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anzial: Killing nazis never gets old. You might take a break to kill some zombies instead but you always go back :D
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Timboli: Indeed, so true.

WW1 and WW2 are significant things in the history of the world. They were a reality and it is hard to get past such significance, and there are many lessons still to be learnt, and as we know History has a habit of repeating itself.

The moral of the story, is don't do what the Nazis did, else you will suffer forever and a day in infamity ... people will continue to make examples of you and make fun of you ... there is likely no end to it. And the further removed we are from that era, the more exotic it kind of becomes. As they say, truth can be stranger than fiction and thus perhaps continually entertaining.
well china looks like repeating that atm
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Timboli: Indeed, so true.

WW1 and WW2 are significant things in the history of the world. They were a reality and it is hard to get past such significance, and there are many lessons still to be learnt, and as we know History has a habit of repeating itself.

The moral of the story, is don't do what the Nazis did, else you will suffer forever and a day in infamity ... people will continue to make examples of you and make fun of you ... there is likely no end to it. And the further removed we are from that era, the more exotic it kind of becomes. As they say, truth can be stranger than fiction and thus perhaps continually entertaining.
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Orkhepaj: well china looks like repeating that atm
and with Disney supporting them
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CMOT70: Well, Nazi's are definitely socialists. Nazi...National Socialist. Right Wing socialism. The polar opposite of left wing socialism in all it's forms- the real target of the Nazis's were the Bolsheviks like you said.
Just because a political party calls itself socialist, does not mean said party is indeed socialist.
The socialist values are left, so there can not be a right wing socialism.
A good example of what im saying is the French socialist party, they call themselves socialist but their political views and actions have nothing to do with socialist values.
Definition of words and understanding of terms is very important to avoid confusion.

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CMOT70: German people were on the front line, they saw Russians lose their property, religions and ethnic identities (Cossacks fought for the Germans in WW2 for that reason)
A small group of cossacks fought for the Germans, most of them fought for the Russians.
Making statements like "Russians lost their property" is wrong. In reality, a relative small number of people lost their property, while the living standards of many people improved. Of course a right-leaning person would prefer to concentrate on the loss of property and not on the gains of the many poor. Personally i think we should look at both sides of the equation.
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CMOT70: They could see their country going the same way as Russia, all the Baltic countries and the Ukraine. In fear and desperation they voted in the Nazi party which promised to halt the rot. And they did it too, at great cost, but they did it. Many countries looking down the barrel and facing the same circumstances would have done the same as Germany.
Thats the historic equivalent of a fairy tale, that is made up to justify dark events.
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CMOT70: The crap about Jews had nothing to do with National Socialism itself. All that was simply the personal ideals and prejudices of their leader.
This statement is a conveniently twisted version of actual facts, i would assume you got such convenient information from far right publications or something similar.
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CMOT70: But hey, Josef Stalin wasn't exactly the worlds most jovial fellow either from all accounts.
Correct, Stalin was much worse than Hitler in many ways.

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CMOT70: It is quite possible to have a Nazi government today that would not persecute Jews or invade Poland- they are not built in prerequisites of the ethos- but opposing the extreme left is.
Sure i agree with that, but keep in mind that while not all nazi ideology was bad, it led to very bad things, just like the fascist ideology was not so bad, but it led to very bad things.
Historically this kind of ideologies always leads to disaster.
Thats the reason why the adepts of nazism and fascism were mostly young, mostly un-educated people, who bought into the ideology without seeing the trap they were getting into.
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CMOT70: Lastly, the Nazi's did not invent concentration camps. Those were in use long before. The British used them in south Africa fro example.
Yeah perfectly true, they didnt invent genocide either, but they became known for both.
Post edited December 24, 2020 by kaboro
It's old and stale, has become a parody of itself and has creatively worn out its welcome a long time ago.

But consider the cyclical popularity of zombies. Many people need an outlet to freely let out all of their most base, vicious impulses of violence. But most of them just don't get the same satisfaction unless they can visualize people they hate as the target of their ire, so monsters, undead or aliens don't truly cut it for them.

Nazis, on the other hand, are not only more real and visceral, society actively applauds and encourages violence against them, and you're not bound to have organizations accusing you of bigotry or dehumanization if you have a game in which you're supposed to mow through nazis. Essentially, it has become a form of socially acceptable snuff.
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Post edited December 24, 2020 by morolf
My only problem is, post-2014, it partially seems a response to Orange Cheeto Hitler getting elected or conflating nationalism/patriotism with something like white supremacy. Everyone is a "Nazi" these days. (Imagine if there was a game where you were defending your home or business from BlackLivesMatter rioters or defending farmers in South Africa, how well would that go over. :P)

Anyway the most interesting Nazi killing to me are the supernatural games that heavily feature supernatural/sci-fi occult elements. But I also really enjoyed Call of Duty 1 and 2.
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kaboro: Thats the reason why the adepts of nazism and fascism were mostly young, mostly un-educated people, who bought into the ideology without seeing the trap they were getting into.
You have some good point, but this one is simply not true.

Many of the concepts the NSDAP brought to a sad fruition had been (and still are) floating around for quite a while in the intellectual salons since the 19th century. Be it racial theories, or anti-semitism, or the national-socialist ideology - that stuff was zeitgeist, and from the 1880 on, with roots going way further into the middle ages. There's a reason otherwise great minds, artists, scientist, revered Adolf Hitler (before the Poland assault), and that's a thing I find very pretty scary.
It's always easy to point at the simple-minded people, but there's a closed and intricate intellectual system behind all that Nazi stuff - much like an RPG world filled with apocalyptic fights, and much like QAnon today, that captured even the greatest minds.
A few examples:
Henry Ford
Charles Lindbergh
Thomas Watson (and IBM)
Joe Kennedy (JFK's father)
Prescott Bush
Irenee du Pont
William Randolph Hearst

Even Walt Disney admired Hitler at first (although he became a stout enemy later, and even produced Anti-Hitler movies from his own pocket, which didn't stop the latter to adore Snow White).

I'm leaving out the MANY German intellectuals because it's hard to discern where fandom ends and flag-waving starts. And the list would be quite long either way.

And I feel like it's happening again, not the exact same way, but in principle.

@thread

The important thing is, and returning to games, while "demonizing nazis" hides hides the everyday banality of the evil that happened, backed up by intellectuals with fancy ideas of "Übermenschen" and master races, games like Wolfenstein are important to show that people are not fine with those ideologies. That we revere people who stand up and fight against them.
It's not zombies who can't help themselves, it's not alien who simply don't care, it's deeply wrong and misguided humans, our own kind, who can be our worst enemy. And we're not fine with it. The Wolfenstein nazis are a symbol of that.

If that ever gets old, we're lost.
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morolf: Soviet system was very bad for peasants (forced collectivization, de-kulakization and all that).
Umm... not at first.

The original idea was to disown the big land owners and stop the exploitation of the masses of basically bondage field workers, by giving them their own land to work on, and then form collectives of those small time farmers so they could share expensive machines. That was - IMO - a great idea, and it actually worked out for instance in East Germany, where many farmers kept this system alive even after the reunification - and still thrive, because it's really effective.
It didn't work in Russia and other countries, where party officials basically took the power and assumed the roles of the previous big land owners, trying to move as much income as possible into their own pockets. Power corrupts. Add to that the extremely difficult situations everyone faces in Russia after a bloody revolution and a civil war, and two devastating world wars. Of the bright idealistic concepts that were proposed, there was basically nothing left in the end, especially after Stalin took over.
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Post edited December 24, 2020 by morolf
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morolf: But Gog isn't the place to discuss that, and I have no desire to get banned.
True. Let's leave it at that.

My elder daughter is a huge fan of Komodo Dragons btw. :-)
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toxicTom: My elder daughter is a huge fan of Komodo Dragons btw. :-)
Good to hear, maybe she can get one as a pet too :-)
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morolf: Soviet system was very bad for peasants (forced collectivization, de-kulakization and all that). Even during the civil war Bolsheviks used terroristic methods against peasants who tried to resist grain requisitioning (google "Tambov uprising", Bolsheviks even used poison gas against peasants there). So it wasn't just some aristocrats or rich capitalists who suffered.
But since discussing politics is prohibited on Gog, better to end that discussion...mods are rather ban-happy here.
Haha, a German expert, who done no kind of research and posts garbage picked from garbage bins like RFL and Soros clones under 80-402 Public Law! I can easily destroy every your argument, but people like you usually run away before that happens.
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Post edited December 24, 2020 by morolf
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toxicTom: Of the bright idealistic concepts that were proposed, there was basically nothing left in the end, especially after Stalin took over.
Do you mean the Trotsky? The guy who proposed "constant revolutions" and heated internal civil war? Which own family were feudal Kulaks? Then do your own research where he flee to and why actually Stalin ordered to hunt them down. Its after this US-imported communist mix that civil disorder settled and country started to stabilize - of course it was immediately sanctioned by West. Same stuff happened when Putin pushed oligarchs out of Russia and stopped civil war in Chechnya, he was immediately declared evil dictator.
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morolf: I doubt it, you'll just recycle Soviet propaganda. Really sad that so many Russians think Bolsheviks were great, you should hate them for all the damage they did to your country.
Bla bla bla BLA BLA.

Who were Kulaks and how did income and education of peasants change between 1920 and late 1930?
Post edited December 24, 2020 by Lin545
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Post edited December 24, 2020 by morolf