And by capitalization of her username.