scientiae: We are, in our humble manner, in a search for objective truth […]
dtgreene: Even in mathematics, there isn’t really any true notion of absolute truth.
The best we can say is whether something is true given our axioms and rules of inference, or more precisely, whether something can be proven given our axioms and rules of inference. […]
I never said absolute truth. ;)
Yes, there are assumptions behind all facts. Best practice demands that we state the assumptions (first) so that we can address any shortcomings in them. (Kant also wrote about knowledge that is a product of its assumptions, which he called
analytic.)
As for your example, take the assumption that the fifth (parallel) postulate first codified by Euclid is true. It may not be true, but every time it has ever been tested it has been found to be true. So until we can find one counter example (and only one is necessary) then we can say that this is an objective truth, since the subject has no bearing on it. (The Vienna Circle would be pleased; this is fundamentally what Logical Positivism is all about.)
This is also a good time to mention David Hume, who first noted that induction (
scilicit, making a general rule from a single observed instance) is logically unsafe. But it is only by providing a falsification that we can dismiss the stated instance-as-general rule (or, at least, limit it). This is why the contribution of the late Dr Karl Popper is so important; a million examples of something does not prove it universally true, but the failure to find one example that defies the rule certainly does.
Reality is that which continues to exist even when you stop believing in it.
PK Dick
GamezRanker: Then surely you can prove it by offering solid counters to that user’s points, and not just doing the equivalent of the “I win!” game.
Mafwek: […] However there is presentation of many claims from philosophers (such as John Locke) as a definitive facts, despite those claims being metaphysical/ontological and as such always remain claims, not to mention criticized and “disapproved” by many latter philosophers. There are also some highly dubious claims about Immanuel Kant.
Which is a great excuse for you to mention those criticisms, rather than allude to them. What has been refuted?
Locke eloquently explained the real, material advantage for an individual (self-aware, self-sufficient, and rational) to join a society, with the minimum loss of personal autonomy and maximum protection of her accumulated assets, to form a commonwealth. Yes?
It is the basis of the social contract, which was a whole new concept in governance; since time immemorial the strong have ruled because they can and the weak has submitted because they must. Nobody cared what the citizens thought.
The social
contract is an agreement between the authority and the governed that spells out each member’s roles and responsibilities.
Mafwek: Now, citing NATO Handbook against a Soviet propaganda is highly dubious, Warsaw Pact and NATO countries were enemies during the Cold War, and as such were necessarily biased against each other. A) propaganda doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t true; B) propaganda doesn’t mean it isn’t at least partially true C) it is highly probable NATO handbook is/can contain Western propaganda. This is example of using ideological propaganda an actual fact.
Not really. Notice you have talked about the source of the information but neglected to address the information itself?
Rather than try to exclude the information because of some rule you just introduced (apprehended bias) —— without actually proving any bias, I note —— why not discuss the meta-analytical impact? Just because the Soviets invented a system for disinformation doesn’t mean others don’t use the same rhetorical tactics (consciously or otherwise).
I wasn’t trying to suggest that only the Soviets conducted disinformation. (That’s misinformed. :)
Analyze the toolkit. Have you not seen these tactics in use? Do you think they should be categorized differently? My aim here is to help readers spot logical traps.
NATO has a very good idea how Soviet disinformation worked, since they fought it. Saying that NATO must be biased doesn’t add anything. (As you said in the sentence prior, everybody has a bias, so if we discount everything everybody says because of bias then we won’t have much of a conversation, will we?)
A good (Cold War thaw) heuristic is to assume the proposition and try to disprove it.
Доверяй, но проверяй [
Trust, but verify]
Mafwek: Now about something which is both ideological propaganda and conspiracy theory are statements about Frankfurt School, postmodern and sabotage of core Western values. This is not something I heard outside of Right-wing conspiracy theorists, which don’t get me wrong, may actually be “true”, but not something I would use or hear in “serious” academic discussion. […]
Except this isn’t a conspiracy theory since it was their published agenda. :)
It has been in the public domain for almost a century. Are you suggesting that they are so ineffectual that the success of their own plans cannot be due to their efforts? That the successful culmination of their plans was due to accident or third-party efforts?
Notice again the reframing:
not something I would use or hear in “serious” academic discussion.
Excluding data (facts) is a very serious deed. It will skew interpretations. Because something is not widely known does not constitute a refutation.
Rather than label some information “bad” in order to prevent “harm” to those innocents who might be exposed, if something is wrong, simply refute it. If it only applies under certain circumstances, what are those limits?
The three Abrahamic faiths […].
kohlrak: To that end, I’ve often question, looking at society now, when separation of church and state was declared necessary, if it was really the church that corrupted the state, as argued, or if the state had corrupted the church. […]
Christianity has no trouble with secular power (“Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” from the synoptic gospels) and the Pope was also a secular king for much of the Middle Ages. (No conflict of interest there, then. /sarcasm)
Ideally, temporal and spiritual authority should operate perpendicular to each, so as to create separate hierarchies that can cross-check the behaviours of those within the responsibility matrix. Absolute monarchy is more efficient, but also more fragile (a single point of failure, be it moral or authoritarian). Lord Acton said power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Girard noted that Christianity, being unique in its use of scapegoat mimesis (because Jesus was innocent) has the (unintended?) consequence of devolving responsibility back to each individual of the faith. Thus liberal democracy is possible.
There exists a social dynamic process that has since been identified by Rene Girard in his (2005)
Mimetic Theory. Briefly, when a group starts to splinter, a scapegoat will help refocus the group with a common enemy.
kohlrak: The LGB Alliance suggests that said prediction didn’t age well. They’ve tried, but, as far as i’m aware, the main group has become the scapegoat. […]
That particular outcome doesn’t invalidate the theory. The political ballast obviously shifted to exclude the “main” group, whoever that is. (I’m not sure what you’re saying.)
As the French revolution progressed, the polarity of later zealots increased; those who initially sought to depose the King but not execute him (
e.g., the
Montagnards) were, in turn, determined to be “enemies of the people” and thus summarily executed for treason, even though they had been loud advocates of the removal of the crown as head of state (which is treason).
dtgreene: […] Shadowrun (SNES) has a stat called Karma which is used to boost your stats and skills (and takes the place of XP in that game). I have a strong suspicion that other Shadowrun games do this as well. (Could someone confirm? Specifically, is Karma used this way in the Sega Genesis game, the more recent PC games, or the tabletop RPG that the games are based off?)
GreatWarriox: Well Im thinking they should build the entire game around Karma, from plot to quest design to characters. Even enemies. Not just some feature.
It is true that the
Shadowrun games use Karma as a proxy for experience. After a successful mission your character will receive karma for success, and each rank in a attribute and related skill (like strength and close combat or quickness and ranged combat) requires its value in karma. So, to attain a rank of 5 in close combat, the character needs 5 in strength and must pay five karma to raise her close combat skill from a rank of four to five. (I believe the tabletop game has more complexity as well.)