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General discussionCan we trust Epic Games?(117 posts)(117 posts)
(117 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 05, 2021
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kohlrak: What guarantee do we have that this is the only information that they have acquired?
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Orkhepaj: what other info can they gather?
https://outline.com/GnnWDP

https://coveryourtracks.eff.org/

https://amiunique.org/
Post edited January 05, 2021 by Vendor-Lazarus
Posted January 05, 2021
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myconv: How did you block that?
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kohlrak: I assume what happened was steam attempted to get administrator privileges but completely forgot to actually ask windows for those privileges, so it essentially bugged out. I assume this was because i haven't started steam in a long time, so the update where they would've installed the service without the bugged installer was already passed, so they likely don't know about it. You should be able to disable it from your OS' services menu, but good luck finding it. It argued that it needed to do this for preventing cheating. Not a problem, as i don't cheat, and it's really up to the developers of a game to make it so that cheats can only be client side, which significantly limits their ability to make cheats.
You figure that is not a issue under Linux? Linux has a stronger permission system.
Posted January 05, 2021
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kohlrak: I assume what happened was steam attempted to get administrator privileges but completely forgot to actually ask windows for those privileges, so it essentially bugged out. I assume this was because i haven't started steam in a long time, so the update where they would've installed the service without the bugged installer was already passed, so they likely don't know about it. You should be able to disable it from your OS' services menu, but good luck finding it. It argued that it needed to do this for preventing cheating. Not a problem, as i don't cheat, and it's really up to the developers of a game to make it so that cheats can only be client side, which significantly limits their ability to make cheats.
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myconv: You figure that is not a issue under Linux? Linux has a stronger permission system.
I will acknowledge that it doesn't provide the same weaknesses, however i don't believe that it wouldn't be a problem. What's going on here is that windows is providing a mediocre permissions system that is more or less working, which is why steam's having trouble. If steam was able to get what it wanted easily, we wouldn't be aware of it. Apparently, being able to spy on other ring 3 processes wasn't good enough for steam.
Posted January 05, 2021
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myconv: You figure that is not a issue under Linux? Linux has a stronger permission system.
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kohlrak: I will acknowledge that it doesn't provide the same weaknesses, however i don't believe that it wouldn't be a problem. What's going on here is that windows is providing a mediocre permissions system that is more or less working, which is why steam's having trouble. If steam was able to get what it wanted easily, we wouldn't be aware of it. Apparently, being able to spy on other ring 3 processes wasn't good enough for steam.
I have Kaspersky Security , it allows a lot of control of these permissions.
Win should redesign their permission model imho to be more like android.
Where I could set apps what they are allowed to do fe they only allowed to get info from their own folder nowhere else.
Posted January 05, 2021
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kohlrak: I will acknowledge that it doesn't provide the same weaknesses, however i don't believe that it wouldn't be a problem. What's going on here is that windows is providing a mediocre permissions system that is more or less working, which is why steam's having trouble. If steam was able to get what it wanted easily, we wouldn't be aware of it. Apparently, being able to spy on other ring 3 processes wasn't good enough for steam.
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Orkhepaj: I have Kaspersky Security , it allows a lot of control of these permissions.
Win should redesign their permission model imho to be more like android.
Where I could set apps what they are allowed to do fe they only allowed to get info from their own folder nowhere else.
Android has 3 or 4 different permissions systems and it's a complete mess and a pain to manage anything other than strictly app permissions (remember, Android is a linux distro). Moreover, your kaspersky security suit is only as powerful as it's own permissions level, which is likely the same one steam is asking for.

What i would prefer is something like SE linux but a bit more responsive (it should tell you when it blocks certain things, which it doesn't always by default on some distros). I wouldn't mind some hardware level support for such a system, either, or at least 2 layers (sysadmin and per user) for doing so.

EDIT: If you want to see something really intersting, look into "hooks API." That should anger you.
Post edited January 05, 2021 by kohlrak
Posted January 05, 2021
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kohlrak:
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myconv: You figure that is not a issue under Linux? Linux has a stronger permission system.
Linux (because it is unix) was created as a multi-user system, from the ground up. Windows was famously copied from CP/M by Gates as a single-user OS; it wasn't until 3.1 became for Workgroups in the understated point-release 3.11, that there was even an attempt at preventing other users from accessing root. It was rebuilt a few times (NT was the first, in 32 bit) but legacy compatibility seems to have been an achilles heel.

So Linux is much, much safer —— providing you understand and configure it correctly —— which is no mean proviso.
Posted January 05, 2021
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scientiae: Secondly, it relies on the safety of the free internet. (The Russian internet is owned and operated by the government, for instance, and they can intercept anything they want. Everybody has heard of the Chinese firewall, behind which citizens cannot read such divisive sites as Wikipedia.)
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StingingVelvet: I mean obviously if you live somewhere without free speech laws and whatnot then that changes things when it comes to google and whatnot. If we're still talking about Epic Games though, they have literally nothing that comes close to vulnerable information. They have a list of games I own, an older email address, and that's it. I just don't think it's a concern, even in a stricter society assuming Epic don't sell banned games, and don't blame others for not caring.

In a more general sense I do agree you obviously need to watch what you're doing online in general if you're "up to no good" by the standards of your country. However I think we were mostly talking about things like Google learning your consumer habits and using that to figure out how to manipulate consumers better, like your AI example. Again... I don't think people care. I get that you care, but I don't think your arguments would persuade my wife for a hot second to care about Google tracking her clothing store searches.

You'd say "they're using your info to better learn how to make you buy X or Y in the future!!!" and she'd say "so what?"
I agree there is little danger from Google right now.

The problem is, in the future, it will be impossible to put the djinni back in the bottle. Does your wife worry about the sanctity of a secret ballot? Does that not give you pause, to think that the government right now could determine who didn't vote for them?

Look at how the CCP is using technology to control its population. They have a traffic-light system in place right now (straight out of Nineteen Eighty-Four, or, for gaming relevance, Half-Life 2 :) that intercepts individuals for the government when they are in public, like entering a building or catching a train. The system is granular and uses both smartphone app and ubiquitous CCTV facial recognition.

I'm with Lord Dalberg-Acton when he said "power corrupts".
Posted January 06, 2021
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kohlrak: What guarantee do we have that this is the only information that they have acquired?
If Epic are using the Epic client to scan people's computers for private information and then sharing it with China that would obviously be a whole other can of worms, but it A) would have been caught by now, and B) would be extremely illegal if not treasonous. Forgive me for doubting it.


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scientiae: The problem is, in the future, it will be impossible to put the djinni back in the bottle. Does your wife worry about the sanctity of a secret ballot? Does that not give you pause, to think that the government right now could determine who didn't vote for them?
I mean, my wife put a Biden sign in our front yard so I doubt she cares lol.

But yes, I agree with you that there are deep concerns here for the future. I would support various government regulations to limit how this information is used, but sadly our Congress is so broken nothing can be accomplished. Hopefully that improves at some point, though I'm not holding my breath.

With Epix specifically though, I don't see reasons to be concerned (as of now).
Posted January 06, 2021
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kohlrak: What guarantee do we have that this is the only information that they have acquired?
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StingingVelvet: If Epic are using the Epic client to scan people's computers for private information and then sharing it with China that would obviously be a whole other can of worms, but it A) would have been caught by now,
I seriously doubt that. The average person seems to be unconcerned with that sort of thing, anymore, and why would researchers focus so much on epic when it's a trend that will shortly die out soon enough? These clients send data back and forth all the damn time, but it's a waste of time and effort trying to decrypt this stuff to identify what's actually being sent, especially when everyone has learned that warnings of issue X with company Y usually get you nailed by fanboys, possibly sued for libel (even if you can prove it to some degree), and it's not likely to change any perceptions, anyway. Look at facebook.

The only reason TikTok was caught was because because of the iPhone update which notified users when a given app was checking out their clipboard.
and B) would be extremely illegal if not treasonous. Forgive me for doubting it.
And technically illegal in china if they don't do it. This is why the US government under Trump has been looking into it.
Posted January 06, 2021
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kohlrak: And technically illegal in china if they don't do it. This is why the US government under Trump has been looking into it.
Yes I'm sure Sweeney is risking a death sentence for treason to please a minority partner when he has a massive cash cow printing money on a daily basis. As a US company, they aren't subject to Chinese laws, Tencent are just investors. Some of you guys are reading too much Info Wars.

In any event, don't shop there if you don't want to. My point is that nobody cares about this stuff outside of a very small minority, and I stand by that assessment 100%. You're gonna have to do a lot better if you want to convince them otherwise.
Posted January 06, 2021
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kohlrak: And technically illegal in china if they don't do it. This is why the US government under Trump has been looking into it.
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StingingVelvet: Yes I'm sure Sweeney is risking a death sentence for treason to please a minority partner when he has a massive cash cow printing money on a daily basis.
If the US took treason seriously the last few democratic candidates for president wouldn't've been running, let alone the most recent "victory." I'm sure a few republicans would be in that mix, too. US government isn't all that nationalist, anymore, and answers to some obscure higher calling. Plus, the corporate shield protects his ass, like it protects everyone: just find a scapegoat who can easily defend themselves as not actually having been the one.
As a US company, they aren't subject to Chinese laws, Tencent are just investors.
We'll see how this plays out as time goes on. Let's watch the actual manifestations of this.
In any event, don't shop there if you don't want to. My point is that nobody cares about this stuff outside of a very small minority, and I stand by that assessment 100%. You're gonna have to do a lot better if you want to convince them otherwise.
Unfortunately, you're actually right about this, in the same way that nobody cares about DRM outside of a very small minority. Most people don't seem to care about COVID, either, until they know someone who has it, then, suddenly, it's serious business. I don't know what the point of your point is, really. Someone started the thread, because they do care, making your point worthless, no?
Posted January 06, 2021
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StingingVelvet: Yes I'm sure Sweeney is risking a death sentence for treason to please a minority partner when he has a massive cash cow printing money on a daily basis.
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kohlrak: If the US took treason seriously the last few democratic candidates for president wouldn't've been running, let alone the most recent "victory." I'm sure a few republicans would be in that mix, too. US government isn't all that nationalist, anymore, and answers to some obscure higher calling. Plus, the corporate shield protects his ass, like it protects everyone: just find a scapegoat who can easily defend themselves as not actually having been the one.

As a US company, they aren't subject to Chinese laws, Tencent are just investors.
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kohlrak: We'll see how this plays out as time goes on. Let's watch the actual manifestations of this.

In any event, don't shop there if you don't want to. My point is that nobody cares about this stuff outside of a very small minority, and I stand by that assessment 100%. You're gonna have to do a lot better if you want to convince them otherwise.
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kohlrak: Unfortunately, you're actually right about this, in the same way that nobody cares about DRM outside of a very small minority. Most people don't seem to care about COVID, either, until they know someone who has it, then, suddenly, it's serious business. I don't know what the point of your point is, really. Someone started the thread, because they do care, making your point worthless, no?
This resonated with me.

Anyway, don't trust big business. Keep your pants on. They'll sell them if you take them off.
It is their profit and your loss of pants.
Posted January 06, 2021
I have most launchers that are out there and don't have a problem with any of them, including Epic. I actually love their sales with the $10 off coupons on top of the percent off sales. Made a killing buying a whole bunch of games from GOG, Epic and Steam this Christmas!
Posted January 07, 2021
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kohlrak: What guarantee do we have that this is the only information that they have acquired?
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Orkhepaj: what other info can they gather?
I don't know it's true but i read that Windows 10 still use massive amount of telemetry
they just hide it better under the hood.

unfortunate i have no hard prove to back this claim up but people report data is still being send back to somewhere.
I personally not have problems with telemetry i using a LTSB windows that not have much telemetry with anti-beacon.

still if you absolute wanna have privacy you should use at minimal at least linux with open sources so the data can be check for backdoors etc.

I also read most modern CPU have a backdoor (if this is truth i don't know not sure how a single CPU can access useful information still where their is smoke their is mostly fire) *this is more FBI next level shit should not effect most people*
Post edited January 07, 2021 by Abishia
Posted January 08, 2021
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Emerald_Child: I have most launchers that are out there and don't have a problem with any of them, including Epic. I actually love their sales with the $10 off coupons on top of the percent off sales. Made a killing buying a whole bunch of games from GOG, Epic and Steam this Christmas!
That was a great deal, I agree.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionCan we trust Epic Games?(117 posts)(117 posts)
(117 posts)