Due to your claim.
Assuming your claim is true, you cannot be converted. You should not be lynched (nor proposed to be lynched). You should not be vigged. You can thin the cult, and the cult suspects. And if you do get kamikazed, then we'll know the CL is gone (and quite likely, who the CL was), as well as having an approximation of remaining cult members (with the starting number being the variable).
If on the other hand you are lying, then it's also a massive information gain for town. We either lynch the CL on D3, knowing who they visited on N1, or we know the CL had at least one partner during D1.

So yes, I do find verifying you to be extremely important.

Alright. Remind me of your plan for verification again, please.

D2 you say your N1 target, and we lynch them. If you are lying (thus either CL or the +1 cultist), tracker can expose you.
If your target flips town, you are either the deprogrammer or a CL who get extremely lucky and hit the deprogrammer's target. If your target flips cult, then you are the CL and we lynch you on D3.
Yes, this does mean that the tracker should be tracking you tonight.

Plan is ok. But by this plan you are steering the tracker and problem is that CL shall know who tracker will be tracking. While if Bookwyrm is not a Deprogrammer, a real Deprogrammer can simply deprogram Bookwyrm at night. And thus, is Bookwyrm is CL, he shall remain powerless. But we won't know that as per rules, so real Deprogrammer in this scenario can still stay hidden.

What I am saying, is - let the Deprogrammer do his/her thing, for (s)he is perfectly capable of handling situation while not putting him/herself and tracker at the risk.

Huh.

Do you see the problem wth this plan? Like how it doesn't actually verify me?

A big reason I'm leaning against dessimu possibly being the CL is because to me it makes sense for the CL to try and make allies during the voting process on D1 and D2. What ally has dess made? Me, mostly. If I were not me and I were the CL and I wanted to try and gain some allies, I wouldn't ally with drealmer, no one likes that guy or listens to him or follows anything he says and by allying with him, I'm likely alienating myself from others more. I also wouldn't dream of recruiting drealmer if I were the CL, but then, maybe the CL is depending on everyone thinking that. Anyway, plus dess shares some simliar thoughts I do, which I agree could be fabricated to be in line with my thoughts to make it seem like he has beef with RW while not really just to get me on his side, but I think he could have/would have chosen much better players to do that with.

You guys are making me nuts with this talk!

There are issues with all of this pretty much and a big hole too.

The things I'll say:

I am not just going to blindly lynch whoever wyrm says he deprogrammed, nor should anyone else be expected to. You are also going on the assumption that the tracker agrees with the "plan."

It's all just bad ideas, imo.

I really say we just let things unfold rather than openly plan and talk about them. If that is what wyrm wants to do, he'll do it, if not, he'll not. Whatever happens, we should talk about it and make our evaluations on it all then. As it is now, it's pointless.

okay, so...

In a standard 12 player mafia game worst case scenario is:

a.)
D1 - 9v3
D2 - 7v3
D3 - 5v3 - game over at night

in this game it is either:

b.)
D1 - 10v2
D2 - 8v3
D3 - 6v4 - game over at night

or

c.)
D1 - 11v1
D2 - 9v2
D3 - 7v3
D4 - 5v4 - game over end of day

For me, it is impossible to say if it is b.) or c.) simply because of how a "normal" mafia game would go because of the different mechanics and the direction the numbers are going and all of it, but I am actually more inclined to think it is CL + 1, now. I should have done that little chart to start. With me thinking it more possible that the odds are a bit different, that slightly reduces the strength of the no-lynch idea for me, but, doesn't completely remove it from a viable option, imo, and RW's vehemence against it seems very odd to me.

With that, I start to try and look at who could be allies. At first, flub and RW struck me as possibly having some fabricated contention (I couldn't tell if it was real or not and the idea came to my mind while reading them, so must remain open to the possibility it was 2 cultists distancing themselves from each other), then I thought I "felt" some possible connection between RW and fantasysci5, but the real problem with any of that is that NOT enough people are talking enough. We need more back and forth between everyone, still (I know, it is D1), to really start to have that picture make more sense.

anyway, RW is the only one I see reason to vote for atm, while babark isn't participating as much as I'd like, the lurking hasn't offended me so much, yet, to want to vote him, and flub is doing his normal lurk thing, but the bits he has contributed have been weighty enough that I'm not inclined to vote him at all either.

OOoo, one important thing I forgot to note with those numbers above that kind of changes things too is that we have a 1x-vig.

Chances are the vig. uses his kill in the first 3 nights too, and so, yeh, maybe it is more likely option c.)

gah!

errrm, yep, now I'm thinking with the vig. option c.) makes more sense

ohman...

I'ma be quiet now

*passes out bowls* (eating bowls, folks!)

I actually don't, thus why I'm discussing it. Please enlighten me.

Chiming in on my opinion of the Bookwyrm Deprogrammer debacle.

I don't believe Bookwyrm is the deprogrammer or main cult leader. I am inclined to believe he might be part of the cult. If he was really the deprogrammer, he wouldn't want the cult to have that much knowledge, and he wouldn't want the tracker to waste time on him when they are supposed to collectively find the cult members. If he was the main cult leader, he would be placing himself out there for the tracker with a greater chance of being found out than if he had not said anything. The only thing I can think of if he is part of the cult and trying to take away suspicion of the real cult leader so the town people waste their time on him. That being said, I'm not 100% sure he is part of the cult. Or he could just be a regular townie that's trying to distract the cult from the real deprogrammer. Either way, it's a diversion.

Oh, and I forget who asked, but I am a girl for reference purposes.

Unvote Drealmer

Vote Dessimu

I'd rather not have a split vote no lynch with the deadline tomorrow, and he's one of my preferred lynch candidates anyway. I do think we should keep an eye on Drealmer though.

And just in case we hit lynch / deadline before I'm around again Bookwyrm I'll reiterate I wouldn't mind seeing your target in advance.

Yeah, I'm REALLY not a fan of the "Do nothing, say nothing, discuss nothing, just sit around and let the PR do their things" plan. It sounds incredibly silly, and sort of negates the entire point of this exercise.
Not sure it makes drealmer7 scumworthy, though, because as far as I understand, he's always like this :D. So not sure about voting for him.

RW was goofy with youtubelinking earlier, and then got caught up in pointless semantic bickering afterwards, which again, I'm not sure is scumworthy, although creating or propagating pointless arguments may be something scum would like to do. But then again, why draw one of their own into it? So not sure about RW either.

I've no preference for no-lynch, I guess I just haven't decided yet.

I didn't forget, it's just unrealistic. And your claim it "throws my math all out the window" means you are very bad at math. The approximations are valid and what you seem to be doing is falsely using the added complications as a strawman to dismiss my entire argument. Is it possible you had this plan to lead us to waste targets? Are you cult?

You are claiming to count on two uninformed "shots in the dark" vs the Cults "shooting in a barrel - sure thing" where they get their choice of convert and we lose a likely useful player and seemingly claim they balance each other somehow. You shouldn't be soft playing the strength of that power. You are the one proposing a bad plan which shifts resources into targeting townies. A plan the has a fatal flaw (besides giving up 2 shots at the real Cult Leader). But it would be really funny to watch when his target flips cult and you lynch Bookwyrm and he flips town.

Remember, killing the Cult Leader is only step one to a win. We will still have to clean up the mess. I've arbitrarily assigned D3 as the deadline because otherwise there are likely too many other cultists still alive to catch them all. Maybe we get extremely lucky and kill a few cultists on the way to D3 and can get away with a later hit of the cultist, but we'd be pushing it. If one slips through, we still lose. it's why its so imperative we keep the recruitment to a minimum. How many additional times will you have us guess right to win by wasting our targets on people we suspect as townies? And how many lynches will have to succeed against a near 50-50 breakdown? Do you think we can actually get the lynch we should want against 4 cultists? Especially when they will likely have recruited someone previously cleared as not Cult.

The best course of action should be very simple. Each and every power role (and our lynch) should be trying to target the most likely to be Cult Leader, until we think he's either dead, or it's late enough we have to hope he is. Unlike a normal game, where there is decent value in confirming townies, this game, we don't even know they stay that way except the Deprogrammer.

If the Tracker really feels Bookwyrm is the Cult Leader, then he should track him. If we really think he's playing us, we should lynch him. But to Track him or Lynch a target he says is clean to prove he's town (when that is the result we expect) is a waste of abilities that could be used on the enemy before they multiply like rabbits.

The second phase, weeding out the rest of the cultists, probably starts with re-looking at those confirmed not to be the Cult Leader as its very likely Cult will flip someone already safe. But first things first. The Cult Leader must die as soon as possible before the numbers get out of hand.

I don't think many people (except maybe those lurking more than others) are purporting to "do nothing, say nothing, discuss nothing...sit around..." way, certainly not what I've been doing or suggesting we do! Also, I'm voting for RW, if you didn't notice. Okay, you haven't decided yet, are you inclined towards anyone? Deadline is sometime tomorrow, we need to get things done today, imo.