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General discussiondoesn't that make it DRM(91 posts)(91 posts)
(91 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 11, 2023
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g2222: Coming full circle: If games become client-dependent, which they do now on GOG, then I'd rather bet my money on the Steam platform. Fun fact: I boycotted Steam for 15 years(!); finally bought my first game (PUBG) in 2018. This summer, I already spent twice as much $$$ on their platform as I did here.
Complain about DRM, just to jump ships to Steam DRM?
Posted July 11, 2023
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StingingVelvet: GOG has had the reality of either removed multiplayer or Galaxy dependent multiplayer since it launched. It's been an expected and accepted aspect of the service since forever. The only reason this release is getting any attention in that regard is because its dumb bot match mode is called "skirmish" and people are either ignorant of what that means or using it as a way to bash GOG for their supposed DRM flirtations.
GOG is still the only store that cares a wit about DRM free and yet all most people here want to do is attack them 24/7 for every tiny questionable thing.
I'm not bashing GOG. It truly makes me sad seeing them fall victim to these "realities".
But I'm not GOG fanboy enough, either, to ignore everything that's going on.
Posted July 11, 2023
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g2222: Coming full circle: If games become client-dependent, which they do now on GOG, then I'd rather bet my money on the Steam platform. Fun fact: I boycotted Steam for 15 years(!); finally bought my first game (PUBG) in 2018. This summer, I already spent twice as much $$$ on their platform as I did here.
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Syphon72: Complain about DRM, just to jump ships to Steam DRM?
Yes, I know, it sound paradoxical. ;-)
But, for me, there is no such thing as 50%-DRM-free. If GOG can't deliver 100%, then there is no reason to stick with them. Why would I? It's the worse deal. And things aren't going to get better.
But everybody is free to choose their poison.
Posted July 11, 2023
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GOG stated officially that publishers should be allowed to implement any DRM they want, as long as it doesn't impact the single player game in a major way.

- so, multiplayer DRM is ok.. and has been for years
- DRM on cosmetics is ok
- DRM on minor single player features is OK
- only DRM on major single player features is still called not OK

But of course, GOG didn't define what 'major' means.

Realistically, GOG is ok with any DRM that doesn't lead to an outcry that is big enough to become a PR problem, like Hitman did.

GOG has long since ceased to be a DRM free store. They are DRM agnostic nowadays, with a preference for mandatory Galaxy multiplayer. They just like to use the DRM free label as PR, even though it isn't true anymore.
Posted July 11, 2023
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Syphon72: Complain about DRM, just to jump ships to Steam DRM?
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g2222: Yes, I know, it sound paradoxical. ;-)
But, for me, there is no such thing as 50%-DRM-free. If GOG can't deliver 100%, then there is no reason to stick with them. Why would I? It's the worse deal. And things aren't going to get better.
But everybody is free to choose their poison.
Buying from steam will make sure things aren't getting better.

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Lifthrasil: GOG stated officially that publishers should be allowed to implement any DRM they want, as long as it doesn't impact the single player game in a major way.

- so, multiplayer DRM is ok.. and has been for years
- DRM on cosmetics is ok
- DRM on minor single player features is OK
- only DRM on major single player features is still called not OK

But of course, GOG didn't define what 'major' means.

Realistically, GOG is ok with any DRM that doesn't lead to an outcry that is big enough to become a PR problem, like Hitman did.

GOG has long since ceased to be a DRM free store. They are DRM agnostic nowadays, with a preference for mandatory Galaxy multiplayer. They just like to use the DRM free label as PR, even though it isn't true anymore.
Where do you buy games from nowadays?
Post edited July 11, 2023 by Syphon72
Posted July 11, 2023
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Syphon72: Complain about DRM, just to jump ships to Steam DRM?
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g2222: Yes, I know, it sound paradoxical. ;-)
But, for me, there is no such thing as 50%-DRM-free. If GOG can't deliver 100%, then there is no reason to stick with them. Why would I? It's the worse deal. And things aren't going to get better.
But everybody is free to choose their poison.
I don't understand what your actual position is because it seems you changed your position from the previous comment before this (not quoted). In the previous comment, I thought you had talked about GOG potentially failing and that you would essentially place your bets on Steam, implying it is a safer choice in the long run of having access to your content. But now you take more of an approach that I relate to, in the form of wanting purely DRM-free products.

I had left PC gaming for about 15 years myself, due to my disgust at Scheme taking over the market. If the choice offered to me is "the game is DRMed. Take it or leave it" I will proudly choose "leave it". What I wonder is why you would go to the DRM monopoly store when there are other DRM-free stores. I am not allowed to link to them, but there are several stores which have completely offline 100% complete games. Why not patronize those if you are switching stores?
Posted July 11, 2023
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clarry: Funny.. they could offer DRM-free multiplayer, but they choose not to.
Hahahaha... what exactly do you expect them to do? Re-engineer games? Use their non-existant leverage to force Sega or whoever to put the work in and do it? This is a suuuuuper unrealistic expectation to the point of comedy.

Modern multiplayer is built around clients and 90% of the audience wouldn't want it any other way. GOG's options are to provide that with Galaxy (already an uphill battle because why bother with that effort considering GOG's market share) or remove the multiplayer entirely. Or just don't sell the game on GOG at all.

I know which I choose.
Posted July 11, 2023
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g2222: Yes, I know, it sound paradoxical. ;-)
But, for me, there is no such thing as 50%-DRM-free. If GOG can't deliver 100%, then there is no reason to stick with them. Why would I? It's the worse deal. And things aren't going to get better.
But everybody is free to choose their poison.
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Syphon72: Buying from steam will make sure things aren't getting better.

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Lifthrasil: GOG stated officially that publishers should be allowed to implement any DRM they want, as long as it doesn't impact the single player game in a major way.

- so, multiplayer DRM is ok.. and has been for years
- DRM on cosmetics is ok
- DRM on minor single player features is OK
- only DRM on major single player features is still called not OK

But of course, GOG didn't define what 'major' means.

Realistically, GOG is ok with any DRM that doesn't lead to an outcry that is big enough to become a PR problem, like Hitman did.

GOG has long since ceased to be a DRM free store. They are DRM agnostic nowadays, with a preference for mandatory Galaxy multiplayer. They just like to use the DRM free label as PR, even though it isn't true anymore.
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Syphon72: Where do you buy games from nowadays?
Mostly Zoom-Platform. Or directly from the dev if they offer that option. Or I back drm free games on Kickstarter. But honestly, I have such a big backlog that I hardly have to buy any new games. It will take me decades to play through what I already have.
Posted July 11, 2023
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Gamicon4: "Please note that our version of Dawn of War offers a multiplayer experience tailored specifically for our GOG GALAXY client. It requires an online connection and is not compatible with other versions of the game."

The original DoW didn't have drm; why gog why?!?
Basically what StingingVelvet said in his first post. For modern games, either GOG strips out multiplayer or they port it to Galaxy, that's just how the technical side of things works; they don't have resources or leverage to force publishers to make a whole new version of multiplayer DRM-free or to do it themselves. That's basically how it's been for ~8 years. (Unfortunately sometimes the porting doesn't even happen, like FEAR 3 co-op.)

That said, I wish the original retail version of DoW that had LAN would show up (and the version of DoW2 that had LAN, assuming that's accurate because I got conflicting info if any versions of DoW 2 ever had LAN), and I understand people who raise a fuss about DoW2 Skirmish being DRM'd (though I assume it's DRM'd on Steam too, and all GOG could do was port it as it was rather than rework it to be DRM-free).
Post edited July 12, 2023 by tfishell
Posted July 11, 2023
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g2222: Yes, I know, it sound paradoxical. ;-)
But, for me, there is no such thing as 50%-DRM-free. If GOG can't deliver 100%, then there is no reason to stick with them. Why would I? It's the worse deal. And things aren't going to get better.
But everybody is free to choose their poison.
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rjbuffchix: I had left PC gaming for about 15 years myself, due to my disgust at Scheme taking over the market. If the choice offered to me is "the game is DRMed. Take it or leave it" I will proudly choose "leave it". What I wonder is why you would go to the DRM monopoly store when there are other DRM-free stores. I am not allowed to link to them, but there are several stores which have completely offline 100% complete games. Why not patronize those if you are switching stores?
I have to agree with you 100%. Why not show support for the other DRM free stores if you don't like this one? Why jump to a store that has DRM monopoly? It's not going to suddenly one day become pro-DRM free. Plus, the store you are talking about could use more support.
Post edited July 11, 2023 by Syphon72
Posted July 11, 2023
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tfishell: That said, I wish the original retail version of DoW that had LAN would show up (and the version of DoW2 that had LAN, assuming that's accurate because I got conflicting info if any versions of DoW 2 ever had LAN), and I understand people who raise a fuss about DoW2 Skirmish being DRM'd.
I'd assume the latest updates and expansions and whatnot were so built around Steamworks they couldn't just go back to the retail exe. Who knows though.
Posted July 11, 2023
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amok: the codeword there is ownership checks, and it does not matter if it is first or third party. howeverr, dependensies that do not do ownership checks are not DRM. so what you are saying here is that DRM = DRM.
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clarry: DRM isn't just about ownership. DRM is about managing your rights, whether the product is "owned" or not. If a game is built in such a way that enables a third party to cut you off from it or otherwise disable parts of the game for you, then yes it has DRM with or without ownership checks.

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amok: what galaxy does or does not do, i do not know. in this case, does it verify ownership or does it only provide the online framework?
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clarry: Why even butt in the discussion if you have no idea? Yes, it does verify ownership.
neat, thank you for correcting me. since you know this, and I am currious, what methodology does Galaxy use to verrify ownership when it starts a multiplayer session?
Post edited July 11, 2023 by amok
Posted July 11, 2023
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Syphon72: Buying from steam will make sure things aren't getting better.

Where do you buy games from nowadays?
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Lifthrasil: Mostly Zoom-Platform. Or directly from the dev if they offer that option. Or I back drm free games on Kickstarter. But honestly, I have such a big backlog that I hardly have to buy any new games. It will take me decades to play through what I already have.
That's cool. I don't mind buying from ZOOM just wish they didn't take forever to release games. It does not help most new games, I have on GOG already. Plus, all the weird shenanigans they have been doing.
Post edited July 12, 2023 by Syphon72
Posted July 12, 2023
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tfishell: That said, I wish the original retail version of DoW that had LAN would show up (and the version of DoW2 that had LAN, assuming that's accurate because I got conflicting info if any versions of DoW 2 ever had LAN), and I understand people who raise a fuss about DoW2 Skirmish being DRM'd.
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StingingVelvet: I'd assume the latest updates and expansions and whatnot were so built around Steamworks they couldn't just go back to the retail exe. Who knows though.
Probably something like that. I was mainly thinking of the LAN versions being included as bonus items/extras.
Posted July 12, 2023
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amok: neat, thank you for correcting me. since you know this, and I am currious, what methodology does Galaxy use to verrify ownership when it starts a multiplayer session?
I haven't reverse-engineered it so I wouldn't know, but probably at some point it just makes a call to authenticate with GOG's servers which would tell if the user owns the game.

I'm just going by the public docs: "The GOG GALAXY SDK requires users to be authenticated in order to use online features such as Achievements, Multiplayer or Friends."

After authentication, two statuses are set:
SignedIn -> "Determines whether the user has a license for the game and is logged in to the GOG GALAXY client locally"
LoggedOn -> "Determines if the user has a license for the game, is logged in to the GOG GALAXY client and is connected to the GOG GALAXY Backend Services"

IAuthListener, used by the authentication calls, has a failure reason of "FAILURE_REASON_NO_LICENSE."

Start here if you want to dig in. This page also contains a matrix of what's (not) supported when the user has (no) license. https://docs.gog.com/sdk-galaxy-feats-and-states/
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clarry: Funny.. they could offer DRM-free multiplayer, but they choose not to.
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StingingVelvet: Hahahaha... what exactly do you expect them to do? Re-engineer games? Use their non-existant leverage to force Sega or whoever to put the work in and do it? This is a suuuuuper unrealistic expectation to the point of comedy.
Hahahah.. well, you know, there's thing called galaxy.dll. Written by GOG, and happily used by the games. No need to re-engineer anything at all. There is nothing preventing GOG from using this API to provide DRM-free multiplayer, but instead they decided that the multiplayer features are gated behind authentication and a license check.
Post edited July 12, 2023 by clarry
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussiondoesn't that make it DRM(91 posts)(91 posts)
(91 posts)