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Zrevnur: Copyright does (at least in US) not seem to prevent all ("legal") preservation - unless they got all the rights in the normal way for this?
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/internet_archive_makes_thousands_of_dos_games_free_including_master_of_orion/page1
Actually, at least as far as US laws go Archive .org project is basically fully legal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Archive
CTRL + F (search): exemption

I would make a bigger fuss in regards to how this is used as an excuse to pirate some exceptionally high number of media originated outside of us (I do take an issue with some specific examples but I will not list them here) that is VERY "fresh" and whois IP owners would definitely not be pleased with being there should they know about it.
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Zrevnur: You promote an "enlightened rapport"? And you dont want them to not "get upset and more polarized"?
And then you even imply "may lead to disagreements".
From my POV those dont fit together:
Its a paradox, but it fits. You can respectfully disagree.

However, in order to do that, you need to use a language that is conductive to a respectful exchange.

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Zrevnur: If "corporations" are your issue - you may want to look at "Web 3.0". The means to (for example) create a fully decentralized shop will come. (But I dont see a way to enforce DRM free.)
Its not a technical problem, its a legal problem. The web can't fix this one. The law can.

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Zrevnur: Copyright does (at least in US) not seem to prevent all ("legal") preservation - unless they got all the rights in the normal way for this?
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/internet_archive_makes_thousands_of_dos_games_free_including_master_of_orion/page1
I'm talking about the end goal of preservation with my last statement which is that eventually, a piece of intellectual property is accessible to all without constraints.

Copyright constraints how something can be distributed so that the copyright holder can get paid.

If a piece of intellectual property is no longer distributed by the copyright holder (or is distributed in a format that is not conductive to preservation), even if you have a copy that is preservable, you can't legally distribute it. And even if you can still buy it, if someone is very poor, they might not be able to purchase it either way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against copyright. I think authors should get paid. However, there is a balance to be had there. An author (or whatever entity holds the copyright if the author sells it or relinquishes it as an employee) should not have all the rights (at least, not after the creation has been monetised) and after the copyright holder had his/her cut, copyright should be allowed to expire so that things can enter the public domain and be accessible to all without constraints.
Post edited April 09, 2021 by Magnitus
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Magnitus: Don't get me wrong, I'm not against copyright. I think authors should get paid. However, there is a balance to be had there. An author (or whatever entity holds the copyright if the author sells it or relinquishes it as an employee) should not have all the rights (at least, not after the creation has been monetised) and after the copyright holder had his/her cut, copyright should be allowed to expire so that things can enter the public domain and be accessible to all without constraints.
Ultimately it all resolves around money and where to draw a borderline.
The merits of that could be discussed for a profoundly long period of time.
What I can personally say is that current copyright laws are utter BS and usually in no way appropriate in regards how things are in reality (versus some law makers' wet dreams).
I have kept my GOG boycott up and been buying retro console games instead, collection coming up nicely https://www.pricecharting.com/offers?status=collection&seller=43x6ewt7lseud7tydtebigd4ui&sort=starts&category=video-games&console=&condition-id=all

Latest purchases in the picture
Attachments:
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Leevi: I have kept my GOG boycott up and been buying retro console games instead, collection coming up nicely https://www.pricecharting.com/offers?status=collection&seller=43x6ewt7lseud7tydtebigd4ui&sort=starts&category=video-games&console=&condition-id=all

Latest purchases in the picture
Nice!

And I also see my avatar among the listed games.
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Time4Tea: No. From a legal perspective, freedom of speech is between me and my government. However, freedom of speech is also about a principle, which goes beyond just being a question of legality.

It might be legal for China to apply economic pressure to GOG to have a game they dislike pulled; however, as I see it, it violates the principle of freedom of speech. And that principle is something that I care about and believe in. I don't think it is right that Red Candle Games should be punished simply for expressing themselves artistically.

Whether China's/GOG's actions are legal or not, I find them distasteful and I am well within my rights to protest and boycott over it. Just because something is legal, does not automatically make it right, or mean that we should just accept it.

Tbh, the whole question of legality is quite irrelevant.
Freedom of speech does not mean you can say anything about anyone. Not even in your country. And you can't always take the "exit" "artistically expression".
Not even in your country.
Just want to say, that people in your country go mad on a regular base when your flag is burned somewhere again.

And for me it feels more, like China for now just claims the same rights the US does for decades now.
"Local" law below "our" law.
Or how a US judge once said about local laws, about data security and right for privacy some countries got by law.
It is about who controls the information, not where they are. He just said that way, that US law does apply world wide.

Even if I don't like what other countries do. I can't blame them for simply doing the same...
And every time i have to listen to US citizens trying to force their own believes down the throat of the whole world, I'm slightly amused.

We don't got naked tits in Giants: Citizen Kabuto, because we only get the US version. While GoG never had problems selling "problematic" versions" of games in other countries (not want to go into detail).

I also doubt, that any part of the chinese government did say anything about this.
I would say in this case we simply got chinese users who reminded GoG about their "grey" status in China and that it could lead to problems.
Those users, on the other hand, can still use a fully unrestricted GoG store and forum...


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Time4Tea: Yes, I have my own definition of what I consider to be 'DRM'. Because there is no globally agreed definition of DRM and GOG has not provided us with a definition they are working to. So, given that, what choice do I have except to formulate my own definition?
The GOG definition is quite clear. No kind of DRM for offline installers.
No kind of DRM when you want to single player part of the game.
That does fully work within the borders of the DRM definition. Your own definition is far outside of any more common one.
So is your definition of free speech.

And you just want to shove both down our throats.

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Time4Tea: I have been engaging in dialog for the past 100 pages of this thread, so I'm not quite sure where you are coming from there.
A "dialog" means, that you are willing to accept the arguments of others, even rethinking your own standpoint.
What you do is simple defending your "red line" you laid down in your first post.

You already said in your first post, that you are not interested in any kind of real dialog, that would honor the definition of a dialog.
You have shown so in the last 100 pages.

I can't say, that I'm surprised though.
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randomuser.833: The GOG definition is quite clear. No kind of DRM for offline installers.
No kind of DRM when you want to single player part of the game.
Yeah... that's no longer the case.
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randomuser.833: The GOG definition is quite clear. No kind of DRM for offline installers.
No kind of DRM when you want to single player part of the game.
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Breja: Yeah... that's no longer the case.
Name a game you can't install everywhere and anytime with your offline installers and play it.

And don't come up with some promotial T-shirts...
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Breja: Yeah... that's no longer the case.
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randomuser.833: Name a game you can't install everywhere and anytime with your offline installers and play it.

And don't come up with some promotial T-shirts...
Define "play it".

Do you mean play all of its single player content, or only part of it?

If you mean "all of it", then Absolver does not match your definition. Some of its single-player content (e.g. replaying boss battles in single player mode) can only be done online.
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Breja: Yeah... that's no longer the case.
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randomuser.833: Name a game you can't install everywhere and anytime with your offline installers and play it.

And don't come up with some promotial T-shirts...
You said "no kind of DRM". GOG employees said that at this point only "major" DRM is not allowed. You may be ok with that, but there's a difference between "none" and "everything they don't consider major".
Oh boy, yet another GOG DRM thread.
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Leevi: I have kept my GOG boycott up and been buying retro console games instead, collection coming up nicely https://www.pricecharting.com/offers?status=collection&seller=43x6ewt7lseud7tydtebigd4ui&sort=starts&category=video-games&console=&condition-id=all

Latest purchases in the picture
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mrkgnao: Nice!

And I also see my avatar among the listed games.
And your avatar is from... what game exactly?

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coffeecup: Oh boy, yet another GOG DRM thread.
Aren't you enlightening society here with this post of yours are you? /s
Also, kind of late to the party eh? Only noticed after ~ 2k posts?
Since you seem to care about the presence of those "types" of threads enough to come in and say obvious while adding NOTHING to the discussion then why did you come so late?
Of course you are free to cover your eyes to not see the problems with GOG.
Feel free to continue your bias ;)

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randomuser.833: I also doubt, that any part of the chinese government did say anything about this.
I would say in this case we simply got chinese users who reminded GoG about their "grey" status in China and that it could lead to problems.
Those users, on the other hand, can still use a fully unrestricted GoG store and forum...
The tweet's "gamers"?
Let's PRETEND for a second that PR BS was real.
In this case you can have only 2 options.
And you seem to either unknowingly or deliberately be overlooking them.
GOG claims (there are many official signs all over the site, both prompts as well as blues' messages) that "due to pandemic" GOG support is overloaded and DELAYS are basically GUARANTEED. It's semi implied one would have to wait DAYS on average and volume of tickets is in no way balanced for available human resources.
So, either:
A.The "messages" were in fact NOT many but some low number. In which case you could ask a question "how many does it take then" and how is it that such low number was even considered to be a valid reason for known followed actions.
OR
B.Those "gamers" got priority treatment and their implied MANY messages were processed in RECORD TIME in just FEW HOURS between game distribution announcement / game-product-card going live (IT WAS live for those couple of hours) and "the tweet".

Either option is bizzare and makes average person question GOG's standards and policies.

There is also "hidden" option C.
That gamers weren't many nor have they sent many messages.
It was simply a coverup for "operation" of sorts. (such as "intimidation by piechart" delivered as blackmail by foreign entity)
This option in short concludes it (the infamous tweet) was a lie.

edit: fixed a quote
Post edited April 10, 2021 by B1tF1ghter
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Leevi: I have kept my GOG boycott up and been buying retro console games instead, collection coming up nicely https://www.pricecharting.com/offers?status=collection&seller=43x6ewt7lseud7tydtebigd4ui&sort=starts&category=video-games&console=&condition-id=all

Latest purchases in the picture
Very nice!
Koudelka in PAL region is way cheaper than it is in NTSC/U region.
I also buy physical whenever possible as well:
https://www.pricecharting.com/offers?status=collection&seller=s5vxecfop7ofbvxxirwcyldguu

You cannot rely on digital distribution services. They could cut service any time.
Just look at PSN cutting PS3/PSP/PSV.
Exclusive digital only games for those consoles will be lost forever if not for piracy.
This is why DRM free options are so important.
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randomuser.833: Name a game you can't install everywhere and anytime with your offline installers and play it.

And don't come up with some promotial T-shirts...
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mrkgnao: Define "play it".

Do you mean play all of its single player content, or only part of it?

If you mean "all of it", then Absolver does not match your definition. Some of its single-player content (e.g. replaying boss battles in single player mode) can only be done online.
I see that one more as an online game with stripped down SP mode.
Something you should tell at the product side. The offline mode is DRM free though.

More a thing how the Devs want to have their game played and for me it is walking on the edge of the knife.

Btw, won't buy it because that game is build like it is. Just saying.

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randomuser.833: Name a game you can't install everywhere and anytime with your offline installers and play it.

And don't come up with some promotial T-shirts...
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Breja: You said "no kind of DRM". GOG employees said that at this point only "major" DRM is not allowed. You may be ok with that, but there's a difference between "none" and "everything they don't consider major".
DRM is about Verification technologies. that you are an rightful "owner" (or at last allowed to use it). Encryption and copy restrictions (does more apply to physical data storage of any kind), anti tamper techs, regional restrictions (does not mean isn't sold in country XYZ but can't be installed even if verified as a rightful "owner") and tracking of copies.

As long as you don't use galaxy, you won't find anything on GoG (Galaxy could be seen as tracking).
At best you could make up that the GoG account is some kind of verification before you download the installer. But because the installer is free to use however you want after doing so (and anybody else could do so too), it would fall flat.

You guys simply include or exclude anything to the big "DRM", that you want just to make your point.
You simply want to make up your very own definition to "show", that something is the way you want it.

A promo T-Shirt nothing from the points above.
Won't stop you from rambling, but to be honest, I don't care about self-righteous personal definitions.
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B1tF1ghter: The tweet's "gamers"?
Let's PRETEND for a second that PR BS was real.
In this case you can have only 2 options.
And you seem to either unknowingly or deliberately be overlooking them.
GOG claims (there are many official signs all over the site, both prompts as well as blues' messages) that "due to pandemic" GOG support is overloaded and DELAYS are basically GUARANTEED. It's semi implied one would have to wait DAYS on average and volume of tickets is in no way balanced for available human resources.
So, either:
A.The "messages" were in fact NOT many but some low number. In which case you could ask a question "how many does it take then" and how is it that such low number was even considered to be a valid reason for known followed actions.
OR
B.Those "gamers" got priority treatment and their implied MANY messages were processed in RECORD TIME in just FEW HOURS between game distribution announcement / game-product-card going live (IT WAS live for those couple of hours) and "the tweet".

Either option is bizzare and makes average person question GOG's standards and policies.

There is also "hidden" option C.
That gamers weren't many nor have they sent many messages.
It was simply a coverup for "operation" of sorts. (such as "intimidation by piechart" delivered as blackmail by foreign entity)
This option in short concludes it (the infamous tweet) was a lie.

edit: fixed a quote
What on earth does make you think this has anything to do with the support?
Since when does any kind of social media guy does support? Why should those users have used the support?

GoG can be reached on various social network platforms and usually social media guys of companys are not only there as speakers but they will forward feedback to the company they work for.
There can be many reasons to do so. General importance, the shit hit the fan very badly for one guy.
Or if you get same information several times.
So, if you are the social media guy and you are bombed by PNs, posts and whatever from various users about this single topic, you should know that something is going sideways and that you should forward this to your company.

And because you only start to move from that very strange idea with the support, all the other parts of your idea do fall flat.