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General discussionDRM keeps honest people, honest.(59 posts)(59 posts)
(59 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 07, 2023
I would like to add an extra bit of information/knowledge.

If we want to be 100% accurate and honest you don't legally own also most games on GOG, what you usually get is the license to utilize the software (game) at the sole discretion of its only owner (the dev/publisher).

This has always been the case (and still is), is very rare, not just in gaming, to actually own a piece of software you didn't develop yourself.

Of course the main difference between online/cloud storfronts and physical copies/downloadable executables is that, well good luck Dev/Puiblisher XYZ in getting back these copies when/if you decide to make them unavailable to a specific person/group or to everyone.

There are many reasons if Steam (and other less succesful/dead) digital stores managed to get games from devs, but the one above is the main one for why it happened so fast.
Post edited January 07, 2023 by demonbox77
Posted January 07, 2023
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m_kiewitz: OR you could at least filter according to usage of Steam DRM, which you can't, despite Steam knowing which games use Steam DRM, and which don't. Why is that?
Because they don't care about DRM-free, in fact they openly support using DRM.

But Steam DRM really isn't the problem, there are many ways around it, even legally in some cases.
Third party DRM is the real problem, that's really malware.


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m_kiewitz: They stop Windows 7 support (will surely happen this year)? Now you "upgrade" to Windows 10.
If you don't, there go your games.

They also don't give a shit about games not working.
They forced you to "upgrade" to Windows 10 and games you purchased don't work anymore? Tough luck, wait for a patch.

Meanwhile GOG tests the games they sell and I'm glad they do.
GOG doesn't support all operating systems either, and doesn't fully test every game on every platform.
And I seriously doubt Steam will deliberately break compatibility on thousands of their games, they simply mean that users of obsolete operating systems are not in position to demand anything. The worst case is that they could upgrade their client so that it's not working on older operating systems, but most Steam games probably still would.

It's good that GOG people are at least attempting to do something to test things and such, but personally I wouldn't care much about support, or lack of support in either case. The best support always comes from gamer communities.

Stores are simply ways to get access to game files.
Posted January 07, 2023
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Magmarock: If you've heard any nonsense defending DRM worse than this; and if so should we even know about it? :O
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AB2012: "y u want 2 buy GOG version? ur a pirate!" - Steam Forum response to a request that the developer consider selling their game on GOG. (It's literally the number one thing that causes me to chuckle when people complain how 'bad' the GOG forums are...)
This probably requires context. Some people will just be idiots saying that but you'd be surprised how many people in the rimworld modding scene asking for a way to download Steam mods without Steam end up admitting they have a pirated copy (rather than a GOG one).
I'm not surprised if this question for a GOG version gets asked on a game that simply isn't cracked yet it is received with skepticism, because it is likely going to be asked by quite a few potential pirates as well, of which, let's be honest here, there are probably far more than actual DRM-Free enthousiasts if GOG's 15 years is anything to go by. If it wasn't for CDP IP propping it up GOG probably wouldn't even exist anymore.
Post edited January 07, 2023 by Pheace
Posted January 07, 2023
Lol. Every time a game I like has DRM, I feel to urge to pirate the fuck out of it :-D
Posted January 07, 2023
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Pheace: This probably requires context. Some people will just be idiots saying that but you'd be surprised how many people in the rimworld modding scene asking for a way to download Steam mods without Steam end up admitting they have a pirated copy (rather than a GOG one).
I'm not surprised if this question for a GOG version gets asked on a game that simply isn't cracked yet it is received with skepticism, because it is likely going to be asked by quite a few potential pirates as well, of which, let's be honest here, there are probably far more than actual DRM-Free enthousiasts if GOG's 15 years is anything to go by. If it wasn't for CDP IP propping it up GOG probably wouldn't even exist anymore.
If you request help for a game and it isn't in your Steam library, you need to buy a legit copy. Of course, this has toned down as the default response since Epic has become more popular, but I've still encountered it, and Have been asked to post a copy of my receipt to prove I actually bought a game here. and stop the mindless pirate accusations.
Posted January 07, 2023
Have there been any studies done on how much DRM has cost in terms of lost sales?

The number of games I bought dropped off a cliff once Steam started to gain traction, and I reckon I've saved several grand over the past could of decades just on the games. Even with consoles, I stopped buying games as they started moving to on-line shops and stopped selling them on physical media. I felt pretty vindicated when the Wii Shop shut down and people lost access to everything they'd bought on that platform.

It's also reduced my spending on computers in general - I used to constantly upgrade my rig, but without the need for a high powered machine I haven't felt the need to upgrade for a long time now.

GOG is pretty much the only place I buy any games these days, even the Humble Bundle is out since they stopped selling humble DRM-free bundles and mostly became a reseller for Steam. If it isn't on GOG I don't buy it - I refuse to pay for something that can be taken away from me at will.

But even GOG hasn't seen many purchases from me of late; They seem to be bringing in loads of anime visual novel junk, but still no sign of Jets and Guns 2, which I've been pestering them for ages, and stuff I would get which would be a good fit for here, like the new Nexus - Unknown Space game, and the new Shadows over Loathing game, are nowhere to be seen.

I'd gladly throw more money at GOG but I can't buy stuff they don't have, and good games from small indie studios should be their bread and butter!
Posted January 07, 2023
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Cyker: They seem to be bringing in loads of anime visual novel junk.
XD
My thoughts exactly. Off topic I know but I've been unhappy with the amount smut and non games on the store lately.
Posted January 07, 2023
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PixelBoy: But Steam DRM really isn't the problem, there are many ways around it, even legally in some cases.
Third party DRM is the real problem
There is no legal way to remove DRM.
And no, all DRM is the real problem, especially online DRM especially including Steam DRM.

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PixelBoy: GOG doesn't support all operating systems either, and doesn't fully test every game on every platform.
What do you mean, all operating systems?
They literally tell you on which OS they tested the game on.
Sometimes that may start with Windows 7, sometimes it includes Windows XP.
When the game was released ages ago, chances are very high that the game works in Windows 2000 and XP.
And my problem isn't new games added to the store, it's existing games that I already purchased.

Regardless, when you buy it, you can keep on using it on Windows XP, BECAUSE there is no online DRM involved.
You do not rely on some shitty online DRM client, that is required to play the game.

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PixelBoy: And I seriously doubt Steam will deliberately break compatibility on thousands of their games
They intentionally lock older Windows versions out, and they know that all sorts of games do not work on Windows 10. This shows that they do not give a fuck.

It's THEIR fault to enforce a shitty online DRM client.
It's THEIR fault to lock older Windows versions out.
It's THEIR fault to embed a shitty 3rd party web browser inside their online DRM client. That's even a security risk.
None of that would be needed.

They COULD create an online DRM client without the shitty 3rd party web browser, which would work on older Windows versions forever, but they CHOOSE not to do that, because Valve does not give a fuck about customers.
And rightfully so, because their customers act like cattle.

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PixelBoy: they simply mean that users of obsolete operating systems are not in position to demand anything
haha, now that's rich.
If they forced every developer to keep their games working on non-obsolete operating systems, it would still be shit, but they don't even do that.
They don't give a fuck when developers/publishers remove content that you purchased either, which should be illegal.

So you BUY a game.
And they lock you out of your Operating System. Their online DRM does that.
And the game you purchased, and which worked, stops working, meanwhile a physical copy on physical media would not do that.
Even if you so called upgraded to a non-obsolete operating system, the game would still not work.
But YOU are now to blame, not the shitty DRM corporation who created that situation in the first place with their shitty online DRM.

You are insane, really.
Just because you don't care when the games you purchased at some point stop working, doesn't mean that no one else cares. But what's worse is that you blame the customer, instead of the shitty DRM ridden store.
Again: this situation can not by definition happen with games purchased on GOG.

AND IF VALVE ACTUALLY CARED, IT ALSO WOULD NOT HAPPEN REGARDING STEAM EITHER.
They are rich as fuck, they are literally swimming in money that they got for doing fuck all. But they do not give a fuck.

I'm really not surprised with the current state of PC gaming, when there are so many people with the opinions that you have.

I mean imagine this on consoles.
You buy digital games on Switch.
Now Nintendo stops supporting Switch.
And bamn all digitally purchased games on Switch stop working.
And you are forced to buy the new "Switch 2" and 10 or 20% of the games do not work, another 20% have issues.
But worst yet, tons of Switch users defend the corporation doing that shit.
And the Switch would be digital only on top of that, with no game ownership.
BUT WAIT, it would have a digital market place, not for selling/buying used games, no. That would be the digital market place to sell and buy digital trading cards and other junk. And Nintendo gets 30% on everything.
And they would also push gambling and loot boxes onto children.
Holy fuck.
And that's PC gaming in a nutshell.
Worst yet: tons of Steam users are fully against stores like GOG, which is insanity.

And then Switch 2 users tell the few users that do complain about all that nonsense that they should "stop using obsolete gaming devices". I even play on Gamecube, Wii, NES, SNES and other totally obsolete gaming devices, thank you very much. And I will continue doing so.
For example Is there a legal way to play Kickle Cubicle (NES) anywhere except NES via physical cart? I don't think so.
Post edited January 07, 2023 by m_kiewitz
Posted January 07, 2023
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Cyker: Have there been any studies done on how much DRM has cost in terms of lost sales?
It's impossible to calculate that.

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Cyker: Even with consoles, I stopped buying games as they started moving to on-line shops and stopped selling them on physical media. I felt pretty vindicated when the Wii Shop shut down and people lost access to everything they'd bought on that platform.
That's not entirely true. Redownloads are still possible. You simply can't purchase games on Wii Shop anymore, which of course is a major shame.
But of course Nintendo announced that they will shut down redownloads at "some point in the future".

Someone else already shut down redownloads. That's Sony with their digital comics store on PSP. You weren't refunded. And you can't redownload. It's simply gone. Poof. Of course at least it still works on the PSP you downloaded it too, which means it's better than what Steam provides.

Still I agree. I avoid buying anything digital except now here on GOG, *OR* on a console (fuck Steam) when the price is literally 1 buck. There may be some very rare exceptions, but I normally stick to that.

I even avoid physical games on Switch, which are only pseudo-physical, where half of the game or even a full game is a download. I consider that a literal scam. Stuff like the BioShock collection.

What you can see however is that games like Final Fantasy X / X-2, where in the western world only FF X is on cart for Switch, that release is dirt cheap nowadays.
Now let's compare that with the Japanese release, where both games are on cart. And wow, the price in Japan is still around the release price, which shows that people actually do not care about the western pseudo-physical release, but do care about the actual physical release in Japan.

What I really don't get is why are these corporations, Nintendo isn't some tiny company, not forced to keep the stores up?
Yada yada payment providers excuse doesn't cut it, because on Wii U + 3DS they already blocked credit card usage, and you fill up your account using a website.
They can easily connect even the Wii Shop to that and bamn, they could allow purchases again using credits stored under the accounts, and wouldn't have to take care about payment transactions.

Of course it's obvious why they even shut down 3DS + Wii U stores this year.
It's to push everyone onto the latest shit.
AND on top of that into subscriptions.

On 3DS, Wii and Wii U you were able to actually purchase old games, this was called Virtual Console, and it was awesome. On Wii it was even possible to buy all sorts of C64 games. I also purchased some rare Japanese games on the Japanese Wii Shop right before closure.

On Switch you can't do that anymore. Instead you rent it, you rent old games, that you do not even choose yourself for a yearly fee. You do not select which ones are added. They do not even have to add any. They can shut that service down at any time and you will have nothing at all. They don't want to support it anymore on Switch? Well there go your Virtual Console games.
That's on the same level as Steam is.

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Cyker: I'd gladly throw more money at GOG but I can't buy stuff they don't have, and good games from small indie studios should be their bread and butter!
What's a shame is that quite a few were delisted.
For example the Duke Nukem collection. If I would have known that, I would have purchased it back then :/
btw. so much for digital future. It's even more horse shit. At least I can buy old physical releases on ebay. I can't buy delisted digital games.

I don't even get it. Why are these classics not ported? Not even sold in their original form?
Other classics like Crystal Caves got that treatment, but Duke Nukem is just gone. What's the point of that?
Duke Nukem 3D is on Switch, digital only, but on Switch. But 2D Duke Nukem is gone.
Post edited January 07, 2023 by m_kiewitz
Posted January 08, 2023
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Cyker: Have there been any studies done on how much DRM has cost in terms of lost sales?
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m_kiewitz: It's impossible to calculate that.

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Cyker: Even with consoles, I stopped buying games as they started moving to on-line shops and stopped selling them on physical media. I felt pretty vindicated when the Wii Shop shut down and people lost access to everything they'd bought on that platform.
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m_kiewitz: That's not entirely true. Redownloads are still possible. You simply can't purchase games on Wii Shop anymore, which of course is a major shame.
But of course Nintendo announced that they will shut down redownloads at "some point in the future".

Someone else already shut down redownloads. That's Sony with their digital comics store on PSP. You weren't refunded. And you can't redownload. It's simply gone. Poof. Of course at least it still works on the PSP you downloaded it too, which means it's better than what Steam provides.

Still I agree. I avoid buying anything digital except now here on GOG, *OR* on a console (fuck Steam) when the price is literally 1 buck. There may be some very rare exceptions, but I normally stick to that.

I even avoid physical games on Switch, which are only pseudo-physical, where half of the game or even a full game is a download. I consider that a literal scam. Stuff like the BioShock collection.

What you can see however is that games like Final Fantasy X / X-2, where in the western world only FF X is on cart for Switch, that release is dirt cheap nowadays.
Now let's compare that with the Japanese release, where both games are on cart. And wow, the price in Japan is still around the release price, which shows that people actually do not care about the western pseudo-physical release, but do care about the actual physical release in Japan.

What I really don't get is why are these corporations, Nintendo isn't some tiny company, not forced to keep the stores up?
Yada yada payment providers excuse doesn't cut it, because on Wii U + 3DS they already blocked credit card usage, and you fill up your account using a website.
They can easily connect even the Wii Shop to that and bamn, they could allow purchases again using credits stored under the accounts, and wouldn't have to take care about payment transactions.

Of course it's obvious why they even shut down 3DS + Wii U stores this year.
It's to push everyone onto the latest shit.
AND on top of that into subscriptions.

On 3DS, Wii and Wii U you were able to actually purchase old games, this was called Virtual Console, and it was awesome. On Wii it was even possible to buy all sorts of C64 games. I also purchased some rare Japanese games on the Japanese Wii Shop right before closure.

On Switch you can't do that anymore. Instead you rent it, you rent old games, that you do not even choose yourself for a yearly fee. You do not select which ones are added. They do not even have to add any. They can shut that service down at any time and you will have nothing at all. They don't want to support it anymore on Switch? Well there go your Virtual Console games.
That's on the same level as Steam is.

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Cyker: I'd gladly throw more money at GOG but I can't buy stuff they don't have, and good games from small indie studios should be their bread and butter!
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m_kiewitz: What's a shame is that quite a few were delisted.
For example the Duke Nukem collection. If I would have known that, I would have purchased it back then :/
btw. so much for digital future. It's even more horse shit. At least I can buy old physical releases on ebay. I can't buy delisted digital games.

I don't even get it. Why are these classics not ported? Not even sold in their original form?
Other classics like Crystal Caves got that treatment, but Duke Nukem is just gone. What's the point of that?
Duke Nukem 3D is on Switch, digital only, but on Switch. But 2D Duke Nukem is gone.
Hi m_kiewitz

open source port duke nukem available here:-

https://www.eduke32.com/

[modded]
Post edited January 12, 2023 by sysia_GOG
Posted January 08, 2023
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PixelBoy: But Steam DRM really isn't the problem, there are many ways around it, even legally in some cases.
Third party DRM is the real problem
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m_kiewitz: There is no legal way to remove DRM.
And no, all DRM is the real problem, especially online DRM especially including Steam DRM.
There is nothing illegal about steam_appid.txt method, and I doubt replacing steam_api.dll would be illegal either.

And yes, both methods actually get rid of some Steam client dependencies in few seconds.
Third party DRM that requires real hacking is the real problem.


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m_kiewitz: And they lock you out of your Operating System. Their online DRM does that.
And the game you purchased, and which worked, stops working, meanwhile a physical copy on physical media would not do that.
Make a copy of your downloaded game, store it on a removable disc or drive if you like, and nothing will ever change that.

Steam is powerful, but they don't have supernatural powers that can retroactively overwrite your own storage media.


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m_kiewitz: You are insane, really.
Just because you don't care when the games you purchased at some point stop working, doesn't mean that no one else cares. But what's worse is that you blame the customer, instead of the shitty DRM ridden store.
Again: this situation can not by definition happen with games purchased on GOG.
It's nice that we can have these discussions in a civilised manner without resorting to any insults.

But anyway, you are obviously confusing two completely different things.
DRM is DRM.
Client software auto-updating things is a different issue.

Both questions are easy to solve.
Most Steam games are DRM-free.
Most Steam games with light DRM can be made DRM-free within seconds.
Once you have the game in a state that you want it, store it on some media which Steam client can't access, and you will have a working DRM-free game for the rest of your life.

Obviously it's better to buy from GOG, as it's not only a purchase but also a statement to support DRM-free distribution model.
Posted January 08, 2023
That's just splitting hairs; What it comes down to is this:

When the platform you've purchased the software from goes away, will you still be able to install and use the software you have purchased?
Posted January 08, 2023
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paladin181: If you request help for a game and it isn't in your Steam library, you need to buy a legit copy. Of course, this has toned down as the default response since Epic has become more popular, but I've still encountered it, and Have been asked to post a copy of my receipt to prove I actually bought a game here. and stop the mindless pirate accusations.
Like I said, I'm sure there's plenty of people do mindless accusations, which is just dumb, but sadly they're going to be right plenty of times as well.
Post edited January 08, 2023 by Pheace
Posted January 08, 2023
"DRM keeps honest people honest"

Well, there probably are some % of consumers in the public who, in the absence of some sort of DRM, would just buy one copy of a game and make duplicates to pass out to friends or something. And there is probably some % of those same people who would be dissuaded from doing that if there is some sort of DRM mechanism that makes it a bit harder for them to do so.

Obviously, this depends on the price of the game. The % of people who would bother making duplicates of a $5 game to pass out to friends is probably much lower than the % of people who would bother making duplicates of a $60 game.

Fundamentally, I don't really care if companies devise ways to make it a little bit harder for game buyers to do things like that as long as the DRM scheme they come up with doesn't cause problems for my own use of the games I buy and as long as the DRM scheme isn't too intrusive.

Of course, there are some % of people who will still find ways to pirate anyway regardless of what DRM scheme is used... but it stands to reason that if it becomes easier and less risky to pirate games, more people will pirate games.

Thus, there seems to be some truth in the statement "DRM keeps honest people honest."
Post edited January 08, 2023 by temps
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Community
General discussionDRM keeps honest people, honest.(59 posts)(59 posts)
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