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General discussionBoycotting DRM and Game Censorship on GOG, 2021-2022(5216 posts) (5216 posts) 
(5216 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 08, 2021
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Magnitus: However, in this case, I think you'd find a fair amount of people who will find that words like "idiot" and "moron" are in bad taste when referring to a live person, let alone a leader. I mean, you think that will lead to a more enlightened rapport with the sizeable following said leader has? Do you think they're gonna go "Oh yeah, you're right, he's idiot. Why didn't I see it before? OMG!!!" or do you think they'll just get upset and more polarized?
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Time4Tea: I don't quite see what point you are trying to push here. In the country I live in (US), freedom of speech and freedom from censorship are fundamental rights that are guaranteed by our constitution. I have the legal right to openly mock Chinese President xi jinping if I want to. Whether the Chinese (people or government) like that or not is completely irrelevant.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, by cancelling the release of Devotion, in my view GOG and China are conspiring to deny me my fundamental rights. That seems to be a good justification for a boycott, in my opinion.
I always loved how people from the US missunderstand their own laws.

Freedom of speach and censorship is between you and your government.
It does NOT applies for private platforms, as long as they are not to big to fail.

xkcd.com/1357/

Just for you.

And I'm on the side of Munroe.
It is the ulitmate concession to fall back to the free speech line of defense.
Regardless if it is about something you said or about attacking somebody who does do exactly what you want.

But to be fair.
The points you made in your first point already were a similar concession, because you opend up your "dialog" with your "red line" that you won't cross and that is partially made up by your own standards.
Talking about DRM here, because you made up your very own claim what DRM is.

So in the end, come up with "do what I want", what will leave anyone who you claim to address gives only 2 options.
Fall to your knees.
Or more likely ignoring you because you are not somebody who want any kind of dialog.
Posted April 09, 2021
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Time4Tea: voting with my wallet (which is also my right)
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Magnitus: I really hate this term. To me, it signals the capitulation of democracy to unregulated capitalism.

Refraining from purchasing something is not voting. Not even close.
If you dislike the term, fair enough. I'd rather not sidetrack the thread into a tangential semantic debate, although I agree with Lifthrasil's comments and imo the term fits the reality quite well.

However, I disagree with the 'cause and effect' implied by your first statement. The reason we have unregulated capitalism is not as a result of consumer actions, it is because of a lack of regulation from government. After all, governments are the only actors that could effectively regulate markets, but they often choose not to. In most western countries, what we have is unregulated capitalism (or at best lightly-regulated). This is being imposed on us, whether we like it or not.

I a not a fan of unregulated capitalism either. I would love for the US government to make DRM illegal for video games and other forms of digital media, but it isn't going to happen. I would love for the US government to work to bring down barriers to entry for new and smaller online game stores (like Zoom Platform). But again, it isn't going to happen.

So, my take on it is summed up very well by Lifthrasil's comment here:

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Lifthrasil: You may dislike the term for some reason. But it's the only form of democracy we have in a mostly unregulated market. There is no regulation authority where one could vote to forbid certain practices. But we do have the power to choose which kind of business to support with our money.
The way I see it, the only option I really have to protest against decisions that I don't like by a business that I am a customer of is to boycott with my wallet and voice my opinion, which is what I am doing.

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Magnitus: All I'm saying is that hoping to achieve the desired outcome using market forces will at times work (usually when there is a fair amount of competition and that only a single corporate actor is misbehaving), but fail often enough that it can't be considered a dependable solution.
So, what alternative solution do you recommend then? What else can I do? Go to Washington and personally lobby the US government to make DRM illegal?
Post edited April 09, 2021 by Time4Tea
Posted April 09, 2021
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randomuser.833: I always loved how people from the US missunderstand their own laws.

Freedom of speach and censorship is between you and your government.
It does NOT applies for private platforms, as long as they are not to big to fail.
No. From a legal perspective, freedom of speech is between me and my government. However, freedom of speech is also about a principle, which goes beyond just being a question of legality.

It might be legal for China to apply economic pressure to GOG to have a game they dislike pulled; however, as I see it, it violates the principle of freedom of speech. And that principle is something that I care about and believe in. I don't think it is right that Red Candle Games should be punished simply for expressing themselves artistically.

Whether China's/GOG's actions are legal or not, I find them distasteful and I am well within my rights to protest and boycott over it. Just because something is legal, does not automatically make it right, or mean that we should just accept it.

Tbh, the whole question of legality is quite irrelevant.

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randomuser.833: But to be fair.
The points you made in your first point already were a similar concession, because you opend up your "dialog" with your "red line" that you won't cross and that is partially made up by your own standards.
Talking about DRM here, because you made up your very own claim what DRM is.
Yes, I have my own definition of what I consider to be 'DRM'. Because there is no globally agreed definition of DRM and GOG has not provided us with a definition they are working to. So, given that, what choice do I have except to formulate my own definition?

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randomuser.833: So in the end, come up with "do what I want", what will leave anyone who you claim to address gives only 2 options.
Fall to your knees.
Or more likely ignoring you because you are not somebody who want any kind of dialog.
I have been engaging in dialog for the past 100 pages of this thread, so I'm not quite sure where you are coming from there.
Post edited April 09, 2021 by Time4Tea
Posted April 09, 2021
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Magnitus: To me, GOG has always been a convenience more than anything else (I know all the games here are DRM-free or still mostly are anyways, its one store to manage, convenient).
I agree. That's the main reason I haven't bought any game anywhere else since 2009.

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Magnitus: Then, I'll admit never having invested the time to research to what extent games on Steam are DRM-free.
Here is a very incomplete list, that is nevertheless many thousand game long: https://steam.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games (need to click on all those pesky "expand" buttons to see the sublists, but the first two are the main ones).

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Magnitus: My understanding is that you need a client to download games at all on Steam, which is a show stopper for me.
No. There's a (very primitive) command-line tool (https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/SteamCMD) to download and install games. And you can write your own as their API is public, AFAIK.
Posted April 09, 2021
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mrkgnao: I believe this is a difference between an idealist and a pragmatist.

An idealist would say "until the regulators manage to correct the situation, I will at least refrain from supporting these harmful practices".

A pragmatist would say "until the regulators manage to correct the situation, I might as well join the masses".
My viewpoint on this is quite different, since I consider myself both highly idealistic and highly pragmatic. Idealism is about choosing goals. Pragmatism is about choosing solutions. Solutions are not possible to conceive without first having goals to guide them.

Because of my idealistic nature, the goals of supporting ethical practices and personally staying true to my own integrity trump the goal of having fun playing commercial video games by several orders of magnitude. The best use of my effort and time, at the cost of sometimes foregoing the latter, is therefore a strategy based in pragmatism to promote the former.

The strategy I personally employ becomes threefold:

1. Be part of the hardline stance crowd rather than the apathy / self-fulfilling prophecy crowd, since it increases the likelihood (however small that individual increase may be) that GOG can be convinced to conform to the ideals I care about them conforming to.

2. Only make demands that are reasonable, so that GOG actually has the opportunity and ability to fulfill them, thereby further increasing that likelihood.

3. Since "voting with your wallet" requires a high quantity of participants to actually work, be open, transparent and vocal about it to get the word out and try to educate and encourage people, but avoid being so forceful or toxic that they become alienated (i.e. meet people halfway). This mix promotes the growth of a movement, which on average may or may not share all of my goals, but could potentially further increase the likelihood of some being fulfilled.

So I am indeed "refraining from supporting these harmful practices" but more importantly I'm doing what little I can to promote an alternative.
Posted April 09, 2021
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Magnitus: My understanding is that you need a client to download games at all on Steam, which is a show stopper for me.
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mrkgnao: No. There's a (very primitive) command-line tool (https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/SteamCMD) to download and install games. And you can write your own as their API is public, AFAIK.
Actually that tool is pretty darn extensible if you dig deeper into Valve's developer documentation.
Tho regarding depot downloading:
Valve has a nasty habit of leaving many "developer" features in plain sight and they just leave them be until enough people notice them at which point they often lock them in some way.
I haven't done this in many months so I cannot test it personally.
But there are many reports that normal depot downloading no longer works as Valve introduced some sort of token authentication system for that some time ago.
(ergo more API calls and it's implied they did not implement it in SteamCMD [or at the very least "normal" Steam])
Depot downloader is reported working tho:
https://github.com/SteamRE/DepotDownloader
(it's kind of a pain whoever is behind the project apparently [unless I'm misreading] made dependency on NET instead of using Mono, it makes the whole thing not entirely cross system, tho it almost definitely can be made to work on Linux in one way or another anyway)

edit: fixed some spelling
Post edited April 09, 2021 by B1tF1ghter
Posted April 09, 2021
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Hexchild: <snip>
I agree. That's why I try to post about the boycott on other threads when I feel it is appropriate (e.g. in a release thread of a game that I would have otherwise instabought, and now instaboycott instead). Judging by how quickly these posts get downvoted, I am sure they do not go unnoticed.

I would have gladly posted about the boycott also on social media (e.g. twitter, facebook), but --- being an idealist of sorts --- I don't have any social media accounts, nor do I plan ever to have any (despite being a novelist who is still trying to promote his debut novel from time to time).

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B1tF1ghter: <snip>
I didn't really look into the issue in depth since I don't use steam. Still, about a couple of months ago I did try the SteamCMD tool --- I opened a steam account and got a code for some obscure DRM-free game from a friend just for testing. It seemed to work fine --- installed and played the game offline for a few minutes, without any issue and without ever having had the steam client.

If I ever find a reason to buy on steam, I'll look into it further.
Post edited April 09, 2021 by mrkgnao
Posted April 09, 2021
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Hexchild: <snip>
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mrkgnao: I agree. That's why I try to post about the boycott on other threads when I feel it is appropriate (e.g. in a release thread of a game that I would have otherwise instabought, and now instaboycott instead). Judging by how quickly these posts get downvoted, I am sure they do not go unnoticed.
Two words:
bot networks.

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B1tF1ghter: <snip>
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mrkgnao: I didn't really look into the issue in depth since I don't use steam. Still, about a couple of months ago I did try the SteamCMD tool --- I opened a steam account and got a code for some obscure DRM-free game from a friend just for testing. It seemed to work fine --- installed and played the game offline for a few minutes, without any issue and without ever having had the steam client.

If I ever find a reason to buy on steam, I'll look into it further.
I can tell you this:
I used SteamCMD in the past and I do have pretty unusual technical knowledge about Steam's inner workings.
Depot downloading with syntax from Valve's official documentation definitely did work in the past (btw the documentation is beyond incomplete and imprecise at times).
It's guaranteed to work for actual execution of games (granted that you properly put together folder structure as it's supposed to be) as Steam client itself does exactly this process just in more automated way (also uses delta manifests by default).
I haven't downloaded any depots nor used SteamCMD for past many months.
In the meantime I heard rumors that Valve locked the "normal" procedure behind some sort of additional authentication.
I cannot currently check if it works in SteamCMD or not. But it's basically known by now that it doesn't work in Steam itself (you totally could pull out command prompt within normal Steam if you knew how and it was possible to download using the same syntax, tho this command prompt was somewhat less usable for many reasons [at least on Windows, on Linux you can run entire Steam client from terminal, therefore get actual debug live info, and so there is some more possibilities there]).
But the depot downloader app was created for the very reason that it allegedly "doesn't work" anymore and thus it is actually working properly.
Posted April 09, 2021
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mrkgnao: I agree. That's why I try to post about the boycott on other threads when I feel it is appropriate (e.g. in a release thread of a game that I would have otherwise instabought, and now instaboycott instead). Judging by how quickly these posts get downvoted, I am sure they do not go unnoticed.
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B1tF1ghter: Two words:
bot networks.
I don't think so. Not in this case. When somebody complained about my being downvoted, more than one goglodyte (including long-standing members) came forward to explain why they had downvoted me.
Posted April 09, 2021
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Time4Tea: However, I disagree with the 'cause and effect' implied by your first statement. The reason we have unregulated capitalism is not as a result of consumer actions, it is because of a lack of regulation from government. After all, governments are the only actors that could effectively regulate markets, but they often choose not to. In most western countries, what we have is unregulated capitalism (or at best lightly-regulated). This is being imposed on us, whether we like it or not.

I a not a fan of unregulated capitalism either. I would love for the US government to make DRM illegal for video games and other forms of digital media, but it isn't going to happen. I would love for the US government to work to bring down barriers to entry for new and smaller online game stores (like Zoom Platform). But again, it isn't going to happen.
Not all governments are the same. In North America, our politicians are extremely pro business (in the US even more than Canada, but we're not too far behind). North America is a corporate wet dream right now. I think we might be in the gutter for the better part of another generation... people still hungering to get exploited some more.

Some hopeful things happening in the rest of the world though. Europe's GDPR was great (seriously, companies were getting out of control with users' data). Australia suing Steam over their refund policy (or lack of thereof). Some nice stuff.

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Time4Tea: So, what alternative solution do you recommend then? What else can I do? Go to Washington and personally lobby the US government to make DRM illegal?
Inform yourself:
https://www.amazon.ca/Imagine-democracy-Judy-Rebick/dp/0773732292
https://www.amazon.ca/End-Ownership-Personal-Property-Digital/dp/0262035014/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&amp;keywords=the+end+of+ownership&amp;qid=1617931764&amp;s=books&amp;sr=1-1

Talk to people about what you know (a lot of people are very ignorant, from what I gathered, most Canadians don't even know what preferential/ranked-choice voting is even though it is vastly superior to the first-past-the-post voting system that we have... political parties even use it internally to elect their leaders... but I guess its just too good to share with the regular voting peasants below). Spread the knowledge.

Use whatever talents you possess to increase openeness. If you like to write, write a blog about what you learn and your ideas. If you know how to code, contribute open-source code to increase what is possible for everyone, etc.

If your talents are not a good fit to contribute on the web, start a discussion group locally and who knows, maybe you'll start a movement.

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mrkgnao: Here is a very incomplete list, that is nevertheless many thousand game long: https://steam.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games (need to click on all those pesky "expand" buttons to see the sublists, but the first two are the main ones).

...

No. There's a (very primitive) command-line tool (https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/SteamCMD) to download and install games. And you can write your own as their API is public, AFAIK.
Thanks for that resource. If there is a game that I REALLY want that's not here, I'll think about it (the Genesis compilations where tempting, but they are dead links it seems).

However, after having spent a lot of sweat coding my own client for GOG, I'm not in a hurry to code or tinker with another for a usage pattern that is not well supported.

May seem silly, but as basic professional hygiene, I really prefer not to install convoluted software if I don't have to (for game installers, I'll make an exception given their entertainment value). So, if a store wants to me install a big clunky piece of software to access my purchases, its a tough sell for me.

I got pulled by the web in a big way for a reason. I don't even want to imagine what it would be like if every website I visited had their own client to install instead.
Post edited April 09, 2021 by Magnitus
Posted April 09, 2021
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mrkgnao: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/SteamCMD
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Magnitus: Thanks for that resource. If there is a game that I REALLY want that's not here, I'll think about it
Btw, I don't know if you did or did not but if it's the latter then you should read my post
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/boycotting_gog_2021/post1986
and
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/boycotting_gog_2021/post1988
since they contain very relevant info associated with your cause.

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Magnitus: However, after having spent a lot of sweat coding my own client for GOG, I'm not in a hurry to code or tinker with another for a usage pattern that is not well supported.
1.Tools already exist so there is no need. The tool I linked myself in one of above posts is literally designed solely for downloading game files without usage of "normal" Steam.
2.I assure you, Steam API is uncomparably more sophisticated and complicated than GOG API. You would have a hard time developing ANYTHING, let alone entirely from scratch. So don't bother especially since point 1 means there is already no need.

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Magnitus: May seem silly, but as basic professional hygiene, I really prefer not to install convoluted software if I don't have to (for game installers, I'll make an exception given their entertainment value). So, if a store wants to me install a big clunky piece of software to access my purchases, its a tough sell for me.
If by any chance you are including SteamCMD in the "big clunky" list then no, that one is not like that.
It is pretty slim tool meant mostly for administrative work associated with running Steam-distributed multiplayer games' multiplayer-session servers.
It is MADE and DESIGNED with that in mind (if you dig deep into Vavle's docs it should get clear really fast).
Therefore:
1.It is 100% commandline
2.It's crossplatform (at least Windows and Linux)
3.It contains almost exclusively tools associated to the tasks, therefore things like depot downloading, installing game server instances, and some others. List is extensive but it resolves around these administrative tasks. Therefore any unnneccesary client functionality is stripped from it. (I used the tool extensively in the past btw)

But as I said in one of my own linked above posts, it is implied depot downloading may no longer work through it.
Therefore you should use the tool I linked in one of those posts (Depot Downloader) instead (as it is confirmed working, designed specificly for the task, and therefore properly maintained).
Posted April 09, 2021
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What about proper consideration for the collateral damage to others?
Posted April 09, 2021
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Timboli: What about proper consideration for the collateral damage to others?
Not this nonsense again...
Posted April 09, 2021
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What about duty of care?

GOG have a duty of care to both customers and game providers and to shareholders.

GOG have to weigh up the pros and cons of actions they take, keeping in mind their responsibilities to others.

If something GOG do has a big impact on those they have a duty of care for, then that weighs more than a lesser impact to someone they don't yet have a duty of care to.

If game sales are lost at GOG because of an action they take, then it is not just GOG's loss, it is also a loss to those who provide their games here.

If a market gets closed down because of an action GOG take, then it is not just a financial loss to GOG, but also a huge impact on all the customers in that market who lose access to GOG, and to the providers who lose out on sales there.

And then there is the inevitable flow on effect to all customers.

Sometimes it just comes down to choosing the lesser of two evils.

Logic has to prevail.
Posted April 09, 2021
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Magnitus: Valuable proper guidelines of behavior tend to be established at some point BEFORE they become the norm.

Just because a lot of people think its a good idea to do something doesn't mean it is.

However, in this case, I think you'd find a fair amount of people who will find that words like "idiot" and "moron" are in bad taste when referring to a live person, let alone a leader. I mean, you think that will lead to a more enlightened rapport with the sizeable following said leader has? Do you think they're gonna go "Oh yeah, you're right, he's idiot. Why didn't I see it before? OMG!!!" or do you think they'll just get upset and more polarized?

So yes, while it may lead to disagreements, I stand firmly behind my "should" here.
I am not sure how to interpret this last sentence:
If it is "I believe in these values and they are my objectives and in this sense people should (etc)" - you are entitled to your opinion, mine may be different. (And the following response here doesnt matter.)

If it is however "I think using 'should' without making it clear what my implied objectives are is the right thing" then:
You promote an "enlightened rapport"? And you dont want them to not "get upset and more polarized"?
And then you even imply "may lead to disagreements".
From my POV those dont fit together: To achieve an 'enlightened rapport' its helpful to understand (relevant parts of) the other side. Not telling the other side what goals you imply but relying on them is at odds with that.

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Magnitus: Short of going political or coming with super dev-friendly drm-free alternatives to those corporate gaming platforms being established, I don't know what will.
If "corporations" are your issue - you may want to look at "Web 3.0". The means to (for example) create a fully decentralized shop will come. (But I dont see a way to enforce DRM free.)
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Magnitus: On the bright side, copyrights do expire at some point. Can't talk about future games, but for existing games here, in a generation or two, if they are successfully preserved by some people, they can be made available to all.
Copyright does (at least in US) not seem to prevent all ("legal") preservation - unless they got all the rights in the normal way for this?
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/internet_archive_makes_thousands_of_dos_games_free_including_master_of_orion/page1
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionBoycotting DRM and Game Censorship on GOG, 2021-2022(5216 posts) (5216 posts) 
(5216 posts)