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General discussionDRM Free on Steam vs. GOG: Poll(177 posts)(177 posts)
(177 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted September 10, 2021
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psychozof: It's only a few hundred games https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_DRM-Free_Games_on_Steam
"This page was last edited on 7 September 2021, at 19:16.!"

Gog`s score!

What would be Steam's response? :D
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mrkgnao: The response would be utterly simple: that list is wrong!

The list is absolutely meaningless. It is ridiculously lacking and clearly not well maintained. Here is a list with thousands of DRM-free games on Steam and it too is sorely incomplete: https://steam.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games.

If you don't believe me: Read what the list you quote states about itself:
"DISCLAIMER: Currently this list isn't even remotely a complete listing of DRM-free games on Steam!"
I've not interest in debating the logics of using a wiki to determine drm free status with hardline goggers but always willing to help you find more to play.

Dunno how you're finding the ones that are client free capable but maybe poke at
https://steamdb.info/instantsearch/?refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B0%5D=-Steam%20Achievements&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B1%5D=-In-App%20Purchases&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B2%5D=-Steam%20Workshop&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B3%5D=-Stats&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B4%5D=-Game%20demo&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B5%5D=-Cloud%20Gaming

There's no hard & fast 'steam not needed' tag of course... but a combo of tags might help narrow it down a lot. That one I posted I tried to filter out the most popular 'online connection needed' features with the idea that games that don't use them won't need Steam.

----Edit----

Also obviously: https://steamdb.info/tech/Emulator/DOSBOX/
Post edited September 10, 2021 by JunglePredator
Posted September 10, 2021
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mrkgnao: (...)
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psychozof: Thank you! I am always glad to see facts, so far there are about 2500 games : "Launcher-free Games
The games on this list do not have any DRM once they are installed which means that they do not require the Steam client to be played." They are missing offline installers but can be installed via SteamCMD... and this is... a command-line version of the Steam client.... so... it's like a choice between Galaxy 1.0 and 2.0 still a client.
I`m sorry but I want (sounds boring now) client-free offline installers available through any web browser, I am not sure what everyone else wants. I know only what I want. (and that is not too often)

When you saying you have been playing games on Steam without a client using a command-line version of the Steam client, I feel like someone has tricked you by using your emotions against you.
There was a time I thought you are a sexy anime girl... and I still like that thought. ^ I can`t argue with you :D
Calling SteamCMD a client, is like calling wget or gogrepo or GOG downloader a client.

If you are only willing to download games via a web browser and anything else is a client, then fine. But that's not my definition of a client.

I myself don't download GOG games via the web browser. I use gogrepo. So I guess by your definition I am also using a client on GOG.
Posted September 10, 2021
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mrkgnao: I use gogrepo. So I guess by your definition I am also using a client on GOG.
You are great in helping me to understand this. (like few things before)
Is there any other working external downloader for Steam(let's put the capital letter, they got Plants vs Zombies) ,
apart from the visual or command-line version of the Steam client ?
Posted September 10, 2021
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JunglePredator: Dunno how you're finding the ones that are client free capable but maybe poke at
https://steamdb.info/instantsearch/?refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B0%5D=-Steam%20Achievements&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B1%5D=-In-App%20Purchases&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B2%5D=-Steam%20Workshop&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B3%5D=-Stats&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B4%5D=-Game%20demo&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B5%5D=-Cloud%20Gaming
Thank you so much! I'm new to steam and steamdb, and still learning the ropes.

Bookmarked.

One thing that has been troubling me: Do you know of any way to buy or install free steam games without the client? That's the one thing that still baffles me, as steam seems to prevent that.
Post edited September 10, 2021 by mrkgnao
Posted September 10, 2021
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JunglePredator: Dunno how you're finding the ones that are client free capable but maybe poke at
https://steamdb.info/instantsearch/?refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B0%5D=-Steam%20Achievements&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B1%5D=-In-App%20Purchases&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B2%5D=-Steam%20Workshop&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B3%5D=-Stats&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B4%5D=-Game%20demo&refinementList%5Bcategories%5D%5B5%5D=-Cloud%20Gaming
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mrkgnao: Thank you so much! I'm new to steam and steamdb, and still learning the ropes.

Bookmarked.

One thing that has been troubling me: Do you know of any way to buy or install free steam games without the client? That's the one thing that still baffles me, as steam seems to prevent that.
Depends if it's free or free to play I think... give me a minute to poke at SteamCMD... it *should* list them as belonging to everyone so just listing all apps when not logged in but maybe there's a trick.


----Edit----

Well... seems you need to know the appids from the web pages like Alien Swarm: 630
No way to list them from SteamCMD in bulk that I see; but SteamDB can probably fetch a list.
Then it's app_license_request 630
And from there it should be normal from t here on in.
Confirmed it with Planetside 2 which my account wasn't marked as owning & it worked fine.
Post edited September 10, 2021 by JunglePredator
Posted September 10, 2021
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mrkgnao: Thank you so much! I'm new to steam and steamdb, and still learning the ropes.

Bookmarked.

One thing that has been troubling me: Do you know of any way to buy or install free steam games without the client? That's the one thing that still baffles me, as steam seems to prevent that.
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JunglePredator: Depends if it's free or free to play I think... give me a minute to poke at SteamCMD... it *should* list them as belonging to everyone so just listing all apps when not logged in but maybe there's a trick.
Thank you. Here is one that is "Free":
https://store.steampowered.com/app/698780/Doki_Doki_Literature_Club
Post edited September 10, 2021 by mrkgnao
Posted September 10, 2021
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timppu: The client itself is totally irrelevant to the definition of DRM. It is what that client is requiring you to do that defines whether it is DRM or not.
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Timboli: I can't totally agree with this, though I understand what you are saying.

The Steam Client for instance, is a control mechanism, and that relates to management, which is what DRM is all about.
I agree it can be that (depending on the game and how it is integrated with running the game), but I think that is exactly what I was referring to with "what the client is requiring you to do".

The client itself is not DRM, but it can be used to enable and enforce DRM. If the Steam client is needed only for downloading (and the first initial install) the game, and after that you can keep playing that game on a totally separate PC without requiring you to log into Steam services even once, then the Steam client is not enforcing DRM (ie. the game itself is DRM-free).

If, however, the game requires you to log into the Steam services (using the Steam client) before you can play the game on that separate PC, then Steam is used for enforcing DRM, and the game is not DRM-free.

A separate client is not needed for DRM at all. For instance the GOG version of DEFCON has, in my opinion, DRM in its multiplayer, because if you go play online or head to head (multiplayer) with the game, the game apparently checks the multiplayer key, and if it finds the other player or anyone else online is using the same key, it refuses to allow that user to play multiplayer.

To me that is another clear example of how the discussion about clients, whether the game requires one or whether it is a proprietary client or a web browser client, is totally irrelevant to the DRM discussion. The presence of DRM is not directly related to the existence or form of the client, even if in many cases the client is used for enforcing DRM.

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Timboli: The Steam Client does much more than just download, it also does a mandatory install, and is then used to execute the game or set a flag that allows offline play. It also deals with online credentials, especially for multiplayer.
Yes, the Steam client can be used also for enforcing DRM, but it depends on the game whether it will be used for that, or not. The game dictates that, not the client.
Posted September 10, 2021
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mrkgnao: I use gogrepo. So I guess by your definition I am also using a client on GOG.
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psychozof: You are great in helping me to understand this. (like few things before)
Is there any other working external downloader for Steam(let's put the capital letter, they got Plants vs Zombies) ,
apart from the visual or command-line version of the Steam client ?
Possibly, I didn't look for one. However, according to your definition, if I understand it correctly, none can exist, because any external downloader that is not a web browser is a client.
Posted September 10, 2021
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TomNuke: There's countless games on Steam that are DRM-free and have zero dependancy to the client once downloaded. The exact same way a game on GOG has no dependancy to Galaxy or the website once downloaded.
The most important difference to me is that, unlike Steam or EGS, GOG officially supports their games as DRM-free products where you are supposed to be able to run (and even install) the games without the use of the client.

So yeah many Steam and EGS games may well be DRM-free... but if you have some issues running them without the client (e.g. those EGS games where you can't save the game without being logged into the client, or those Steam games where the base game is DRM-free but the DLC requires being logged into the client), or DRM is later added to the game (has happened)... you are on your own, and you can't complain to their support.

Since I care for my games be DRM-free, GOG's official stance on DRM matters a lot to my buying decision. At least i don't have to specifically google for information whether the game I want to buy is DRM-free or not, or try to test it myself for others, like people constantly do with Steam and EGS.
Posted September 10, 2021
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JunglePredator: Depends if it's free or free to play I think... give me a minute to poke at SteamCMD... it *should* list them as belonging to everyone so just listing all apps when not logged in but maybe there's a trick.
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mrkgnao: Thank you. Here is one that is "Free":
https://store.steampowered.com/app/698780/Doki_Doki_Literature_Club
See edit above; worked fine with Doki too.

----Edit----

Oh... I will be adding the fact that doki club is now in my library to your bill btw.

----Further Edit----

And if you're into VNs... anything made by renpy is client free too I think (since renpy itself is freeware): https://steamdb.info/tech/Engine/RenPy/
I only have one installed to test with right now & it was fine... but maybe don't quote me just in case.
Attachments:
steamcmd_-_free_.jpg (246 Kb)
Post edited September 10, 2021 by JunglePredator
Posted September 10, 2021
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Time4Tea: I agree with you that the Steam client is not a form of DRM, if it not required to play certain games. Those games don't have DRM; however, I would not consider them fully DRM-free either without an offline installer. To me, an offline installer is a mandatory component of a DRM-free game. Without it, those games may not be DRMed, but they are not truly DRM-free either - they are effectively in a zombie-like limbo status in between.
I don't know really. I like GOG's current offline installers overall... but if GOG offered the games instead as portable zip or 7-zip files that you just download and decompress to your PC and then play... I think I would actually prefer those, to the current installers. Some of the Humble Store DRM-free games are just like that, mere zip files that you decompress and run the executable inside to play the game. Simple and fast.

I guess both have their advantages and drawbacks.
Installers:
- can contain needed dependencies for the game, and install them for you if needed. Then again these could be offered with the zip files as well, and it would check those when you run the game the first time, or there is a separate script inside that does that for you...
- if the game needs some registry entries or such, the installer can put them in place.
- the installers puts all Start menu and desktop icons in place automatically, also for the uninstaller that removes those registry entries etc.

A portable zip "installer"
- probably takes much less space.
- faster to "install" than with current GOG installers which first decompress everything in a temp directory, and then "stream" everything from that temp directory to the actual installation directory. With the zip file, you just decompress it wherever you want.
- more future- and foolproof.
- easier to check that your vast local collection of zip files is still ok and not corrupted, by just running e.g. an integrity check on all of them with the 7-zip client or such. Checking the integrity of all your installers is trickier, either you need to have correct md5 checksums for all of them, or you need to check them one by one.

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Time4Tea: Likewise, I'll be happy to do without those 'DRM-free' Steam games, thank you very much.
To me the main two issues with Steam and EGS DRM-free games are, compared to GOG games:

1. They are not officially DRM-free, so I am on my own if the game has issues when I try to run it without logging into their services with their client. Also finding out whether a game is DRM-free is more work, have to rely on other people's research whether a game is DRM-free or not.

2. They don't have gogrepo. GOG does (unofficially). I can download and archive all my GOG game installers pretty effortlessly (it just takes time, waiting for everything to download), while on Steam and EGS I'd have to do it one by one, using millions of clicks.

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mrkgnao: ...but once I learned that you don't need the steam client at all to buy/download/install/play games on steam ...
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russellskanne: Wait, what!? Since when and how?
He means:

1. Some Steam games. Not all.

2. It is unofficial, so if you have issues running your Steam game without logging into Steam services with the client, you are on your own.

But if there is some Steam-only game that you really want and you know it is fully DRM-free, then yeah I guess one could just as well buy it there, and then back it up ASAP just in case it ceases to be DRM-free at some point (because, no such promises were ever made by Valve).
Post edited September 10, 2021 by timppu
Posted September 10, 2021
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mrkgnao: Thank you. Here is one that is "Free":
https://store.steampowered.com/app/698780/Doki_Doki_Literature_Club
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JunglePredator: See edit above; worked fine with Doki too.

----Edit----

Oh... I will be adding the fact that doki club is now in my library to your bill btw.

----Further Edit----

And if you're into VNs... anything made by renpy is client free too I think (since renpy itself is freeware): https://steamdb.info/tech/Engine/RenPy/
I only have one installed to test with right now & it was fine... but maybe don't quote me just in case.
Awesome! Thank you! Worked flawlessly!

Also, regarding DDLC now being in your library --- as you probably know, steam has one other great feature missing from GOG --- you can actually delete games from your library!
Post edited September 10, 2021 by mrkgnao
Posted September 10, 2021
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JunglePredator: See edit above; worked fine with Doki too.

----Edit----

Oh... I will be adding the fact that doki club is now in my library to your bill btw.

----Further Edit----

And if you're into VNs... anything made by renpy is client free too I think (since renpy itself is freeware): https://steamdb.info/tech/Engine/RenPy/
I only have one installed to test with right now & it was fine... but maybe don't quote me just in case.
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mrkgnao: Awesome! Thank you! Worked flawlessly!

Also, regarding DDLC now being in your library --- as you probably know, steam has one other great feature missing from GOG --- you can actually delete games from your library!
You're not slipping away from the bill that easy. -_-
Posted September 10, 2021
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mrkgnao: Awesome! Thank you! Worked flawlessly!

Also, regarding DDLC now being in your library --- as you probably know, steam has one other great feature missing from GOG --- you can actually delete games from your library!
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JunglePredator: You're not slipping away from the bill that easy. -_-
Fair Enough! Send me the bill!

I hope it's as nice as the bill sent by the rabbit in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.
Post edited September 10, 2021 by mrkgnao
Posted September 10, 2021
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mrkgnao: Possibly, I didn't look for one. However, according to your definition, if I understand it correctly, none can exist, because any external downloader that is not a web browser is a client.
You are utterly right, and not just a browser... a free browser preferably, anywhere I like.
Where these games are Steam-free DRM-free based on this too.
I like Gog-free games too and so far I could download each through the browser.

I am on Steam now trying to download PvsZ and...I have logged in... and I can`t find my games...ship, that is an old account...again... there it is... Play Now doesn`t work as the client or game isn`t installed... SteamCMD sounds noninvasive let`s try... (I tried download manager for Gog a few times)
following instruction
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/SteamCMD#Windows
installation is harder than a standard client.... installed...
need to learn commands
see no differences, installing steam visual client...
heeey I got 1.16 to spend lol

online
20,695,402
playing now
5,397,687
come on Galaxy, show your stats :D we are trying with the biggest one out there :O
I am so proud! :D

Having both Steam clients now rotfl and can see my 7 games
Still no option to download the game, just to install.... can`t select my own folder...
local files, uninstalling both clients...
trying to start the game...."unable to load steam dll"
dang, Plants vs Zombies isn`t free luncher
dang, that game cannot be steam_appid.txt too

✨Thank you for helping with forging the definition of free dreamed game
1. No client necessary to download the installer
2. Offline installer available through web browser HTTP(s)
3. Option to download the game before installing it
4. Ability to play games after uninstalling the client
5. Ability to copy games installers to disk and travel to places where there is no internet to install games from file
6. Installers should recognize windows versions or be compatible with all versions at once
7. Licence of the game must be life user licence despite the company situation
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionDRM Free on Steam vs. GOG: Poll(177 posts)(177 posts)
(177 posts)