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Every now and then, the topic of "what is an RPG" comes up in some thread. Here, I am not going to talk about that (at least not in the OP), but rather talk about other genres and what their defining traits are:

Action: Game plays in real time, with player skill and reflexes determining the outcome of actions. In particular, whether an attack hits is determined by a collision check. Generally, players control a single character at a time in these games.

Puzzle: The game is, in a sense, abstract; however, there are defined rules that are consistent. Puzzles can be hand-crafted or random, and said games can be turn-based or real-time; contrast D.R.O.D. and Tetris, for example. (I classify Tetris, and similar games, as action puzzle games because they run in real-time.) Note that Solitaire card games (such as Knondike) are examples of random turn-based puzzle games.

Adventure: Adventure games are defined by the large number of special case interactions. For example, whether you can climb an object is a property of the individual object; there isn't some general rule about climbing. Similarly, pure adventure games lack combat systems; if a fight is to occur, often you need to perform a certain action to win; if you don't perform that action, you typically die.

Strategy: Strategy games are those where the player controls multiple units, and where the placement of those units is an important factor in the strategy. (Note that this category includes Chess.)

Any thoughts on this? In particular, can anyone think of any games for which these definitions break down?
It still doesn't explain wtf genre Spellforce and Giants are. :P
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tinyE: It still doesn't explain wtf genre Spellforce and Giants are. :P
Non-Fredrick-Goldfish-II games
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tinyE: It still doesn't explain wtf genre Spellforce and Giants are. :P
Never heard of those games.
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tinyE: It still doesn't explain wtf genre Spellforce and Giants are. :P
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dtgreene: Never heard of those games.
:O SCARY!

Pick them up! They aren't too expensive and they are fantastic.
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dtgreene: Never heard of those games.
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tinyE: :O SCARY!

Pick them up! They aren't too expensive and they are fantastic.
Last time I followed that advice it ended with a ride in a squad car, a trip to the hospital and lot's of legal fees!
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tinyE: :O SCARY!

Pick them up! They aren't too expensive and they are fantastic.
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Stevedog13: Last time I followed that advice it ended with a ride in a squad car, a trip to the hospital and lot's of legal fees!
Well, that's what you get for trying to steal those statues.
The point and click genre is practically defined by implementing pixel hunts and puzzles solved through moon logic.

The genre entries that defy those characteristics are sadly remembered less in much the same way as the most sensible opinion is drowned out by the loudest one.
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tinyE: It still doesn't explain wtf genre Spellforce and Giants are. :P
Then there's Sacrifice. And of course the ultimate genre-bender, Star Control 2.
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ScotchMonkey: The point and click genre is practically defined by implementing pixel hunts and puzzles solved through moon logic.

The genre entries that defy those characteristics are sadly remembered less in much the same way as the most sensible opinion is drowned out by the loudest one.
Such games fall under my definition of the adventure genre above; the puzzles in adventure games tend to involve figuring out what special case the game put in as a puzzle solution.

This is unlike puzzle games, where there is a clear set of rules for how things interact (for example, in many puzzle games, if you get 3 of the same thing in a row, they disappear).

Incidentally, puzzles in classic WRPGs tend to be of the adventure game type: Using a certain item (or sometimes skill) at a certain spot triggers a scripted event that allows you to proceed with the game. I can cite Wizardry 4 and Dragon Wars (two games which are actually not that similar) as examples here. The puzzles in some JRPGs (Lufia 2 as an example) feel more like actual puzzle games, in that they stick to a certain set of rules.

(Interesting case: Wizardry Gaiden 4, which I have recently played, has mostly adventure game style puzzles (often with other solutions, like picking a grate or violently murdering an NPC), but has one puzzle game style puzzle (a Rubik's Cube puzzle, which can't be bypassed like some of the others).)
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dtgreene: ...
In earlier discussions over main genres I've given my definition for action, adventure, strategy, simulation, RPG etc. I guess it was a bit similar to what you wrote.

One important thing is to first define what is a game, because my definition for genres stems from that (ie. the main genres are defined by what is expected from the player, how he is supposed to tackle obstacles the game gives to him). It is those obstacles that make a game a game, for me.

Yes it is increasingly becoming blurrier and blurrier when we have many "walking simulators" too, where there is necessarily no challenge whatsoever, nothing impeding your progress. When does a game stop being a game, and is merely an interactive story book, and vice versa? Is a "choose your adventure" electronic book a game? How about a story book which is not even branching, but you merely click "next" once in a while to see more of the story.

I've many times used such game as Activision's "Portal" (not to be confused by Valve's Portal game) as such an example of whether to define it as a game or not. Is it merely an electronic book you read? On the other hand, there is _some_ challenge as you are supposed to activate the new pieces of story from the database (I guess you need to just browse the different parts of the database, some things trigger and activate other parts etc.), but the challenge, if any, is quite minimal. You can't really fail in the "game", but some effort is still expected from you, besides just reading. Maybe similar thing with those modern walking simulators.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLoGOA3zgj4
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dtgreene: Every now and then, the topic of "what is an RPG" comes up in some thread. Here, I am not going to talk about that (at least not in the OP), but rather talk about other genres and what their defining traits are:

Action: Game plays in real time, with player skill and reflexes determining the outcome of actions. In particular, whether an attack hits is determined by a collision check. Generally, players control a single character at a time in these games.

Puzzle: The game is, in a sense, abstract; however, there are defined rules that are consistent. Puzzles can be hand-crafted or random, and said games can be turn-based or real-time; contrast D.R.O.D. and Tetris, for example. (I classify Tetris, and similar games, as action puzzle games because they run in real-time.) Note that Solitaire card games (such as Knondike) are examples of random turn-based puzzle games.

Adventure: Adventure games are defined by the large number of special case interactions. For example, whether you can climb an object is a property of the individual object; there isn't some general rule about climbing. Similarly, pure adventure games lack combat systems; if a fight is to occur, often you need to perform a certain action to win; if you don't perform that action, you typically die.

Strategy: Strategy games are those where the player controls multiple units, and where the placement of those units is an important factor in the strategy. (Note that this category includes Chess.)

Any thoughts on this? In particular, can anyone think of any games for which these definitions break down?
Or you could go play some games and stop trying to stereotype everything ;op
Stupid, pandering, myopic, care-less, recycled, boring, recycled, half-hearted, pedantic, recycled, out-of-touch, incessant and recycled.

notice a theme?
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dtgreene: Such games fall under my definition of the adventure genre above; the puzzles in adventure games tend to involve figuring out what special case the game put in as a puzzle solution.
To me the difference between an adventure game and a puzzle game is that in an adventure game the puzzles are set into some kind of world, quite often there is also a story to follow. Puzzle games are only about the puzzles to solve, quite often they are presented to you in a strict succession.

So Lemmings is a puzzle game (partly also action as it is in real-time), while Space Quest or ADVENT is an adventure game. The only reason those "puzzle based story games" are defined as "adventure games" is historical, ie. the earliest games what had any kind of story used simple item puzzles as the way to challenge the player (those impediments). That's maybe what confuses some nowadays, e.g. why aren't RPGs called "adventure games", as they clearly are about "adventuring" as well. Well, the term "adventure" (as a game genre term) just happened to be taken by those early item-puzzle/story games.
fuck,

I forgot; insufferable