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^ home
he goes home

just because he saved everything doesnt mean he can find home quite yet
its still "lost"

( i dont want to spoilerise things for jacobmarner )

and i will adress the rest of rampancy's post to me uhh tomorrow
Speaking of TV marathons. I haven't seen any Gravity Falls since chapter 4 of the 2nd season.

I have a large backlog.
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snowkatt: ^ home
he goes home
Yeah, yeah...but he's still effectively won.

One of the most memorable moments I have of Doctor Who was Eccleston at the end of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances.

"Everybody lives, Rose! Just this once, everybody lives!"

And that really meant something, it really carried a lot of weight, especially after later episodes and seasons, because not everyone lives. Not everyone gets the happy ending of The Doctor and his Companion. Despite The Doctor's best intentions and best efforts someone (or a lot of someones) always end up getting screwed over in the end.

But now, if feels like none of that seems to matter anymore. He's beaten the Kobayashi Maru (to mix-up my references a little). It's kind of like what would have happened at the end of Star Trek II if Spock actually didn't die.
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rampancy: Yeah, yeah...but he's still effectively won.

One of the most memorable moments I have of Doctor Who was Eccleston at the end of The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances.

"Everybody lives, Rose! Just this once, everybody lives!"

And that really meant something, it really carried a lot of weight, especially after later episodes and seasons, because not everyone lives. Not everyone gets the happy ending of The Doctor and his Companion. Despite The Doctor's best intentions and best efforts someone (or a lot of someones) always end up getting screwed over in the end.

But now, if feels like none of that seems to matter anymore. He's beaten the Kobayashi Maru (to mix-up my references a little). It's kind of like what would have happened at the end of Star Trek II if Spock actually didn't die.
we got star trek 3 out of star trek 2

...think about that for a second

and to be honest the end of eccels cake's run is 10 years ago
nu who has been around for a decade

even the doctor deserves a happy ending once in a while
its not as if he was so happy when gallifrey was still around
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rampancy: Even the infamous episode "Love and Monsters"? (Which I, for the record, thought was kinda cute.) :P
"Love and monsters" is one of the episodes of which I had seen just a few scenes, before I tried to truly watch the series. So, it contributed to my anti-Who prejudice.

But seeing it in its entirety, and in context (within the series' established tone and characters and all), well, yeah, I love that episode just as much as the others ! It's a cool episode as far as I'm concerned.

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rampancy: Funnily enough, I actually disliked them for the same reasons that you liked Moffat's writing -- an insanely convoluted plot relying on Deus Ex Machinas.
Let's split both. I adore overly convoluted plots (you know, the PK Dick's Doctor Futurity style). And I dislike Deus Ex Machinae. But I think that Deus Ex Machinae are a bit obligatory in Doctor Who (you cannot build up to terrible situation AND resolve them in under one hour without cheap childish tricks), and I rarely take the plots seriously enough to care. So, I'm used to that sort of flaws.

My position being : Deus ex Machina = flaw. Convoluted stories = qualities.

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rampancy: I've never fully gotten where all of the rage has come from over this. We had plenty of heavy-handed socio-political messages in SF/F shows such as Star Trek (across TOS, TNG and DS9 to name a few), as well as Babylon 5 and Stargate: SG1.
It's the way it's done. Having glimpses of a future where homosexuality is not stigatzed at all is fine (heck, the kittens couple with the Father Ted guy in "Deadlock" was fantastic). But some stuff are just too in-your-face. Like, that "Flatline" episode, about street art being cool and people who don't respect street art being absolute bigotted racist moron with a lack of imagination that even shortcuts psychic papers... I mean street art is cool (okay, there's street art and street art but whatever), and indeed cannot be reduced to vandalism, but still, the characters there were just huge caricatures. I do not like it when fiction "illustrates" a thesis through strawmen characters, pointing and begging for boos at the right places. It's cheap and cheapening, it's insulting, it's unfair to humans, and I'm not sure it helps. For me, it's not much different from, say, a reagan-era vigilante fiction with evil ghetto black drug dealer rapists supported by crypto-communist laywers who all get eradicated by a white ex-vietnam hero applying righteous capital punishment throughout the streets. It's the same "see, in that fiction that my party wrote, these guys were blatant bad guys, so, there is a lesson there". I become more and more intolerant to that sort of rhetorical device, whatever the ideology. And some Dr Who episodes look too much like humanist-sided "jack chick tracts".

That being said, I've been drifting away from fiction and more into documents and essays, for that specific reason. It's too easy to make your point through an invented world crafted around your own representation of reality.

But really, this is linked to the next point :

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rampancy: I couldn't agree with you more on this. The Day of the Doctor was something I found absolutely insulting in that it basically invalidated one of the most compelling characteristics of modern Doctor Who. All of that character development over three actors and seven seasons, just gone. The Doctor was able to get his cake and eat it too.
Yes, and this have-cake-and-eat-too is sometimes at the service of an ideological message. Quite often "should we risk everything in order to uphold a kantian imperative (risk the crew to save spock) or should we soil our souls to maximise positive consequences (sacrifice spock for the crew)". It is a real philosphical problem, underlying many political, ideological polemics (although these are perverted by the subjective weight attributed to different outcomes : "should i sacrifice my comfort/symbol/landscape to potentially save a stranger life", etc). And this issue is shortcutted by the outcome decided by the writer. Because the "good answer" is defined in retrospect, through the outcome.

Like, if you don't murder that person, there's a 78% chance hat something bad will happen to these ten other people, and 22% chance that nothing bad will happen. What is the righteous response here ? Well, let's watch the end of the episode, and depending on whether the outcome turns out being the one that had most chances to be, or the one that had fewest chances to be, we'll know whose policy proponent was the good guy or the bad guy. And we'll remember the lesson for any other real life dilemma.

The lesson depending entirely on the writer's arbitrary decision. While in reality, the outcome (positive or negative) is independant from the question of whether it was the right thing to do or not.

There's a fine line between informative/educative/though-provoking, and straigztforward blatantly manipulative. And quite often, fictions such as Dr Who merrily hop above that line. It pretends to be clever or thoughtful, but actually skips the real dilemma and its actual stakes, for the sake of supporting one general stance. The recurring "keep the Doctor's hands clean by having grey characters do the dirty work, and have them chastized by the Doctor" plot device is typical of that. It doesn't really delve in the issue itself, it just kinda comforts a position without nuancing it. I see such cop outs as hypocritical ways to legitimise a moral stance without actually arguing in its favor - and when it argues, it's too often through an overly caricatural exemple. It's less intelligent than it claims to be (cause there's a lot of empty talks around such situations, within that series).
Post edited May 20, 2015 by Telika
Sorry, been away from this topic for a bit. Sometimes if I don't see a topic on the front page I perpetually miss it.

As to the Rani, I saw the "The Mark of the Rani" first and I just couldn't get over how stupid the plot line was. I mean, yeah, the Doctor is recovering from regeneration, but the whole episode revolved around him not recognizing who the Rani was. It was a two minute comedic gag stretched to the entire episode. To me, it was a sign the series started giving up on real meaning and started relying on sight gags.

As to the modern series. Isn't it great to have at least a little budget? Compared to the old series, night and day. And the writing is rather good, especially if you compare it to the average episodes of the last 4 or 5 old series.

Personally, Tom Baker was my old Doctor and David Tennant my new Doctor. I just think both do a good job keeping things serious enough, yet still a bit quirky and light-hearted. I found Matt Smith to be a little too goofy. He was okay, but the bow-tie joke was getting rather old. The new Doctor, I don't know yet. Still feels to me he's yet to find his own rhythm, as if he hasn't quite "become" the Doctor yet. Acting the part rather than being the part.
Post edited May 20, 2015 by RWarehall
So, watched the Last Christmas. That makes three good episodes (even though the theme allowed for a very arbitrary ending, that could have happened earlier or later depending on writer caprice, and thus doesn't bring real satifyingly definitive closure). Also, it confirms that Capaldi "got it" now. Also the filming and editing was good, way better than the Mummy in Orient Express mid-season.

If the next season stays at this level, it'll be a good season. Doctor Who back on tracks.

(Also : impressively nerdish episode, with amusingly blatant inspirations.)
Post edited May 21, 2015 by Telika
Almost done with Doctor Who Confidential - thereby wrapping up 2006 (and every year before it). Did you know that the monster in "Love & Monsters" was actually a contest winner in Blue Peter? Children was supposed to design and draw a monster that would be used in the show. In this case it was the Absorbitron (or something?).

To take a break from all the behind the scenes material I started seeing the 2009 series K9. In the beginning of the first episode it is actually the original K9 that is used but it is then destroyed and regenerated it gets a new look and can fly.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1102732/

So far the K9 series is pretty lame, but since it is targeted tweens (I think) I guess I am just not the target audience. The only redeeming factors are that John Leeson is still voicing K9 and that the female hero is pretty hot (Philippa Coulthard) - she reminds me a bit of Emma Watson.

The series was quite hard to find, but I finally spotted it at Amazon Prime UK. So with a little region unlocking I signed up
and is now streaming it in very good quality.
ahh, I just realized torchwood is an anagram for doctor who! Very clever!
Post edited May 22, 2015 by jacobmarner
...wait i thought tweens were people in their twenties
but latley i have seen remarks that suggest otherwise
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snowkatt: ...wait i thought tweens were people in their twenties
but latley i have seen remarks that suggest otherwise
no no, it is people in their teens but not yet teenagers - 10-12. mix of "teen" and "between".
Post edited May 22, 2015 by jacobmarner
Just saw "Gridlock" in season 3 of new series. I really enjoyed that one!

On one hand it was a bit absurd, but on the other hand it was also fascinating. And they don't reveal what really is going on before the end. The entire idea that people being stuck on the motor way for 24 years and monsters roaming in the pollution. Just fabulous!
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snowkatt: ...wait i thought tweens were people in their twenties
but latley i have seen remarks that suggest otherwise
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jacobmarner: no no, it is people in their teens but not yet teenagers - 10-12. mix of "teen" and "between".
I've seen people in their 20's act just like them, I can understand the confusion. :)
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jacobmarner: Just saw "Gridlock" in season 3 of new series. I really enjoyed that one!
You are not alone.
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snowkatt: ...wait i thought tweens were people in their twenties
but latley i have seen remarks that suggest otherwise
You're thinking of twens, not tweens. :)

(Yes, it's probably not very efficient to have two so similar words refer to different states on the same scale, but well, that's how language develops. :) )