Just wondering: What's your favorite RPG in which you get to create your party?

Specifically, I'm thinking of the following criteria, in the game's default mode:
* The game should be single-player, in which the player controls a party of adventurers.
* The party should have at least 3 characters. (Two doesn't feel like enough to really call a party.) There's no upper limit.
* Most (or all) of the party members should be created by the player. This means at least selecting name and class (or closest equivalent, which could be an initial allocation of skill points or something) for each character.

By "default mode", I'm referring to the mode that's most typically played, the one the game is designed around, and that doesn't require extra hurdles to go through. For instance, I consider the infinity engine games to be single-player by default, meaning that the Baldur's Gate games don't count. Also, games designed for the player to recruit pre-made characters, but let you pay to recruit mercenaries (like the Pathfinder CRPGs), don't count either, since that's an extra hurdle to go through.

(Examples of games that qualify: Wizardry series (except 4), Ultima 3 (but not the rest of the series), Might and Magic series, Dragon Quest 3/9, Final Fantasy 1, Icewind Dale 1/2, Avernum series (and Queen's Wish, but not Geneforge or Avadon), Stranger of Sword City (Revisited), and many others.)

So, what are your favorite RPGs of this sort?

Legend of Grimrock 2.

I was raised on Dungeon Master (Amiga), but Legend of Grimrock 2 gives the whole concept a refreshing modern overhaul.

Question: Should Geneforge not count more than Final Fantasy 1, even if said party is made of expendable, recyclable monsters?

The most input you get on your FF1 party is their names and class. Everything else is deterministic.

And which spells they learn. Remember: in FF1 (NES and probably MSX), once a character learns a spell, there's no way to get rid of it, and a character can only learn 3 spells per spell level ever.

By the way, in Geneforge: Mutagen, you can actually customize your monsters to a limited extent, spending more essense to give the monster extra (active or passive) abilities. A fyora who can breathe fire in a cone every round can come in quite handy. (It looks like this is also true in Geneforge 2: Infestation, but I haven't tried it yet.) To be honest, I like Dungeon Master's growth system and method of making potions more than what you see in modern games like Legend of Grimrock.

That also happens in Bard's Tale 1, and to a lesser extent, 3.

(Although, in the BT3 remaster, you can get tons of XP by allowing enemies to call for help until there are 99 in the group, then blasting the group with spells or breath attacks. Doesn't work as well in classic versions because of the XP per battle cap and the fact that group size is limited to 31.)

Why has nobody told me this before??!?!?!?!
I'm going to have to prioritize getting Bard's Tale next.

Hm, pretty hard one...
I mean, going on nostalgia, clearly Might and Magic VI, but was saying in another thread these days that I'm not sure I could even play it these days anymore.
Then, if I go for indies, even if it's much simpler, The Spirit Engine II.
More modern, maybe something to be said about Lords of Xulima.
Isometric, Icewind Dale 2, but there's little competition there.

Just noticing how few games that fit this I actually played...

Icewind Dale. You can use custom portraits and voices, and create all 6 party members from scratch if you want to.

The Wizardry series (6-8 especially since they give more variety in races and classes compared to 1-3 and 5)

The Bard's Tale series.

- "Pool of Radiance"
- the "Wasteland" series
- the "Might and Magic" series
- the "Phantasie" series

...are the first, that pop into my head.

I generally don't like the "creation of the party part", if it involves having to read a 100 page book about different skills and stats and how this affects that, so that you don't later regret you made a wizard with 16 strength and 0 intelligence, and a warrior with the opposite.

But if I can endure that learning part, it can become quite interesting to optimize your party, that is true.

I don't recall the party creation part in all RPGs, e.g. I don't recall how it was in e.g. Might & Magic 6-8, but if I have to name some, these were kinda ok:

Icewind Dale (probably also Icewind Dale 2), even though this partly had that "have to learn the skills and stats" stuff.
I really liked how the different skillsets of different characters really mattered in that game, like a thief was actually a very useful member, being able to scout ahead for enemies and traps so that your party would not just run into them blind, etc.

Wizardy Gold (=7, I think). I recall this was also rather deep, but was still quite interesting. I think I even made one ninja member in my party.

I kinda also liked the party creation in Dungeon Master because it was made so effortless, and part of the gameplay (you "woke up" the party members in your first dungeon). I don't recall I had to think that much about their stats, more just what their purpose in the team would be. That's more like it.

Oh right! I really detest the "roll your skill numbers" systems, where it is about luck or rerolling hundred times! Unfortunately I think Icewind Dale had that? Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it then, if it did... but was that fixed in IWD2, and you could share the points manually in it? Did it have the "reroll until you get lucky", or did it let you share the skill points at will? I don't recall for sure...

Oh, absolutely, that's just dreadful.
ToEE had that. IWD2 had manual allocation. Not sure about 1.

Yep. Most fun for warriors, where you roll hundreds of times until you get 18/00 for stength AND a decent number for other attributes so you can max or nearly max DEX and CON. You can rearrange the points, so a large total is fine for most races/characters which you can then redistribute, but you can only get the 18/XX for humans by rolling. The worst thing is, it actually makes a difference whether you have the perfect 18/00 or just 18/89, so you are pretty much doomed to roll and roll and roll....

Good times :P A perfect example of not all board game mechanics being a good idea for a video game.

no particular order:
Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous and Pathfinder: Kingmaker (endless options)
BG2 and IWD1 (self explanatory)
Final Fantasy V (the job-system is pretty unique)
Amberstar
Realms of Arkania: Star Trail (but I don't remember anymore to what extend you could customize your party)