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I like being DRM-free. But I keep hearing over and over users saying that Steam doesn't do exclusive deals with devs/publishers. Yet I thought that was the whole point of DRM. Exclusive deal between dev and DRM to force users to install DRM bloatware in order to play a game they love. So legitimate stores like GOG seemed to have suffered from Steam's dominance. Is that not an exclusive deal so that games choosing DRM are exclusive with the only DRM available (Steam)?
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50urc3c0d3: I like being DRM-free. But I keep hearing over and over users saying that Steam doesn't do exclusive deals with devs/publishers. Yet I thought that was the whole point of DRM. Exclusive deal between dev and DRM to force users to install DRM bloatware in order to play a game they love. So legitimate stores like GOG seemed to have suffered from Steam's dominance. Is that not an exclusive deal so that games choosing DRM are exclusive with the only DRM available (Steam)?
You throw together two completely unrelated things: DRM and exclusivity.

GOG could very well have (a) game(s) totally exclusive (think "The Witcher", think Cyberpunk 2077") - despite being DRM-free.
At the same time, any DRM'd game can be sold on every available store/platform - as long as this store/platform sells DRM'd games.

Edit: typo
Post edited August 18, 2019 by BreOl72
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50urc3c0d3: I like being DRM-free. But I keep hearing over and over users saying that Steam doesn't do exclusive deals with devs/publishers. Yet I thought that was the whole point of DRM. Exclusive deal between dev and DRM to force users to install DRM bloatware in order to play a game they love. So legitimate stores like GOG seemed to have suffered from Steam's dominance. Is that not an exclusive deal so that games choosing DRM are exclusive with the only DRM available (Steam)?
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BreOl72: You throw together two completely unrelated things: DRM and exclusivity.

GOG could very well have (a) game(s) totally excliuive (think "The Witcher", think Cyberpunk 2077") - despite being DRM-free.
At the same time, any DRM'd game can be sold on every available store/platform - as long as this store/platform sells DRM'd games.
OK. Does GOG have exclusive games? As far as I'm aware, both Witcher and Cyberpunk 2077 PC games are sold all over.

For DRM itself though, seems devs would need to work out a deal with Steam for their DRM.
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50urc3c0d3: OK. Does GOG have exclusive games? As far as I'm aware, both Witcher and Cyberpunk 2077 PC games are sold all over.
As far as I'm aware - no.
However, I believe there was a thread once, where people could list OLD games, that were exclusively sold on GOG.
But it's possible that that was before Steam started to sell these old games, too (there's also that one infamous example of a game on the Steam store, that showed screenshots made by GOG employees on its shop page).
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50urc3c0d3: For DRM itself though, seems devs would need to work out a deal with Steam for their DRM.
They don't have to work a deal out for Steam's DRM. They simply have to decide whether they want to use it or not.
And they are still free to add any other DRM (unrelated to Steam) to their games.
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50urc3c0d3: I like being DRM-free. But I keep hearing over and over users saying that Steam doesn't do exclusive deals with devs/publishers. Yet I thought that was the whole point of DRM. Exclusive deal between dev and DRM to force users to install DRM bloatware in order to play a game they love. So legitimate stores like GOG seemed to have suffered from Steam's dominance. Is that not an exclusive deal so that games choosing DRM are exclusive with the only DRM available (Steam)?
It depends on your perspective. "Technically" a lot of people seem to be wanting to make arbitrary distinction between "Well Epic are paying publishers to remove it from other stores and that's what a proper Exclusive is, whilst Steam just have a natural monopoly of encouraging devs to be lazy but not officially preventing them from releasing elsewhere", ie, the argument boils down to "greed fuelled anti-competition = evil, but laziness fuelled anti-competition = good". Likewise during Steam's early days, Valve "played their own games" to discourage early 3rd party devs from "digitally competing" with Steam by requiring they remove their own self hosted digital downloads (and even playable demo's) for a timed period. Here's the original release announcement for "Darwinia" from 2005:-

"We are very happy to announce the launch of Darwinia on Steam. Introversion has teamed up with Valve to release Darwinia on their online games distribution platform making it available to millions of new gamers. As part of the launch and Steam's exclusivity, we will no longer be offering Darwinia as a download option from our site, although it will still be possible to purchase shipped boxed copies. At Valve's request we will also be removing the demo from our site for about a month".

https://forums.introversion.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=40203

And for the practical argument, it matters little to end DRM-Free users when a "proper" exclusive is on Epic for one year before being released elsewhere via contractual blocking, vs Steam-only 'not really exclusives' end up taking 5-10 years before trickling through to GOG. Or when Steam also go out of their way to platform lock-in mods via Steam Workshop, Creation Club, etc vs supporting open / neutral sites like Nexus...

It's too early to tell how the Steam vs Epic dynamics will affect GOG. If after a year Epic-only games get re-released only on Steam then little will have changed for GOG customer, eg, even without Epic, Metro Exodus wouldn't be here at launch anyway due to Denuvo. OTOH, if games like Exodus get simultaneously re-released on Steam and GOG after a year of Epic's "anti consumer antics" whilst we're still waiting for Steam-only DRM'd Skyrim 8-10 years later, then a lot of people here will be quietly LOLing at the "Epic Games are the only ones holding back gamers right to choose which store to buy on..." thing currently doing the rounds on Reddit. ;-)
Post edited August 18, 2019 by AB2012
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50urc3c0d3: OK. Does GOG have exclusive games?
Yes. Quite a few, but mostly old ones.
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/list_of_gog_games_that_arent_available_in_steam/page1
Post edited August 18, 2019 by Plokite_Wolf
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50urc3c0d3: OK. Does GOG have exclusive games?
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Plokite_Wolf: Yes. Quite a few, but mostly old ones.
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/list_of_gog_games_that_arent_available_in_steam/page1
The original Diablo being the arguably biggest (and most unexpected) one to land so far.
Hell actually froze over that day.
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50urc3c0d3: I like being DRM-free. But I keep hearing over and over users saying that Steam doesn't do exclusive deals with devs/publishers. Yet I thought that was the whole point of DRM. Exclusive deal between dev and DRM to force users to install DRM bloatware in order to play a game they love. So legitimate stores like GOG seemed to have suffered from Steam's dominance. Is that not an exclusive deal so that games choosing DRM are exclusive with the only DRM available (Steam)?
It's why I use the term "DRM-exclusive" for PC games that are tied to Scheme, Epic Fail, U-Rent, EA Orentgin, etc. For example, Skyrim is DRM-exclusive. Metro Exodus is DRM-exclusive. Dragon Age II is DRM-exclusive.

For a PC gamer like me who only wants to buy DRM-free, it really doesn't matter which of the above services a game is on. If the game is not available on a DRM-free store, I will eschew that game and buy something DRM-free instead.
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50urc3c0d3: I like being DRM-free. But I keep hearing over and over users saying that Steam doesn't do exclusive deals with devs/publishers. Yet I thought that was the whole point of DRM. Exclusive deal between dev and DRM to force users to install DRM bloatware in order to play a game they love. So legitimate stores like GOG seemed to have suffered from Steam's dominance. Is that not an exclusive deal so that games choosing DRM are exclusive with the only DRM available (Steam)?
Steam did not needed to do special exclusive deals; since they where/are the big chosen one, savior of PC gaming, golden god king of the western gaming world and came with build in drm a lot of dev/pubs made Steam mandatory for their game for PC (i.e. Skyrim or Fallout 4; you cannot play them legally on PC if you refuse Steam).
Lots of factual errors in your post, buddy.

"I keep hearing over and over users saying that Steam doesn't do exclusive deals with devs/publishers. Yet I thought that was the whole point of DRM. "

DRM is actually unrelated to exclusivity. The idea of DRM is copy-protection; rigging software so that it only runs under specific conditions that the dev/publisher can enforce. This helps prevent lost sales from users buying the software and (illegally) uploading it to the Internet for free download.

The oldest DRM schemes included special invisible markers on disk filesystems and questions from a manual included with a game. In the late 1990's and early 2000's, these were phased out in favor of disc checks (must have the CD/DVD in the computer to launch the game), serial numbers, and copy-protection on disc. In the mid to late 2000's there were the terrible malware-like DRMs, the most prominent example being SecuROM.

Modern DRMs are generally account-based with online authentication. Some require perpetual or periodic authentication; others require you to login once to unlock the game on a specific computer.


"Exclusive deal between dev and DRM" is a misnomer. I'm not aware of specific deals between any dev/publisher and DRM vendor where the dev/publisher gets a discount on the DRM tools in exchange for putting it on all of their games.

There are several reasons why a store might do exclusives with devs/publishers:
* The store wants to promote itself. The Epic Fail store is the best example that comes to mind - a newcomer to the market propelled only by Fortnite and Unreal Engine. They have much money and little attention (compared to the other online stores), so paying devs/publishers for exclusives makes sense.
* Dodging distribution fees, or disagreement over the terms of distribution and sales. EA and Ubisoft are the major examples. In the late 2000's, Steam was virtually a monopoly on digital game distribution, imposing a 20-30% "tax" on all sales. EA and Ubisoft decided they didn't want to pay the distribution fees. IIRC, EA got into trouble with Valve for their practice of side-loading expansions to dodge Steam distribution fees - this prompted them to build Origin and discontinue all further distribution on Steam. EA would sell a base game on Steam to reach more customers, then sell expansions separately on their own website (where Valve can't impose the 20-30% cut of sales).
* Monopolizing the premier of a highly anticipated game. This usually applies to big-budget "AAA" games with a $50-$60 price tag at launch, which slowly depreciate down to $20 over time. Better games typically take 3 years to depreciate fully; shabby and extremely low-quality games (*cough cough* Anthem *cough*) can crash to $20 inside of a year. Something I often see in news on the Epic Fail store is that some games do limited-time exclusivity there, where they make the distribution Epic-exclusive for 6-12 months with a pledge to release on other platforms later, usually after some depreciation. This puts Epic at 2 advantages: #1 they make more money per unit sale than anyone else ever will, and #2 they get a jump-start on sales, which allows them to saturate the market and leave fewer prospective buyers for other stores. For example, if you bought an exclusive at the Epic store on launch, you probably won't buy the game again on a different platform when exclusivity expires - that would be redundant, except if you're gifting to a friend or something.


Steam is not DRM. There are plenty of DRM-free indie games available on Steam. IIRC Steam charges developers a bit of extra money on top of 20-30% distribution fee if they want to deploy a game with Steam DRM enabled.

I've also seen some old games on Steam that are basically the GOG version with a Steam wrapper. Navigating to the game folder finds a bunch of files associated with GOG installers, so it appears that GOG is selling some of its installers on Steam to reach a few extra people and make some extra money.
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Well Steam *is* DRM - The fact is, you HAVE to have Steam installed and you HAVE to be able to log into your account in order to install and play any game you buy on the Steam platform. That it has obnoxious on-line call-home copy protection on top of that is just another kick in the balls.

I don't use Steam so I don't have first-hand experience, but I've never seen a game on Steam that didn't have some sort of copy protection - I've had friends claim such but it turned out they were just talking about the off-line mode, which still requires the game to 'check-in' occasionally, as one of my friends discovered when he was without internet access for a month.


GOG is more like the on-line software distributors from back in the day - You pay money, you get a download link and maybe a key, and that is it - Nothing further needs to take place between the two of you and you can go your separate ways, although GOG is a bit nicer in that you can still log into your account to re-download the software after the fact, which was not a thing with a lot of those online distributors (You were expected to store the install files somewhere; You lose it, you buy it again)

I bought a lot of stuff from those back then and still have the installers and can still install them now, even where the original companies no longer exist.

I can say the same of software I purchase from GOG but you cannot say the same of any software purchased from Steam.

If Steam ever goes away or you lose access to your account then you're basically in that creek people talk about that lacks paddles.

I really don't know why more people aren't bothered by this - It's already happened so much in the Console world, with games or whole platforms being pulled with no recourse or refund to the end-user. If it wasn't for the efforts of pirates, a lot of games would be lost forever in the console world, and I suspect many of the more obscure ones already have! And how much money has been spent on titles that people can no longer access for no good reason?
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Cyker: Well Steam *is* DRM - The fact is, you HAVE to have Steam installed and you HAVE to be able to log into your account in order to install and play any game you buy on the Steam platform.
Nope. Aside from the initial installation, Steam games don't necessarily require Steam. Some do, some don't.
I don't use Steam so I don't have first-hand experience, but I've never seen a game on Steam that didn't have some sort of copy protection
https://steam.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games
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DivisionByZero.620: IIRC Steam charges developers a bit of extra money on top of 20-30% distribution fee if they want to deploy a game with Steam DRM enabled.
From what I understand Steam may charge for CEG (because it involves Steam having to Generate a Custom Executable per user, per CEG protected game), but "Normal" Steamworks API DRM client check that approx 94% of Steam games use is included (and encouraged by Steam by default) and doesn't carry any extra fees.

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DivisionByZero.620: I've also seen some old games on Steam that are basically the GOG version with a Steam wrapper. Navigating to the game folder finds a bunch of files associated with GOG installers, so it appears that GOG is selling some of its installers on Steam to reach a few extra people and make some extra money.
From what I've heard, some devs / publishers seem to have agreements with GOG that they can reuse any enhancements / tweaks made for the GOG release elsewhere in future. It certainly isn't GOG "selling on Steam" (for which they'll receive 0 cut), it's probably just the devs repackaging former GOG enhancements for Steam re-releases. A sleazy move if true, but it certainly explains why games like Commandos Enemy Lines were initially broken on Steam when they were released "raw" a few years back, then magically started working when a compatibility fix was included that looked & behaved virtually identical to GOG's...
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AB2012: It depends on your perspective. "Technically" a lot of people seem to be wanting to make arbitrary distinction between "Well Epic are paying publishers to remove it from other stores and that's what a proper Exclusive is, whilst Steam just have a natural monopoly of encouraging devs to be lazy but not officially preventing them from releasing elsewhere", ie, the argument boils down to "greed fuelled anti-competition = evil, but laziness fuelled anti-competition = good". Likewise during Steam's early days, Valve "played their own games" to discourage early 3rd party devs from "digitally competing" with Steam by requiring they remove their own self hosted digital downloads (and even playable demo's) for a timed period. Here's the original release announcement for "Darwinia" from 2005:-

"We are very happy to announce the launch of Darwinia on Steam. Introversion has teamed up with Valve to release Darwinia on their online games distribution platform making it available to millions of new gamers. As part of the launch and Steam's exclusivity, we will no longer be offering Darwinia as a download option from our site, although it will still be possible to purchase shipped boxed copies. At Valve's request we will also be removing the demo from our site for about a month".

https://forums.introversion.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=40203

And for the practical argument, it matters little to end DRM-Free users when a "proper" exclusive is on Epic for one year before being released elsewhere via contractual blocking, vs Steam-only 'not really exclusives' end up taking 5-10 years before trickling through to GOG. Or when Steam also go out of their way to platform lock-in mods via Steam Workshop, Creation Club, etc vs supporting open / neutral sites like Nexus...

It's too early to tell how the Steam vs Epic dynamics will affect GOG. If after a year Epic-only games get re-released only on Steam then little will have changed for GOG customer, eg, even without Epic, Metro Exodus wouldn't be here at launch anyway due to Denuvo. OTOH, if games like Exodus get simultaneously re-released on Steam and GOG after a year of Epic's "anti consumer antics" whilst we're still waiting for Steam-only DRM'd Skyrim 8-10 years later, then a lot of people here will be quietly LOLing at the "Epic Games are the only ones holding back gamers right to choose which store to buy on..." thing currently doing the rounds on Reddit. ;-)
Thanks for this detailed intelligent response. It is extremely helpful.

I think EGS coming onto the scene for that dynamic seems really great so far. Even DARQ was planning to release exclusive to Steam DRM. But then, because of uproar with EGS, ended up going DRM-free to GOG. I have yet to see anything, but good happening left and right because of EGS vs if it never existed. (This is on top of getting some amazing games free - Subnautica, Rhime, Witness, etc.)

Of course, this is all short-term. But what happens in the long-term when EGS turns into Steam? I honestly think EGS model won't change much. DRM being anit-consumer, EGS is the least anti-consumer of them all. Their model is (in a good way) insane. Not just their cut in revenue. But also a 4-5% boost to devs using their engine. Not just backing funding with guaranteed revenue on sales targets for AAA games that are almost guaranteed hits. Also doing so for indis with much more risk.

I don't know about Steam pulling console exclusives to PC. But definitely EGS has managed to pull some that I was so disappointed about not coming to PC. I personally don't give a flying flick about launchers. But I don't see why EGS launcher itself wouldn't be twice as good as Steam in half the time it took Steam to get to where they will end up going.

I think another big thing with EGS is DRM limitations which also means alot for GOG. As in timed DRM. Unless EGS plans to seed itself as DRM in games after timed exclusivity, there's no benefit to EGS when exclusivity is over. This is just another benefit to their model. They're allowing devs to continue to profit elsewhere in the long term. While they themselves will have to compete. Devs can sell anywhere, and as you mentioned, even on GOG. And from what it seems, it maybe similar to how movies and home media operate. Movies pretty much always release in theaters first. When viewership dies down, they're pulled from the box office schedules. Then eventually, release to cable and home media.

I might see this as a step forward for DRM-free. Where they release with DRM, and eventually go DRM-free. Maybe after a year. But eventually within months similar to home movies.

So for the short-term I don't see how things haven't gotten objectively better for PC Gaming as a whole since EGS showed up. And for the long-term, it really looks to be an improvement.
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rjbuffchix: It's why I use the term "DRM-exclusive" for PC games that are tied to Scheme, Epic Fail, U-Rent, EA Orentgin, etc. For example, Skyrim is DRM-exclusive. Metro Exodus is DRM-exclusive. Dragon Age II is DRM-exclusive.

For a PC gamer like me who only wants to buy DRM-free, it really doesn't matter which of the above services a game is on. If the game is not available on a DRM-free store, I will eschew that game and buy something DRM-free instead.
This is the only thing I can respect. It makes no sense when users are mad and boycotting one DRM over the other or pointing fingers at one over the other. As if they're taking a stand for the consumer? WTF? Are they standing for DRM-free? No.

Yes the rest of us who still play DRM games take it up the ass to play certain games we like. But few of us will ever admit that we are taking it up the ass without being delusional about it.
Post edited August 19, 2019 by 50urc3c0d3
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50urc3c0d3: I like being DRM-free. But I keep hearing over and over users saying that Steam doesn't do exclusive deals with devs/publishers. Yet I thought that was the whole point of DRM. Exclusive deal between dev and DRM to force users to install DRM bloatware in order to play a game they love. So legitimate stores like GOG seemed to have suffered from Steam's dominance. Is that not an exclusive deal so that games choosing DRM are exclusive with the only DRM available (Steam)?
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Anothername: Steam did not needed to do special exclusive deals; since they where/are the big chosen one, savior of PC gaming, golden god king of the western gaming world and came with build in drm a lot of dev/pubs made Steam mandatory for their game for PC (i.e. Skyrim or Fallout 4; you cannot play them legally on PC if you refuse Steam).
So why do users point fingers at EGS?

Just like you mentioned somebody who has a monopolistic dominance over DRM wouldn't need exclusivity. Somebody else here even brought up hard evidence of exclusivity deals with Steam in its early days.